Satan is a Socialist

[blackbird]

This is very relevant to Canada and our politics and what people believe.  It was reported that half of Canadians believe in Socialism.

If that is the case, we are in serious trouble.  We know the Liberal-NDP coalition seem to be pressing ahead with new Socialist programs.  Many people demand these programs and believe government is their caretaker from cradle to grave.  Canada is in big trouble because of all this.

The more taxation and intervention in the economy by the various levels of government, the less private entrepreneurship and investment there will be in the economy.   

"Satan a Socialist—Really?

Conspiracy Theory or Fundamental Truth of the Ages

Satan Is a Socialist stirs up a lot of social, political, and spiritual questions such as:

What are the real differences between free enterprise and socialism?

Just how important are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

What is the real cause of today’s turmoil in the streets and homes?

What does the Bible say about socialism/communism?

Dr. Jennifer B. Clark and her husband Dr. Dennis L. Clark take on this declaration that Satan is a socialist with forthright answers and bone-chilling conclusions that every citizen needs to know. Satan Is a Socialist will surely generate riots of souls and protests of spirits in all who care about their country."

Satan is a Socialist: Free Enterprise vs. Socialism: Dennis Clark, Jennifer Clark: 9780768459746: Books - Amazon.ca

Edited April 22 by blackbird

[blackbird]

You say "haha".  So you essentially laugh at the article.  

This is a good article refuting Socialism.

"Socialism is a societal system in which property, natural resources, and the means of production are owned and controlled by the state rather than by individuals or private companies. A basic belief of socialism is that society as a whole should share in all goods produced, as everyone lives in cooperation with one another. Various theories of socialism have been put forward from ancient times, including a form of Christian socialism.

The most prominent philosopher to argue in favor of socialism was Karl Marx, who taught that the driving factor behind all of human history is economics. Marx was born to German Jewish parents in 1818 and received his doctorate at age 23. He then embarked on a mission to prove that human identity is bound up in a person’s work and that economic systems totally control a person. Arguing that mankind survives by labor, Marx believed that human communities are created by the division of labor.

Marx saw the Industrial Revolution as changing the basic lifestyle of humanity, because, in Marx’s mind, those who had freely worked for themselves were now forced by economics to work in factories instead. This, Marx felt, stripped away their dignity and identity, and now they were reduced to mere slaves controlled by a powerful taskmaster. This perspective made the economics of capitalism the natural enemy of Marx’s brand of socialism.

Socialism seeks to do away with private property. Karl Marx surmised that capitalism emphasizes private property and, therefore, reduced ownership to the privileged few. Two separate “communities” emerged in Marx’s mind: the business owners, or the bourgeoisie; and the working class, or the proletariat. According to Marx, the bourgeoisie use and exploit the proletariat with the result that one person’s gain is another person’s loss. Moreover, Marx believed that the business owners influence lawmakers to ensure their interests are defended over the workers’ loss of dignity and rights. Last, Marx felt that religion is the “opiate of the masses,” which the rich use to manipulate the working class; the proletariat is promised rewards in heaven one day if they keep working diligently where God has placed them (subservient to the bourgeoisie).

In the socialism Marx envisioned, the people own everything collectively, and all work for the common good of mankind. Marx’s goal was to end the ownership of private property through the state’s ownership of all means of economic production. Once private property was abolished, Marx felt that a person’s identity would be elevated and the wall that capitalism supposedly constructed between the owners and working class would be shattered. Everyone would value one another and work together for a shared purpose. Government would no longer be necessary, as people would become less selfish.

There are at least four errors in Marx’s thinking, revealing some flaws in socialism. First, his assertion that another person’s gain must come at another person’s expense is a myth; the structure of capitalism leaves plenty of room for all to raise their standard of living through innovation and competition. It is perfectly feasible for multiple parties to compete and do well in a market of consumers who want their goods and services.

Second, Marx was wrong in his socialist belief that the value of a product is based on the amount of labor that is put into it. The quality of a good or service simply cannot be determined by the amount of effort a laborer expends. For example, a master carpenter can more quickly and beautifully make a piece of furniture than an unskilled craftsmen can, and therefore his work will be valued far more (and correctly so) in an economic system such as capitalism.

