From the River to the Sea - Apologist Meaning

[WestCanMan]

If you look on CBC and Al Jazeera, you get the same propaganda about the meaning of the phrase in the title: ""From the River to the Sea" is a ❤️cutesy❤️ little slogan, meaning that everyone will sing Kumbaya together as soon as the Israelis just give Palestinians the right to live freely in any part of Israel."

According to CB-Jazeera, the people in the Palestinian Authority and Hamas who give out pensions and large stipends to the fine folks who commit terrorist attacks against the Israelis, and who preach various versions of the phrase "We ❤️ death more than the Jews love life", really just want peace & friendship. Beheading, torturing and raping Israeli women & children and dropping 10,000 bombs on Israel is just the Palestinian way of showing it.

It's just like when people used to move to a new home, and the neighbourhood "Welcome Wagon" would come along and rape the lady of the household, then kill one of the children, in a gesture of friendship, and the new arrivals with be flush with joy.

I'm so glad that CBC and Al Jazeera clarified that for us. I had a really awkward misunderstanding of what that slogan actually meant, but now I see the logic of it all. 

Q: does "Kumabaya mean "May your wives be raped and your children murdered?" CBC and Al Jazeera didn't write an article to clear that up yet.  

Edited December 7, 2023 by WestCanMan

[Michael Hardner]

You haven't given a fair summary of what the CBC article says about it.  From the CBC:

""When someone says from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, I question, 'Where do you see the Jews going?'" said Yair Szlak, president and CEO of Montreal-based Federation CJA. "That is hate speech, right, because it is into the sea that they seek to send the Jews.""

The rest of your post is glib and self-righteous.  This is a pretty serious issue and, frankly, your sing-song girly tone is disgusting.  But that's why I have you on ignore.

The main reason I came on here is because of the topic.  My impression when first reading that slogan was that it meant "no more Israel".  And as such, of course I feel it's reasonable for the slogan to be interpreted that way.  So if people are using that slogan, they're using it offensively and nothing more.

The way to take down conflict is to build common ground and remove divisiveness word by word.  

Some people love playing up conflict because they don't have to live with it, or maybe because they don't think a better world is possible.  I don't know.

[WestCanMan]

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You haven't given a fair summary of what the CBC article says about it.  From the CBC:

""When someone says from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, I question, 'Where do you see the Jews going?'" said Yair Szlak, president and CEO of Montreal-based Federation CJA. "That is hate speech, right, because it is into the sea that they seek to send the Jews.""

The rest of your post is glib and self-righteous.  This is a pretty serious issue and, frankly, your sing-song girly tone is disgusting.  But that's why I have you on ignore.

The main reason I came on here is because of the topic.  My impression when first reading that slogan was that it meant "no more Israel".  And as such, of course I feel it's reasonable for the slogan to be interpreted that way.  So if people are using that slogan, they're using it offensively and nothing more.

The way to take down conflict is to build common ground and remove divisiveness word by word.  

Some people love playing up conflict because they don't have to live with it, or maybe because they don't think a better world is possible.  I don't know.

Dude, that's like making excuses for racial slurs. 

Do you honestly think that the angry mobs are out there chanting slogans of unity? Do you think that the quds day protesters aren't at those rallies, starting those chants? 

Get real MH. Making a veiled threat of genocide is not cool. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

1. Dude, that's like making excuses for racial slurs.  Do you honestly think that the angry mobs are out there chanting slogans of unity? Do you think that the quds day protesters aren't at those rallies, starting those chants? 

1. I didn't say what they're thinking nor would I.  I'm not interested in arrogance such as telling people what they think ... staying something then adding "and you know it".  Good for you if you can read the mind of a mob.  

My take on it is as I said:  if people are using that slogan, they're using it offensively and nothing more.

[I am Groot]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

My take on it is as I said:  if people are using that slogan, they're using it offensively and nothing more.

Pretty sure that when Hamas and its supporters use it they mean 'we're gonna kill all the fockin Jews and take their land".

 

[DUI_Offender]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:30 PM, Michael Hardner said:

The rest of your post is glib and self-righteous.  This is a pretty serious issue and, frankly, your sing-song girly tone is disgusting.  But that's why I have you on ignore.
 

You mean that we can ignore certain users?

[Nationalist]

6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

You mean that we can ignore certain users?

Yes. It's a cowards way of avoiding conflicting ideas but, yes.

