John Stone Posted January 6 Report Posted January 6 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: One day when we grow up maybe, or when the next crises gets here and forces us...which is how we role historically.. ............. Canada will likely be overtaken by global events long before that happens. Impossible geography to defend considering economics and population. Unfathomable why over the decades Canada didn't lean into it's own defense by honestly contributing to the bargain ($$) that was NATO. I say 'was' due to the fact that if Greenland is conceded, NATO is finished. Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 6 Report Posted January 6 On 1/5/2026 at 2:16 PM, Army Guy said: One day when we grow up maybe, or when the next crises gets here and forces us...which is how we role historically.. Do you think a NATO ally invading another NATO ally is a big enough crisis for us to grow up? Why would we buy American fighter jets if they’re willing to attack Greenland? Do you think we still should? Isn’t the Gripen the obvious choice now that the USA is willing to attack a fellow NATO country? Quote
Army Guy Posted January 6 Report Posted January 6 29 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Do you think a NATO ally invading another NATO ally is a big enough crisis for us to grow up? Why would we buy American fighter jets if they’re willing to attack Greenland? Do you think we still should? Isn’t the Gripen the obvious choice now that the USA is willing to attack a fellow NATO country? No i don't, don't be fooled by all this liberal rhetoric, we have heard it millions of times by both governments...promise the moon, deliver a piece of rock from your own back yard... Why , because they are one of the best fighter aircraft available to Canada at this time.....They are Gen 5 , while the Gripen is only Gen 4. Your talking about an event that has not even happened, much like our annexation....Why would you deny our young men and women the best aircraft in the world that is available to Canada right now, certainly not over a rumor or a what if event...So yes i think we should buy F-35's.... NO, i think there are plenty of other aircraft out there that would be 10 times the Gripen aircraft...Euro fighter, Rafale, both are getting upgrades, and are considered 4.5 gen ...The reason they dropped out of the competition was Canada was asking for to much off sets. So why would we buy an aircraft that at best placed 3 rd in the competition, after the Euro and Rafale dropped out...It makes no sense....with everyone's hatred of anything American, we have blinded ourselves to the next best choices....and some how the Gripen has this massive media campaign on...and Canadians have latched onto it as it was moms boobs. Let me ask you this What does happen when US decides to take Greenland....what is the world going to do ? condemn the act, which is most likely but that's as far as the world goes....NATO might even lose some of it's members....might even collapse....Which means nothing to America they for the most part are NATO, think of the money they would save.....Europe will have to stand up for itself, which would cost trillions....Canada is the next question mark...No way we can even think about defending off the US....do we run up the white flag ?....or do we bite the bullet and spend 5 % on defense because we would be on our own accord with perhaps a hostile neighbor to the south....... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
TreeBeard Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: What does happen when US decides to take Greenland....what is the world going to do ? condemn the act, which is most likely but that's as far as the world goes....NATO might even lose some of it's members....might even collapse.... I think it automatically collapses and there’s a NATO without the USA. Once that happens, why would we ever buy American jets? Quote
CdnFox Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: No i don't, don't be fooled by all this liberal rhetoric, we have heard it millions of times by both governments...promise the moon, deliver a piece of rock from your own back yard... Why , because they are one of the best fighter aircraft available to Canada at this time.....They are Gen 5 , while the Gripen is only Gen 4. Your talking about an event that has not even happened, much like our annexation....Why would you deny our young men and women the best aircraft in the world that is available to Canada right now, certainly not over a rumor or a what if event...So yes i think we should buy F-35's.... NO, i think there are plenty of other aircraft out there that would be 10 times the Gripen aircraft...Euro fighter, Rafale, both are getting upgrades, and are considered 4.5 gen ...The reason they dropped out of the competition was Canada was asking for to much off sets. So why would we buy an aircraft that at best placed 3 rd in the competition, after the Euro and Rafale dropped out...It makes no sense....with everyone's hatred of anything American, we have blinded ourselves to the next best choices....and some how the Gripen has this massive media campaign on...and Canadians have latched onto it as it was moms boobs. Let me ask you this What does happen when US decides to take Greenland....what is the world going to do ? condemn the act, which is most likely but that's as far as the world goes....NATO might even lose some of it's members....might even collapse....Which means nothing to America they for the most part are NATO, think of the money they would save.....Europe will have to stand up for itself, which would cost trillions....Canada is the next question mark...No way we can even think about defending off the US....do we run up the white flag ?....or do we bite the bullet and spend 5 % on defense because we would be on our own accord with perhaps a hostile neighbor to the south....... But regardless of how good it is you do not buy your military hardware from someone who's threatening to take you over. We have to look at other suppliers and that's just the way it is 1 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
eyeball Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 4 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Isn’t the Gripen the obvious choice now that the USA is willing to attack a fellow NATO country? Especially if they're stationed along our southern border. The immediacy of the threat to our sovereignty calls for a response that's greater than COVID and definitely faster. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
CdnFox Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 3 hours ago, eyeball said: Especially if they're stationed along our southern border. The immediacy of the threat to our sovereignty calls for a response that's greater than COVID and definitely faster. You elected the wrong government for that. 1 1 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