Third, Marx’s theory of socialism necessitates a government that is free from corruption and negates the possibility of elitism within its ranks. If history has shown anything, it is that power corrupts fallen mankind, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. People do not naturally become less selfish. A nation or government may kill the idea of God, but someone will take God’s place in that government. That someone is most often an individual or group who begins to rule over the population and seeks to maintain their privileged position at all costs. This is why socialism has led to dictatorships so often in world history.

Fourth and most importantly, socialism is wrong in teaching that a person’s identity is bound up in the work that he does. Although secular society certainly promotes this belief, the Bible says that all have equal worth because all are created in the image of the eternal God. True, intrinsic human value lies in God’s creation of us.

Was Marx right in saying that economics is the catalyst that drives human history? No, what directs human history is the Creator of the universe who controls everything, including the rise and fall of every nation. God also controls who is put in charge of each nation: “The Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whom He wishes and sets over it the lowliest of men” (Daniel 4:17). Further, it is God who gives a person skill at labor and the wealth that comes from it, not the government: “Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God” (Ecclesiastes 5:18–19).

Socialism, for all its popularity in some circles, is not a biblical model for society. In opposition to socialism, the Bible promotes the idea of private property and issues commands to respect it: commands such as “You shall not steal” (Deuteronomy 5:19) are meaningless without private property. Unlike what we see in failed experiments in socialism, the Bible honors work and teaches that individuals are responsible to support themselves: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10). The redistribution of wealth foundational to socialism destroys accountability and the biblical work ethic. Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25:14–30 clearly teaches our responsibility to serve God with our (private) resources."

How should a Christian view socialism? | GotQuestions.org

Edited April 22 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

Satan is a fictional character.  So this is a thought exercise but not done for any reason of exploring or discussing with people who disagree.

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Satan is a fictional character.

That requires a longer reply, but just to let you know briefly, what you say is exactly what he wants you to believe.  If you believed he really existed, he would be concerned but the fact you don't believe he exists gives him great assurance that he can operate much more freely without hindrance or opposition.

 

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So this is a thought exercise but not done for any reason of exploring or discussing with people who disagree.

Why not?   We are discussing it right now.  Nothing stopping anyone from discussing it in any way.  You just stated your reason for disagreeing.

[Moonbox]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Why not?   We are discussing it right now.  Nothing stopping anyone from discussing it in any way.  You just stated your reason for disagreeing.

Nobody's discussing your OP.  Nobody's going to read it.  Even if people don't immediately dismiss the post just by its title and the reputation and tendencies of its author, they certainly will when that wall of text assaults their senses.  

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Nobody's discussing your OP.  Nobody's going to read it.  Even if people don't immediately dismiss the post just by its title and the reputation and tendencies of its author, they certainly will when that wall of text assaults their senses.  

Several people already read and they replied as did you.  You are perfectly welcome to read or not read anything, and reply or not reply.  It's a freedom we still have.  If atheists had their way there would be no freedom of choice.

You can close your eyes to truth, but that doesn't prove or mean it is not a fact.  

You would be much wiser to read all sides of any subject in order to understand other points of view.

Closing your mind to other views is not going to give you much opportunity in the world to enlighten yourself.

[blackbird]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Satan is a fictional character.

Many would disagree with you.  If you look at the kind of world we live in, you would have to admit there is something more behind it all.  Perhaps you need to broaden you thinking.

"The Bible explicitly informs us of the existence of Satan. He is described as the enemy of man (Genesis 3:15), the father of lies (John 8:44b), and the accuser (Revelation 12:10), among other things. The very name “Satan” means “adversary.” Isaiah 14:12–17 explains that Satan was originally an angelic being, but he decided he wanted the honor and worship due only to God and was thrown out of heaven (also see Ezekiel 28:11–17).

Ever since he was cast out of heaven (along with the angels who chose to rebel with him), Satan has made it his purpose to oppose God and lead the people of earth into rebellion as well. Satan has a certain authority in this world; he is called “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and “the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). That’s why we are to “be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8)."

Does Satan exist? | GotQuestions.org

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1. That requires a longer reply, but just to let you know briefly, what you say is exactly what he wants you to believe.  If you believed he really existed, he would be concerned but the fact you don't believe he exists gives him great assurance that he can operate much more freely without hindrance or opposition.