From the river to the sea means to rid that sliver of land of Jewish people. It's always meant that. To use the term and then feign innocence is as cowardly as using ignore.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

You mean that we can ignore certain users?

On your phone menu, go to account then ignored users

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Pretty sure that when Hamas and its supporters use it they mean 'we're gonna kill all the fockin Jews and take their land".

It’s Time to Confront Israel’s Version of “From the River to the Sea”

Far from being a mere slogan, the phrase captures both the longtime ambitions of the Israeli right and the reality Israel has imposed on Palestine since 1967.

Meanwhile, Israeli ministers were talking about inflicting “Nakba 2023” on Gaza (an echo of Israel’s 1948 ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians)

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/its-time-to-confront-israels-version-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

It’s Time to Confront Israel’s Version of “From the River to the Sea”

Given most Israelis have lived their entire lives surrounded by hostile, fanatic Arabs, knowing that every day they're trying to sneak through, around, under or over Israel's fences, walls, and borders just to kill a Jew it's not really a surprise some Israelis absolutely despise Arabs. 

And given the nature of Israel's pizza parliament and the necessity of including very tiny parties in their coalition it's hardly a surprise you get the same kind of statements from some of them as we routinely hear from Palestinian and Arab leaders.

[Nationalist]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Given most Israelis have lived their entire lives surrounded by hostile, fanatic Arabs, knowing that every day they're trying to sneak through, around, under or over Israel's fences, walls, and borders just to kill a Jew it's not really a surprise some Israelis absolutely despise Arabs. 

And given the nature of Israel's pizza parliament and the necessity of including very tiny parties in their coalition it's hardly a surprise you get the same kind of statements from some of them as we routinely hear from Palestinian and Arab leaders.

This is true.

Israel had its chance to do something definitive. They failed. Now...I think the smartest thing for us to do is surround them and let them "Duke it out".

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Given most Israelis have lived their entire lives surrounded by hostile, fanatic Arabs, knowing that every day they're trying to sneak through, around, under or over Israel's fences, walls, and borders just to kill a Jew it's not really a surprise some Israelis absolutely despise Arabs.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Palestinians in the West Bank feel the same way about Israelis.

Quote

And given the nature of Israel's pizza parliament and the necessity of including very tiny parties in their coalition it's hardly a surprise you get the same kind of statements from some of them as we routinely hear from Palestinian and Arab leaders. 

More to the point though, these are routinely hard-line right-wing religious-conservatives. This is why I routinely point that only secular moderate left-wing progressives can lead the region towards a path to peace.

Given the hopeless relationship between the right and left amongst Israel's allies it's easy to see why Netanyahu says this is a global struggle.  But of course that's what he wants - it's what Hamas and its allies want too.

[I am Groot]

72% of Palestinians polled support the Hamas Oct 7 attack.

https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/most-of-palestine-approves-of-oct-7-terrorist-invasion-of-israel-poll-shows-middle-east-conflict-terrorism-gaza-strip

Edited December 14, 2023 by I am Groot

[myata]

The reason this topic is so popular with would be right wingers - conservatives is that it is ambiguous: one can fish long, and hard in the muddy waters, and the longer and harder the fishing goes, the longer one can talk and preach.

Take another example though: a sovereign independent nation, fully recognized in its sovereign borders by the UN and the entire world; peaceful, never attacked anyone; a victim of an aggression of unprecedented since the times of WWII malice and brutality, and look: where are the principles, the rightful indignity? They just steamed and fizzled miraculously, like from a punctured balloon. What happened dears? Is Hitler a hitler or a "genius"? Can you figure that one out, before heading into the new rightful crusades?

Why? There's one easy explanation: this folk couldn't care  less about the Jews and Palestine, no more than "babies" another favorite topic of theirs. All they really care about is the control and power. If you're are naive or stupid to take a single word of their for a true coin you will regret it, and probably, pay long and hard for it, the stupidity, based on long and painful experience. A bunch of pumped up liars and hypocrites, and this is just the objective facts, reality.

Edited December 14, 2023 by myata

[BeaverFever]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:27 PM, WestCanMan said:

If you look on CBC and Al Jazeera, you get the same propaganda about the meaning of the phrase in the title: ""From the River to the Sea" is a ❤️cutesy❤️ little slogan, meaning that everyone will sing Kumbaya together as soon as the Israelis just give Palestinians the right to live freely in any part of Israel."