cougar Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 6 hours ago, TreeBeard said: I think it automatically collapses and there’s a NATO without the USA. Once that happens, why would we ever buy American jets? Then with Trump being such a good friend of Putin, it begs the question why at this exact moment of peace he wants to strengthen his defense against Russia. It seem like the States are more after acquiring resources and land that belong to other nations than anything else. Our best course of action may be to partner with Europe, Russia and China. I think the World , at this point, needs to kick this mad dog - USA, in the teeth before they go around and cause damage to other nations. Quote
eyeball Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 11 hours ago, CdnFox said: You elected the wrong government for that. Your guy would have caved to Trump months ago. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
CdnFox Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 2 hours ago, eyeball said: Your guy would have caved to Trump months ago. If that were true then he would have caved months after carney did. Carney was already caving as he finished the election. Nobody could have handled that whole situation worse than carney did. Since carney took over the file we've dropped all of our tariffs and the US has put tons of additional tariffs on us and is very likely to do more as CUSMA comes up Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Army Guy Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 20 hours ago, CdnFox said: But regardless of how good it is you do not buy your military hardware from someone who's threatening to take you over. We have to look at other suppliers and that's just the way it is We have had this conversation before, Well over 80 % of our weapon systems are American...that needs American support or American munitions, or spare parts.....If we were to pursue your thought process here we would have to spend hundreds of bils replacing all that equipment...are you ready to do that ? F-35 asides , the gripen is at best placed 3 rd in 3 competitions, there are still 2 other 4.5 gen aircraft out there that are European...but nobody is talking about those aircraft... As for trumps rhetoric it is what it is, just words....US is not going to annex or invade Canada, why would they want Canada for sh!t sake.......They are not the enemy.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 21 hours ago, TreeBeard said: I think it automatically collapses and there’s a NATO without the USA. Once that happens, why would we ever buy American jets? There might be a NATO, but it would be toothless, Europe is just beginning to rearm, it's militaries are for the lack of a better word toothless... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
TreeBeard Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 1 minute ago, Army Guy said: There might be a NATO, but it would be toothless, Europe is just beginning to rearm, it's militaries are for the lack of a better word toothless... You didn’t answer the question. If the USA invades another NATO country, why would Canada ever buy American jets? You’re downplaying the potential invasion of an ally. Why? Do you believe USA has a right to invade another NATO ally with impugnity? Should Canada join their cause? Quote
eyeball Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 1 hour ago, CdnFox said: Since carney took over the file we've dropped all of our tariffs and the US has put tons of additional tariffs on us and is very likely to do more as CUSMA comes up This simply underscores the reality no deal is possible with the US that doesn't include caving to whatever pops into their heads next. We've had a smaller impact to our inflation rate than the US because Carney didn't make us pay more for things. Meanwhile Canadians pulled a lot more weight for Canada with boycotts. I can only imagine how loud your whining would be after months of even higher costs from all the tariffs you want Carney to apply. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: You didn’t answer the question. If the USA invades another NATO country, why would Canada ever buy American jets? You’re downplaying the potential invasion of an ally. Why? Do you believe USA has a right to invade another NATO ally with impugnity? Should Canada join their cause? And i asked you , what is Canada or the rest of NATO going to do about it if they did take it militarily....I'm not down playing anything....what did the world do when Russia invaded Ukraine , send some of its old equipment, some money.....US is ten times the military, if they did invade the most that would happen is a lot of condemnation.... That's not what i said i said there is not much the free world could do, condemnation, maybe some sanctions. But right now there is a lot of sword rattling going on, and we already know Trump says what ever he wants, he is lacking any action....And if Trump does take Greenland by force, why would he stop with just Greenland, why not throw Canada in there as well...Who would come to our aid....NATO...the same organization that considers us Laggards, who have not taken NATO serious in over 30 years...it would be like a fly on a pigs A$$... I personally don't think anyone has the right to invade anything in these modern times... Should Canada join any cause....WHY ? what would we have to contribute ?...what would we gain ? we would be handing Canada over to them on a platter by giving them an excuse to take us by force....we would wake up to the American flag on the peace tower, with the American anthem playing in the back ground... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
TreeBeard Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 1 minute ago, Army Guy said: what is Canada or the rest of NATO going to do about it if they did take it militarily.. Nothing! I already said there’s nothing we or Europe could do to prevent it. 2 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I personally don't think anyone has the right to invade anything in these modern times.. So, if this happens, or if the threats continue, why would Canada continue to buy American jets? Quote