2. Why not?   We are discussing it right now.  Nothing stopping anyone from discussing it in any way.  You just stated your reason for disagreeing.

 

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

3. Many would disagree with you. 

4. If you look at the kind of world we live in, you would have to admit there is something more behind it all.  Perhaps you need to broaden you thinking.

5. "The Bible explicitly informs us of the existence of Satan. He is described as the enemy of man (Genesis 3:15), the father of lies (John 8:44b), and the accuser (Revelation 12:10), among other things. The very name “Satan” means “adversary.” Isaiah 14:12–17 explains that Satan was originally an angelic being, but he decided he wanted the honor and worship due only to God and was thrown out of heaven (also see Ezekiel 28:11–17).

6. Ever since he was cast out of heaven (along with the angels who chose to rebel with him), Satan has made it his purpose to oppose God and lead the people of earth into rebellion as well. Satan has a certain authority in this world; he is called “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and “the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). That’s why we are to “be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8)."

Does Satan exist? | GotQuestions.org

1. I reject your premise outright.
2. If me rejecting your idea right out of the gate is "discussing it" then sure... but it's not going anywhere.
3. I don't care.  It's not a basis for discussion with the public.
4. I have developed ideas of the causes that don't rely on faith.  I don't share yours so there's no point in discussing it, again.
5. 6. It's all nonsense and superstition.  Respectfully, you have to take your private faith out of the discussion if you want to move forward.  

I checked.  This says 37% of Canadians believe in Satan.  I'm stunned but it's still a minority.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/14083/divine-subjects-canadians-believe-britons-skeptical.aspx#:~:text=When it comes to the,believe that the devil exists.

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

5. 6. It's all nonsense and superstition. 

That's the go-to line of atheists.

You need to do some studying to learn something about it.  If you just throw out stock phrases like that of course it is just paraphrasing atheistic lines and ideology.  I gave a good explanation about why Socialism is wrong.  If you don't read articles that have a spiritual or biblical dimension to them, you are missing out on the most important issue of life.  That sounds more like diehard atheism or Socialist ideology. 

I still have hope for you my friend.  I don't consider you an opponent, but as one who likes to discuss things.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1. That's the go-to line of atheists.

2. You need to do some studying to learn something about it.  If you just throw out stock phrases like that of course it is just paraphrasing atheistic lines and ideology. 

3. I gave a good explanation about why Socialism is wrong.  If you don't read articles that have a spiritual or biblical dimension to them, you are missing out on the most important issue of life.  That sounds more like diehard atheism or Socialist ideology. 

4. I still have hope for you my friend.  I don't consider you an opponent, but as one who likes to discuss things.

1. Yes.
2. I know how the devil came into the public imagination but it's not relevant to 63% of us so a non-starter.  I was brought up deeply religious and theistic.
3. Fine but you still have to deal with me as a member of the public.  So you can spend your time trying to convert me if you think that's my core problem.  Respectfully, I'm well past being converted.
4. I don't consider anyone on here an opponent.  Not even trolls and chuds.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Several people already read and they replied as did you.  You are perfectly welcome to read or not read anything, and reply or not reply.

One other person replied, but nobody read your post. 

[Queenmandy85]

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

Just how important are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

What has adeclaration of independence got to do with anything? 

How does the BNA Act and the Canada Act have anything to do with Satan? 

You should have posted this in the American section. They are going to elect the Anti-Christ in November.

Edited April 22 by Queenmandy85

[DUI_Offender]

The thread title made me LOL.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I know how the devil came into the public imagination but it's not relevant to 63% of us so a non-starter. 

It is understandable why you would try to distance yourself from the basic premise and say it is not relevant.  Nobody wants to be seen supporting or associated with something evil, in this case Socialism.

[impartialobserver]

this thread is too funny. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What has adeclaration of independence got to do with anything? 

How does the BNA Act and the Canada Act have anything to do with Satan? 

You should have posted this in the American section. They are going to elect the Anti-Christ in November.