According to CB-Jazeera, the people in the Palestinian Authority and Hamas who give out pensions and large stipends to the fine folks who commit terrorist attacks against the Israelis, and who preach various versions of the phrase "We ❤️ death more than the Jews love life", really just want peace & friendship. Beheading, torturing and raping Israeli women & children and dropping 10,000 bombs on Israel is just the Palestinian way of showing it.

It's just like when people used to move to a new home, and the neighbourhood "Welcome Wagon" would come along and rape the lady of the household, then kill one of the children, in a gesture of friendship, and the new arrivals with be flush with joy.

I'm so glad that CBC and Al Jazeera clarified that for us. I had a really awkward misunderstanding of what that slogan actually meant, but now I see the logic of it all. 

Q: does "Kumabaya mean "May your wives be raped and your children murdered?" CBC and Al Jazeera didn't write an article to clear that up yet.  

And yet here is Netanyahu on Israeli TV rejecting any 2-state solution EVER and declaring “In the future, Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea.'

 

Also

note that most of the so-called liberal leftist anti-Israel pro-terrorist conspiracy western media chose to mistranslate this line of his speech as “west of the Jordan River”, including The Guardian, The Associated Press, and Al Jazeera   Not that it makes much of a different statement either way.   

The Israeli news outlet covering the speech quickly deleted its link to the video after it started getting attention but it had already gone viral  

Another nail in the coffin of so-called left-biased media conspiracy claims . 

[WestCanMan]

10 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

And yet here is Netanyahu on Israeli TV rejecting any 2-state solution EVER and declaring “In the future, Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea."

He could have just said "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me", right?

Don't worry, I know that was over your head. Just pretend to have another tantrum.

Quote

Another nail in the coffin of so-called left-biased media conspiracy claims . 

Who said there were "claims"? What 'coffin'?

The TNI members acknowledge that they're part of that group, dummy. It's not a figment of my imagination: the only reason I even say the the words "Trusted News Initiative" is because they said that they're in it. No doubt CNN and MSNBC are in it too, but the group doesn't want to lose all credibility in one instant. 

They all went lock-step with "mostly peaceful protests", BSL4, HCQ IZ DETH, laptop, the vaxes will be safe and effective, Israeli ICU data, say "pangolin-bat-human" or you're a Q-Anon conspiracist, kids need the jab, 2022 covid death toll, if you vax you're safe, FBI crimes,  etc, etc.

There's way more, but the point is already made:

1. there are 11 items there that the media was all 100%-in on,
2. they all completely ruled out the possibility of any grey area in every one of those stories,
3. and they turned out to be 100% wrong every time. 

If they were all doing independent reporting then they wouldn't have all come to the exact same counterintuitive conclusions 11 times in a row and then ridiculed everyone who wanted to discuss the possibility of any other possibilities. 

There's only a 1/4096 chance for two people to make the same 50/50 decision 11 times in a row, but there are a dozen outlets in there. The chance that they all just randomly had the exact same opinion every time (and ended up being dead wrong every single time) is way beyond astronomical, and believe me, it was just an opinion to say "it had to be the pangolin thing". And even if they all had that opinion, why would they all agree that saying the word "BSL4" was heresy? Why were they soooo against it?

Goebbels would give those guys an A+ for lying if they were lying, and you gotta admit - they were all conveniently and emphatically wrong about every single thing on that list. Even with HCQ, because the whole point with HCQ was that it should have at least been able to be discussed. It's pretty weird that every single member of that group was 1,000% certain in advance that HCQ would flop but somehow they were all 1,000% believers in the vax even before the first trial. What are they: the world's harshest skeptics or the most credulous dolts?

Even weirder is that Trump was pimping the vax as part of the Operation Warp Speed program, and it's literally the only thing that Trump ever had a hand in where their knee-jerk reaction wasn't to flame it. 

If Trump pulled a baby from burning car they'd all say: "It was God's will that the baby burned to death. He should have left it alone!" But when he pushed an mRNA vaccine, which had been considered extremely dangerous before that point, they all said "ALL HAIL THE VAX! ALL HAIL THE VAX! ALL HAIL THE VAX!" Then they backed it through all its side effects, and then after every back-peddle they pretended that was the plan all along... "We knew people would get infected, and that they could pass covid along to granny. We knew people would end up in the hospital. We knew they'd end up in ICU. We knew that they'd die." No they f'ing didn't. Or at least they pretended that they didn't. They even lied and pretended that vaxed people weren't dying at first ffs.  

