Canada wrongly supports a "two-state" solution for Israel

[blackbird]

42 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What exactly is false in that Jeff Stein article about Pollard, a notorious traitor? To add insult to injury, PM Netanyahu personally met this enemy of America on his arrival in Israel at Ben Gurion airport.

I will take a look at your links.  I just want to say if people are trying to attack Israel in general or oppose their right to exist with these articles and videos, I don't accept it.  There can be legitimate issues with certain individuals but Israel has the right to exist and defend itself.

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Because the reason they believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist is a result of decades of war crimes Israel has committed. If Israel agreed to a two state solution, paid reparations, and started being a good neighbor to the other countries in the region, much fewer Arabs would be against Israel's existence.

What a load of bullshit.... Arabs as you call them, have had a bone to pick with Israelis since the inception of their country... and have made life for the average Israelis very difficult "which is an under statement" Palestinians are no more than a terrorist group that continue the fight with Israel becasue they have nothing better to do, than hate...

[blackbird]

43 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

whereby Palestinians will never be citizens of a country and will have zero rights in their shrinking West Bank enclaves

The problem is Palestinians in general don't accept Israel's right to exist.  The two-state idea would never work.  How can Israel deal with people who don't accept it's right to exist?  It is the Palestinians that don't allow their people to apply for Israel citizenship.  Without citizenship, of course they are not going to have the same rights as citizens.  Citizenship requires some loyalty to a country and a willingness to be lawful and supportive of a country.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What exactly is false in that Jeff Stein article about Pollard, a notorious traitor? To add insult to injury, PM Netanyahu personally met this enemy of America on his arrival in Israel at Ben Gurion airport.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/29/jonathan-pollard-spy-israel-452235

 

Here’s a link from the NP which you might believe:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-gives-former-spy-jonathan-pollard-who-was-jailed-in-u-s-warm-but-low-key-homecoming

 

 

 

He paid for his wrong doings with a 30 year sentence. However, this does not prove America should not be an ally of Israel.  This was a mistake by Israeli intelligence back in the 1980s, almost 40 years ago.  Reasonable people would be willing to forgive them for this one.

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The problem is Palestinians in general don't accept Israel's right to exist.

Isn’t that why there should be a “peace deal”?   So that the conflict will stop and both sides will need to adhere to terms?   You don’t make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies.  
 

Is your solution for Israel to kill all the Palestinians?  That’s not very Christian of you….

Edited April 6, 2023 by TreeBeard

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The problem is Palestinians in general don't accept Israel's right to exist.  The two-state idea would never work.  How can Israel deal with people who don't accept it's right to exist?  It is the Palestinians that don't allow their people to apply for Israel citizenship.  Without citizenship, of course they are not going to have the same rights as citizens.  Citizenship requires some loyalty to a country and a willingness to be lawful and supportive of a country.

Israel has rejected the one-state solution for demographic reasons. It is very clear it doesn’t want West Bank (let alone Gaza) Arabs changing the sectarian balance. Which is one reason why the two-state solution makes more sense. 
 

Conflict tends to harden positions. Both sides are intransigent at the moment and I think any person putting up with current conditions in the West Bank would not be well disposed to Israel. There’s a letter written by Arab businessmen in Jaffa in the Thirties complaining to British administrators about uncontrolled immigration to their city. They knew things would not work out well for them and they were right. However, change is possible. Look at Europe since WWII. Look at Ireland. A century ago, many in Britain thought the Irish were incapable of running their own country and thirty years ago few would have predicted a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland but that’s what happened.

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

51 minutes ago, blackbird said:

He paid for his wrong doings with a 30 year sentence. However, this does not prove America should not be an ally of Israel.  This was a mistake by Israeli intelligence back in the 1980s, almost 40 years ago.  Reasonable people would be willing to forgive them for this one.