Army Guy Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 10 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Nothing! I already said there’s nothing we or Europe could do to prevent it. So, if this happens, or if the threats continue, why would Canada continue to buy American jets? SO, Canada would have some choices to make, we would have to decide who is going to be our allied...be it the US or what's left of NATO....lets remember who our economy is tied to, where we are located on the map, our choices are very limited and most of them involves the US...So why not buy American jets... The US has already drawn up a bill to separate from NATO, Not sure where this will go, but there is a lot of moving pieces...So Canada should be looking at which side the bread is buttered on...and it is not in Europe... https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2025/12/10/Rep-Massie-introduces-legislation-pull-out-nATO/2871765411266/#google_vignette Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Zeitgeist Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 (edited) On 1/6/2026 at 5:20 PM, TreeBeard said: Do you think a NATO ally invading another NATO ally is a big enough crisis for us to grow up? Why would we buy American fighter jets if they’re willing to attack Greenland? Do you think we still should? Isn’t the Gripen the obvious choice now that the USA is willing to attack a fellow NATO country? Our military aircraft should be completely independent of any foreign country’s control, NATO or otherwise, especially now that NATO could become a shambles very soon if the U.S. strong-arms an occupation of a NATO country. At the end of WW2 Canada had the 4th largest military and produced a significant amount of aircraft and armaments for the Allied Forces. Canada should’ve been one of the permanent members of the Security Council and had a veto at the UN, not France. Canadians gullibly relinquished that hard power to our allies. Pierre Trudeau prevented Canada from keeping nuclear missiles on Canadian soil, a very stupid move. Canada should have state of the art leading drone tech, nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers (we had two in WW2), and nuclear missiles. We once had the fastest aircraft in the world, which Diefenbaker foolishly scrapped to placate the Yanks. We were the third country to put a satellite in space. Canada cannot have true independence and independent foreign (and domestic) policy without independent hard power. Otherwise, let’s end this charade and become part of the U.S.. At least we would have US citizenship. With independent hard power and more economic independence we could negotiate an economic union of two countries or be more independent of the U.S. than we already are. Our current economic and military dependence makes us very vulnerable to U.S. takeover. The more independent power we have, the more leverage we have in any trade negotiations, potential economic union of the two countries, or even an eventual integration into the U.S.: i.e. There’s a big difference between 10 states and three territories with a Scotland-like bilingual parliament in Ottawa for Canadian affairs versus becoming 51st state or worse, a Puerto Rico-style protectorate. One would think that the U.S. Constitution prevents invasion of democratic countries and imposing control against the democratic wishes of the people, but the U.S. is behaving in worrisome might-is-right ways and seems to be promoting “spheres of influence” where China gets Taiwan, Russia gets Ukraine, and the U.S. gets __________. Only serious nuclear deterrence and the ability to raise the drawbridge economically can ensure self-determination if the U.S. becomes a failed democracy and seeks territorial expansion without the democratic agreement of targeted countries. Edited January 8 by Zeitgeist Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Army Guy said: and it is not in Europe... You are in favour of unilateral military strikes on NATO allies if you think Canada should stay an ally of USA. It’s obvious where we are leaning. The USA simply cannot be trusted. Europe are better allies. Edited January 7 by TreeBeard Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Canada should have state of the art leading drone tech, nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers (we had two in WW2), and nuclear missiles. Agreed. It will take a lot of taxes on the wealthy to get there, but I am on your side. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 17 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Agreed. It will take a lot of taxes on the wealthy to get there, but I am on your side. Be careful with overtaxing big business and the rich though, as history teaches that there’s a tipping point in taxation. We can’t afford to lose our most talented people and most successful businesses. The private sector must be the driver of employment and the economy for a free market economy to thrive. Otherwise you become Cuba. Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: Be careful with overtaxing big business and the rich though, as history teaches that there’s a tipping point in taxation. We can’t afford to lose our most talented people and most successful businesses. The private sector must be the driver of employment and the economy for a free market economy to thrive. Otherwise you become Cuba. Where do you think we will get the tax money for aircraft carriers? You think a big GST hike? Massive service cuts? What will get us $6B for a couple aircraft carriers + nuclear subs and a nuclear weapons program that will probably cost about $5B per year? (UK equivalent program) Quote
Legato Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 33 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Where do you think we will get the tax money for aircraft carriers? You think a big GST hike? Massive service cuts? What will get us $6B for a couple aircraft carriers + nuclear subs and a nuclear weapons program that will probably cost about $5B per year? (UK equivalent program) Stop sending money for gender bending crochet classes in Wakanda would be a start. 1 Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Legato said: Stop sending money for gender bending crochet classes in Wakanda would be a start. Yup. The Liberals have thrown hundreds of billions at DEI, identity politics organizations like Egale, commissions, inquiries, and international programs of dubious purpose. We need a Prime Directive that gets us out of non-essential stuff that the public never asked for. There should be a line by line audit. Scrap all the bureaucracy that’s accumulated since 2015. Our boated, costly, interventionist government gets in the way of individuals and free markets. Edited January 8 by Zeitgeist Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: hundreds of billions at DEI, commissions, inquiries, and international programs of dubious purpose. You exaggerate, of course. Thinking we spend as much on these programs as 2 aircraft carriers, nuclear subs and a nuclear weapons program is silly. It makes me think you’re not a serious interlocutor. Quote
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