The rubes on this site didn't believe me when I told them that vaxed people were dying of covid. Just like they didn't believe the FBI committed actual crimes, pled guilty, and still got away with it.

This is the part where you go silent, or make a snotty insult, but one thing's for certain: you don't have the balls to talk about anything like an adult. 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

He could have just said "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me", right?

Don't worry, I know that was over your head. Just pretend to have another tantrum.

He’s fooling himself if he thinks permanent occupation is the key to peace. That’s like saying the key to a happy marriage is to regularly beat your wife until she agrees to love you. Oppression doesn’t just lead to noble MLK/Ghandi style peaceful resistance it leads to horrifying terrorism that nobody should support. I don’t support Hamas at all and I hope that they are all killed or captured but I’m also intelligent enough to understand it’s the predictable result of Israeli oppression. 
 

As for your TNI / covid batshit it’s exactly that batshit. I get it you prefer to get your info from social messenger bots. But do you know your hero Trump takes credit for saving “millions” of lives developing and rilling out vaccines under operation warp speed?  How do you reconcile that fact?

Edited January 20 by BeaverFever

[Michael Hardner]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:38 PM, I am Groot said:

Pretty sure that when Hamas and its supporters use it they mean 'we're gonna kill all the fockin Jews and take their land".

It's a fair assumption. I'm just talking about trying to defend the use of it, peace and how people like me would perceive it.

They can defend their use of it, but it's still going to be perceived as you say.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

I think a lot of people in North America are genuinely ignorant about Likud’s implacable hostility to a two state solution. There are two reasons for this. Party leaders in Israel took care not to emphasize it in their speeches and interviews in English and American journalists, anxious to avoid trouble, took care not to publicize it. Here’s the party platform from nearly fifty years ago:

Quote

The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977

 

Above all his predecessors, Netanyahu has played this game of ambiguity in English similar to the nuclear weapons policy. But now the mask is off. Why not divide Democrats over Gaza and help his buddy Trump if he can? 

Edited January 20 by SpankyMcFarland

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

He’s fooling himself if he thinks permanent occupation is the key to peace. That’s like saying the key to a happy marriage is to regularly beat your wife until she agrees to love you. Oppression doesn’t just lead to noble MLK/Ghandi style peaceful resistance it leads to horrifying terrorism that nobody should support. I don’t support Hamas at all and I hope that they are all killed or captured but I’m also intelligent enough to understand it’s the predictable result of Israeli oppression. 

You're stupid if you think that a sovereign Gaza is possible now.

It's possible that muslims will just never let Jews have an inch of sovereign territory anywhere, regardless of what happens in Gaza, but Gaza is a non-starter now. They proved it by celebrating the burning deaths of children and the raping and murdering of women.

Quote

As for your TNI / covid batshit it’s exactly that batshit.

They all admitted to being a part of it, stupid, so what does that make you?

I showed you where they were all in lock-step 11x in a row and they all turned out to be dead wrong every time. Not only were they wrong, they ridiculed everyone who dared go against their narratives, censored, banned people from social media, etc.  

You have no answer for any of it, just a snotty insult.

You lose, child. Go hide under your blankie for another week. 

[OftenWrong]

21 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Why not divide Democrats over Gaza and help his buddy Trump if he can? 

Sure, it's always the right-wingers fault, eh? Here we go again. They're the ones who are dividing the Dems. And Trump... that bad old meanie, what would he do? Did he say what his plan would be?

“Under my leadership, the United States stood in complete solidarity with Israel, and as a result, Israel was safe, America was safe, and for the first time in decades, we made historic strides for Peace in the Middle East. As an example, all of the experts said that the Abraham Accords couldn’t be done, but we got them done, and were able to set the Middle East in a new and positive direction.

Crooked Joe Biden’s weakness and incompetence has empowered and emboldened our enemies all over the World, and now, many lives have been so needlessly lost. Biden sent 6 Billion Dollars to Iran, in a simple hostage swap, when Iran is the state sponsor of terrorist groups, Hamas, Hezbollah, and others.

Biden’s massive loosening of sanctions allowed 80 - 100 Billion Dollars of Iranian oil sales—much of which the regime poured into financing its bloody campaigns of terror around the globe. When I was President, and exclusively because of me, Iran was BROKE, and wanting to make a deal. No wonder the World is in absolute chaos!"