Fine, but there was absolutely no need for Netanyahu to meet Pollard on the airport tarmac, a decision made three years ago. That was a deliberate, public insult to the US and typical of Bibi. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The problem is Palestinians in general don't accept Israel's right to exist.  The two-state idea would never work.  How can Israel deal with people who don't accept it's right to exist?  It is the Palestinians that don't allow their people to apply for Israel citizenship.  Without citizenship, of course they are not going to have the same rights as citizens.  Citizenship requires some loyalty to a country and a willingness to be lawful and supportive of a country.

Well, I see one state out there and it ain’t Palestine so I’ll have to take your and Israel’s word for it that they’re keen on a Palestinian state. In the actual negotiations, this has been a thornier matter than portrayed with both sides being cagey about accepting the other. I also think one should be cautious about swallowing one side’s version of events in a tribal conflict. It’s hardly ever ‘we good, they bad’ when you drill down into it. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I will take a look at your links.  I just want to say if people are trying to attack Israel in general or oppose their right to exist with these articles and videos, I don't accept it.  There can be legitimate issues with certain individuals but Israel has the right to exist and defend itself.

I am not disputing Israel’s right to exist or defend itself. 

[Army Guy]

40 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Isn’t that why there should be a “peace deal”?   So that the conflict will stop and both sides will need to adhere to terms?   You don’t make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies.  
 

Is your solution for Israel to kill all the Palestinians?  That’s not very Christian of you….

This has been ongoing since the late 40's, with tons of paper work that could fill a large truck all peace agreements, that mean nothing the day they were signed until today... Both sides HATE each other, it is taught in schools, university's, work places, their politics... every where you turn it stares you in the face everyday... 

This conflict is not going to stop anytime soon, and one day the west is no going to be able to contain Israel and they will solve this in the only way hate solves anything...For them it is all about survival at the very basic level...anything else is a pipe dream.. 

[TreeBeard]

8 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

This has been ongoing since the late 40's, with tons of paper work that could fill a large truck all peace agreements, that mean nothing the day they were signed until today... Both sides HATE each other, it is taught in schools, university's, work places, their politics... every where you turn it stares you in the face everyday... 

This conflict is not going to stop anytime soon, and one day the west is no going to be able to contain Israel and they will solve this in the only way hate solves anything...For them it is all about survival at the very basic level...anything else is a pipe dream.. 

They were taught to hate in N. Ireland too.   I’m sure many of them still hate each other.  But, if they can be convinced that an agreement is better than a fight, it can change quickly.  I’m not saying it will.
 

 America funding Israel to the extent it does actually enables them to keep fighting.  Same goes for the Iranian support of Palestinian terrorists, although I read that support may be diminishing.   So, will it be solved in a year?  2?  5? 25?   No idea.  

However, I disagree that Israel is being constrained by the West.  I think the opposite is true….  The West is an enabler of Israeli expansion.   

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well i'll admit this isn't a field of study for me so i'm not that well versed, and i may be missing some of the picture but a few things do occur to me.

1 - The Palestinians have sworn to destroy isreal and elected gov'ts with that in their 'to do' list.  I don't care how they got there. I don't care who did what.  There's No WAY a two state system works when one side is dedicated to the destruction of the other.

2 - it doesn't make a damn bit of difference who's great great great grandfather lived where. Today this is where people are living and they need to continue living and countries and borders shift and change over time, get over it.

I don't see any realistic path to peaceful coexistance for them.  It is clear as a bell palestine doesn't want peace. And its pretty obvious isreal isn't going to sacrifice it's safety and wants a buffer, reasonable or not.

So the only thing i can see being even remotely stable is to leave it basically the way it is and also to support isreal's position. Isreal obviously doesn't want to wipe them out, or they'd be dead. Palestine definitely DOES want to wipe isreal out, so they can't be allowed to have the kind of freedom and power that could make that happen.

Maybe someday both sides will get sick of this and come to the table ready to do a deal, but until that happens i don't think you can force a solution. Keep palestine weak, keep isreal from going too far with retaliation, and wait and see if it simmers down in the next 100 years or so.

Israel isn’t an innocent victim though. and they DO want to wipe the Palestinians out, just in ways that don’t alienate their western supporters. Israel still intends to claim the occupied territories as sovereign Israeli territory and has no intention of making Israel a pluralistic state where Palestinians ate equal citizens.