"These expansions of the national federal government through direct regulation under the Commerce Clause or by the indirect influence of federal dollars threaten a concentration of power that could make socialism possible. "

Socialism Vs. The American Constitution | Hoover Institution Socialism Vs. The American Constitution

In Canada, the Federal government under Trudeau has been accused of encroaching on provincial jurisdictions.  It appears Trudeau and the Federal government are trying to increase their powers over provinces and impose their ideology on the whole country.  That could be a form of creeping Socialism.

Since the BNA act defines federal and provincial powers and jurisdictions, it is fair to say it has a lot to do with the Socialist tendencies and policies of the different levels of government.

 

[herbie]

Rent a tent and hold a Bible thumping revival on a vacant lot. You might find people who'll listen to your twisted nonsense.

[BeaverFever]

Actually Jesus was a socialist. Satan was a far-right populist.  

[Queenmandy85]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

It appears Trudeau and the Federal government are trying to increase their powers over provinces and impose their ideology on the whole country.  That could be a form of creeping Socialism.

 

You don't have to worry about creeping socialism. If socialism is going to make it, it is going to have to be ultrasonic. Very soon, the grits will be out and the CPC will be in. You can start to relax. 

"After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Orson Welles as Harry Lyme in the Third Man.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 "... The cuckoo clock."

Orson Welles as Harry Lyme in the Third Man.

I remember that quote. It's not very strong in terms of argument though. 

Lyme was a psycho...

[impartialobserver]

interesting how the bible can have commentary on socialism when the term did not even come about until 1832 or so. From there, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels brought into the greater light with the publication of Das Kapital in 1867. 

[Gaétan]

20 hours ago, blackbird said:

This is very relevant to Canada and our politics and what people believe.  It was reported that half of Canadians believe in Socialism.

If that is the case, we are in serious trouble.  We know the Liberal-NDP coalition seem to be pressing ahead with new Socialist programs.  Many people demand these programs and believe government is their caretaker from cradle to grave.  Canada is in big trouble because of all this.

The more taxation and intervention in the economy by the various levels of government, the less private entrepreneurship and investment there will be in the economy.   

"Satan a Socialist—Really?

Conspiracy Theory or Fundamental Truth of the Ages

Satan Is a Socialist stirs up a lot of social, political, and spiritual questions such as:

What are the real differences between free enterprise and socialism?

Just how important are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

What is the real cause of today’s turmoil in the streets and homes?

What does the Bible say about socialism/communism?

Dr. Jennifer B. Clark and her husband Dr. Dennis L. Clark take on this declaration that Satan is a socialist with forthright answers and bone-chilling conclusions that every citizen needs to know. Satan Is a Socialist will surely generate riots of souls and protests of spirits in all who care about their country."

Satan is a Socialist: Free Enterprise vs. Socialism: Dennis Clark, Jennifer Clark: 9780768459746: Books - Amazon.ca

Do you think Satan would share his wealth with poor? No, Satan is a right wing capitalist and you don't have freedom if you have nothing to eat which is exactly what would happen if there would be no socialism.

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Satan is a fictional character.  So this is a thought exercise but not done for any reason of exploring or discussing with people who disagree.

Are you sure?

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Do you think Satan would share his wealth with poor? No, Satan is a right wing capitalist and you don't have freedom if you have nothing to eat which is exactly what would happen if there would be no socialism.

"

All Forms of Socialism Are Theft

Central to the moral argument against socialism and quasi-socialism is the 8th commandment: 

You shall not steal (Exodus 20:15; Deuteronomy 5:19).

This command teaches the concept of private property and forbids the taking of property from an innocent person. God added to this condemnation of socialism by prohibiting envy in the 10th commandment:

You shall not covet (Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21).  

God is a capitalist, which we know because God endorses private property. This is inferred from the 8th commandment. The prohibition of theft assumes that people own things. Of course, everything in this world belongs to God. Yet He has delegated control and responsibility of things to individuals. We call this private property rights."

The Bible Prohibits Socialism — Knowing Scripture

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

interesting how the bible can have commentary on socialism when the term did not even come about until 1832 or so. From there, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels brought into the greater light with the publication of Das Kapital in 1867. 

It is not necessary for the Bible to use the word "Socialism".  The Bible condemns the ideology.  The right to own private property is a very basic belief that is taught by the commandment "thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not covet".  Socialism is theft.