 

[OftenWrong]

For all those who FORGOT or are OFFENDED by his lack of decorum, or the COLOUR OF HIS HAIR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords

"The Abraham Accords are bilateral agreements on Arab–Israeli normalization signed between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain on September 15, 2020. The official signing ceremony was hosted by the Trump administration at the White House. As part of the dual agreements, both the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain recognized Israel's sovereignty, enabling the establishment of full diplomatic relations. Israel's agreement with the United Arab Emirates marked the first instance of Israel establishing diplomatic relations with an Arab country since 1994.

The Abraham Accords were signed by the Bahraini and Emirati foreign ministers and Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, with American president Donald Trump as a witness.

Background: On January 28, 2020, the Trump administration unveiled its Israeli–Palestinian peace proposal in a ceremony at the White House. A component of the plan envisioned applying Israeli law to, or annexation of, roughly 30% of the West Bank.   Etc.

....

There was a chance, but now it's gone.

 

[BeaverFever]

15 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You're stupid if you think that a sovereign Gaza is possible now.

It's possible that muslims will just never let Jews have an inch of sovereign territory anywhere, regardless of what happens in Gaza, but Gaza is a non-starter now. They proved it by celebrating the burning deaths of children and the raping and murdering of women.

Not a sovereign Gaza, a sovereign PALESTINE. Israel had a hand in helping Gaza fall into the hands of Hamas because 20 years ago they figured it would weaken the secular Palestinian Authority, who was Israel’s main counterpart at the time, and also put a more extremist face on the Palestinian people therefore justifying further avoidance of peace talks. Israel assumed that Hamas extremism and terrorism could be “managed” and “contained”. 

Israel has decades of peace and partnership with Egypt, Jordan amd even covert partnerships with Saudi Arabia which prior to Oct 7 was about to become official and public 

 

Peace is possible but the extremists who are currently in control on both sides need to be marginalized amd repudiated. Until then will just be more of the same, which is exactly what the extremists want. 

[BeaverFever]

22 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Sure, it's always the right-wingers fault, eh? Here we go again. They're the ones who are dividing the Dems. And Trump... that bad old meanie, what would he do? Did he say what his plan would be?

“Under my leadership, the United States stood in complete solidarity with Israel, and as a result, Israel was safe, America was safe, and for the first time in decades, we made historic strides for Peace in the Middle East. As an example, all of the experts said that the Abraham Accords couldn’t be done, but we got them done, and were able to set the Middle East in a new and positive direction.

Crooked Joe Biden’s weakness and incompetence has empowered and emboldened our enemies all over the World, and now, many lives have been so needlessly lost. Biden sent 6 Billion Dollars to Iran, in a simple hostage swap, when Iran is the state sponsor of terrorist groups, Hamas, Hezbollah, and others.

Biden’s massive loosening of sanctions allowed 80 - 100 Billion Dollars of Iranian oil sales—much of which the regime poured into financing its bloody campaigns of terror around the globe. When I was President, and exclusively because of me, Iran was BROKE, and wanting to make a deal. No wonder the World is in absolute chaos!"

 

Trump is an idi0t and shameless liar, his bullshit boasts are not evidence of anything. 

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

Not a sovereign Gaza, a sovereign PALESTINE. Israel had a hand in helping Gaza fall into the hands of Hamas because 20 years ago they figured it would weaken the secular Palestinian Authority, who was Israel’s main counterpart at the time, and also put a more extremist face on the Palestinian people therefore justifying further avoidance of peace talks. Israel assumed that Hamas extremism and terrorism could be “managed” and “contained”. 

Israel has decades of peace and partnership with Egypt, Jordan amd even covert partnerships with Saudi Arabia which prior to Oct 7 was about to become official and public 

 

Peace is possible but the extremists who are currently in control on both sides need to be marginalized amd repudiated. Until then will just be more of the same, which is exactly what the extremists want. 

Silly boy.

You can't judge people by what they do when they're not in a position of power, and Egypt and SA were powerless to do anything to/about Israel. 

If a mouse walks past a lion and doesn't kill it, do you say "Oh, what a nice mouse"? 

Look at the 600 years before the Brits ended the Ottoman rule. How were Jews treated? 

Look how Mohammed treated Jews. 

Look what happens to women everywhere in the muslim world if they don't wear the hijab (at the very least)...

Those are all examples of what happens when muslims have power over other people. It's quite the opposite of what happens when they don't.