The current model of the Israeli state is based on occupation, oppression  and apartheid that make America’s Jim Crow South seem pleasant by comparison. The terrorist and extremist views of many/most Palestinians, while indefensible, is also unavoidable given their treatment   
 

Your final sentance there also reflects a popular misconception that any misdeeds on Israel’s part are limited to potentially heavy-handed military and security activity. But in fact Israel engages in a lot more egregious day to oppression like building illegal Israeli settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories which are not even recognized Israeli territory, diverting drinking water from Palestinian villages to feed lush gardens and swimming pools in said illegal settlements, arbitrarily shutting off water, electricity and other essential services for little or no reason , etc  

 

 

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Isn't Canada "two state", with Quebec and the rest of Canada??

indeed

Canada was taken by force of arms by British charter at the Plains of Abraham on 13 September 1759

the State of Israel was founded in much the same way

the British Crown invoked the Balfour Declaration

the Zionists then moved from the Nazi death camps in Europe, to the promised land in an Exodus

like General Wolfe at Quebec, then taking it by force of arms in the War of Independence of 1948

[Americana Antifa]

5 hours ago, Army Guy said:

What a load of bullshit.... Arabs as you call them, have had a bone to pick with Israelis since the inception of their country... and have made life for the average Israelis very difficult "which is an under statement" Palestinians are no more than a terrorist group that continue the fight with Israel becasue they have nothing better to do, than hate...

I mean, if you're dumb enough to not see people as individuals, sure.

Back here in reality, Palestinians who grow up in the inhumane conditions of Gaze are going to be extremely vulnerable to Hamas' propaganda. Israel's government has itself to blame for the existence of groups like Hamas.

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

I mean, if you're dumb enough to not see people as individuals, sure.

You literally say ALL conservatives are sub humans and constantly claim ALL conservatives believe this or that, you've made it pretty clear you don't think people are individuals.

 

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You literally say ALL conservatives are sub humans and constantly claim ALL conservatives believe this or that, you've made it pretty clear you don't think people are individuals.

 

It's an easy trap to fall into, even if it is ridiculous.

[BeaverFever]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Palestinians are no more than a terrorist group that continue the fight with Israel becasue they have nothing better to do, than hate...

That’s not a fair comment. Israelis force the Palestinians to live in conditions comparable the Indian Reserve system at its worst point. They are under foreign military occupation that deliberately attempts to make their daily life as miserable as possible. The state of Israel hates Palestinians just as much as Palestinians hate Israel. How can you suggest Palestinians have no reason to resent and resist Israel?

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

indeed

Canada was taken by force of arms by British charter at the Plains of Abraham on 13 September 1759

the State of Israel was founded in much the same way

the British Crown invoked the Balfour Declaration

the Zionists then moved from the Nazi death camps in Europe, to the promised land in an Exodus

like General Wolfe at Quebec, then taking it by force of arms in the War of Independence of 1948

So by your logic Israel should be allowed to take Palestinian slaves, massacre whole villages of their women and children,  and pay bounties for their scalps, because that’s what our ancestors did over a quarter of a millennium ago. 

[Aristides]

I don't see this being resolved in my lifetime, or my children's. I did have hopes at one time but that was long ago.

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’ll have to take your and Israel’s word for it that they’re keen on a Palestinian state.

I am not aware of Israel wanting a Palestinian state.  Palestinians are Arabs and Israel is surrounded by Arab states.  Israel is a very small geographical area.  The idea of carving it up is nonsense.  Why don't these countries surrounding Israel like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt which have large areas offer to take these Palestinians in and help them get established?  They are all Muslims.  Israel is not Islamic.  Instead they want to get rid of Israel.

[Army Guy]

50 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

I mean, if you're dumb enough to not see people as individuals, sure.

Back here in reality, Palestinians who grow up in the inhumane conditions of Gaze are going to be extremely vulnerable to Hamas' propaganda. Israel's government has itself to blame for the existence of groups like Hamas.

They has individuals voted in a terrorist group, knowing full well were they stood on the Israel story...

Stop making excuses, those that follow and support Hamas are terrorists period...and when engaged in terrorist activities are nothing more than targets...you get what you sow...sure the Israelis government has a big role to play in all of this , but to sit there and point at one group, Israel, then it is bullshit... have you been to Israel, studied any of their history... spent any time with the people. I was posted there 6 months, work with the Israelis military a bunch of times, And the Palestinians are not as innocent as you think...

Hamas has no one to blame but themselves, no one forced them to conduct terrorist activities...blowing up women and children are really not something to aspire to...But you go girl your free to post anything you want to...

[TreeBeard]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I am not aware of Israel wanting a Palestinian state.  Palestinians are Arabs and Israel is surrounded by Arab states.  Israel is a very small geographical area.  The idea of carving it up is nonsense.  Why don't these countries surrounding Israel like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt which have large areas offer to take these Palestinians in and help them get established?  They are all Muslims.  Israel is not Islamic.  Instead they want to get rid of Israel.

Why should they be kicked off land that they own?   That’s your solution?  Expel an entire population of people off the land and homes they’ve always lived at?  
 

If they don’t leave, should Israel just kill them all?

Edited April 7, 2023 by TreeBeard

[Army Guy]

33 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s not a fair comment. Israelis force the Palestinians to live in conditions comparable the Indian Reserve system at its worst point. They are under foreign military occupation that deliberately attempts to make their daily life as miserable as possible. The state of Israel hates Palestinians just as much as Palestinians hate Israel. How can you suggest Palestinians have no reason to resent and resist Israel?

 

Give me a break, you can cry for terrorist if you want , many Canadians do... when they vote in a terrorist group as their governing power, who clearly made it their election moto, to drive Israel into the sea... it kind of makes them terrorist, when you support, or work for a terrorist group then you are a terrorist...

They are not under military occupation, they have there own police and military department, and voted in their own government...I have already said very clearly BOTH sides HATE each other, not dislike, but out right deep hate... And there will be no peace in that region for decades or generations to come... and it is just not Palestinians, most people of Arabic decent hates them as well...War does that to you turns everything into hate... and the Israelis people have known very little of peace...But they know everything about war and hate... 

[BeaverFever]

6 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

 

Give me a break, you can cry for terrorist if you want , many Canadians do... when they vote in a terrorist group as their governing power, who clearly made it their election moto, to drive Israel into the sea... it kind of makes them terrorist, when you support, or work for a terrorist group then you are a terrorist...

They are not under military occupation, they have there own police and military department, and voted in their own government...I have already said very clearly BOTH sides HATE each other, not dislike, but out right deep hate... And there will be no peace in that region for decades or generations to come... and it is just not Palestinians, most people of Arabic decent hates them as well...War does that to you turns everything into hate... and the Israelis people have known very little of peace...But they know everything about war and hate... 

Are all Irish terrorists? You can’t justify mistreatment of an entire ethnic population just because some of the people who object to their mistreatment have resorted to terrorism. Israel is just as responsible for creating Palestinian terrorists areas the terrorists are for triggering stron Israeli military response. 
 

Yea they are under foreign military occupation. Israel controls the flow of water, electricity, people and goods into the territories and shuts essential services off at will. Israel enters and leaves the Occupied territories at will, building Israeli settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes and diverting Palestinian water. Israel has unilaterally declared its has sole authority to require Palestinians in the Occupied Territories to seek Israeli approval for wells and home construction, which it never provides and will send in troops to destroy any that built without Israeli authority. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

Back here in reality, Palestinians who grow up in the inhumane conditions of Gaze are going to be extremely vulnerable to Hamas' propaganda. Israel's government has itself to blame for the existence of groups like Hamas.

In fairness, dissent is dangerous in Gaza. You can hear it when people have lost relatives and don’t give a damn any more. Years ago, one man whose mother was killed in an Israeli strike criticized the enemy, naturally, but then wanted to know why Hamas were firing missiles across the border so close to his house. Were I Gazan, I’d be asking those in charge, perhaps under my breath, what have you done for us lately? 

Edited April 7, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland