Canada wrongly supports a "two-state" solution for Israel

[BeaverFever]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

is the Palestinians that don't allow their people to apply for Israel citizenship. 

That’s misleading. Applying for Israeli citizenship from the occupied territories would first require ceding the Occupied Territories to Israel so that Palestinians would be eligible to apply. Since Palestinians in the OT rightfully deny they are part of Israel they are of course not automatically eligible for Israeli citizenship. 

[Americana Antifa]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You literally say ALL conservatives are sub humans and constantly claim ALL conservatives believe this or that, you've made it pretty clear you don't think people are individuals.

 

The difference is that a conservative is something that people choose to be. People don't choose to be Arabs.

[Americana Antifa]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

They has individuals voted in a terrorist group, knowing full well were they stood on the Israel story...

No shit, Hamas is the only institution keeping them alive. My point is that if Israel stopped with the war crimes, then Hamas would lose power.

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Stop making excuses, those that follow and support Hamas are terrorists period

Imagine you were in a situation where terrorists were trying to kill your family. The only defense was another terrorist group that hated the first terrorist group. Would you help the second group in order to keep your family alive?

[Americana Antifa]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

In fairness, dissent is dangerous in Gaza. You can hear it when people have lost relatives and don’t give a damn any more. Years ago, one man whose mother was killed in an Israeli strike criticized the enemy, naturally, but then wanted to know why Hamas were firing missiles across the border so close to his house. Were I Gazan, I’d be asking those in charge, perhaps under my breath, what have you done for us lately? 

And as bad as all of that is, the alternative is worse. I'd compare it to Jews who fled Nazi Germany for the Soviet Union.

Something I hated about the New Atheists is that while they were correct about fundamentalism being a huge problem in the Muslim world, they completely ignored all of the factors that cause people to embrace extremism. It would be like saying there's something wrong with the Armenians in Turkey because they're all criminals, while totally ignoring the Armenian Genocide. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Why should they be kicked off land that they own?   That’s your solution?  Expel an entire population of people off the land and homes they’ve always lived at?  
 

If they don’t leave, should Israel just kill them all?

I say we take off and  nuke 'em from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

I say we take off and  nuke 'em from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

Nuke ‘em both and let God/Allah sort it out?

Edited April 7, 2023 by TreeBeard

[CdnFox]

24 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

And as bad as all of that is, the alternative is worse. I'd compare it to Jews who fled Nazi Germany for the Soviet Union.

 

So the Jews are nazis.  Awkward.

[CdnFox]

Just now, TreeBeard said:

Nuke ‘em both and let God/Allah sort it out?

I honestly wonder if he'd have any better luck with it.

[Americana Antifa]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So the Jews are nazis.  Awkward.

?

The Jews fled Nazi Germany... and for you, that means that the Jews are nazis? Amazing.

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

?

The Jews fled Nazi Germany... and for you, that means that the Jews are nazis? Amazing.

You're comparing the current situation of the palestinians to that aren't you? That would make the jews the nazi's here.

[Americana Antifa]

Just now, CdnFox said:

You're comparing the current situation of the palestinians to that aren't you? That would make the jews the nazi's here.

FFS. Ya know what, that's on me, I forgot that fascists don't understand individuality.

The Israeli government would be the nazis, not "the Jews."

And before you do the identity politics thing, that doesn't work on me. People from all races and ethnicities can be fascist scum.

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

FFS. Ya know what, that's on me, I forgot that fascists don't understand individuality.

Ohhh i think we know you don't give a flying fig about individuality

19 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

The Israeli government would be the nazis, not "the Jews."

ohhh - so your argument isn't that the jews are the nazis - the jews  just prefer to ELECT nazis!  Well that's MUCH better

Nice backtrack but that's not what you said. You didn't say they fled the nazi gov't  but nazi germany  

Busted!!!  Man you really don't like the jews - these kinds of comments just keep coming up.  But real nice - comparing jews to the nazis is a class act thing to do.

19 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

And before you do the identity politics thing, that doesn't work on me. People from all races and ethnicities can be fascist scum.

So you admit you were calling the jews nazis and are now adding 'fascist scum" to your description of them.

Well. At least you're somewhat honest about how you feel. Points for that i guess.

And yes - you are living proof that anyone can be fascist scum. That's for sure.

[Americana Antifa]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

ohhh - so your argument isn't that the jews are the nazis - the jews  just prefer to ELECT nazis!  Well that's MUCH better

The same way I wouldn't blame the Americans as a people for "electing" Trump, I wouldn't blame the Jews as a people for electing Netanyahu.

 

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

You didn't say they fled the nazi gov't  but nazi germany

Um... yes? Nazi Germany was the country that the Nazi Party controlled.

[CdnFox]

11 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

The same way I wouldn't blame the Americans as a people for "electing" Trump, I wouldn't blame the Jews as a people for electing Netanyahu.

you very clearly did. Nice backtrack.

And if you said jews were 'fleeing nazi america' i think it'd be pretty hard to say you were blaming it all on trump

If that's what you meant you'd have mentioend the gov't. But ya didn't.

11 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

 

Um... yes? Nazi Germany was the country that the Nazi Party controlled.

So you're saying the jews are CONTROLLED by their nazi gov't?

THere's no way to make this look good. Comparing the jews to the nazi's is low, even for you.

[Americana Antifa]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

you very clearly did. Nice backtrack.

And if you said jews were 'fleeing nazi america' i think it'd be pretty hard to say you were blaming it all on trump

If that's what you meant you'd have mentioend the gov't. But ya didn't.

So you're saying the jews are CONTROLLED by their nazi gov't?

THere's no way to make this look good. Comparing the jews to the nazi's is low, even for you.

Look, if you really think about it, all Jews are nazis. Especially the black ones.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Look, if you really think about it, all Jews are nazis. Especially the black ones.

well i'm sure that's how YOU really think about it. You've been pretty clear Ms "doesn't understand individualism".

[SpankyMcFarland]

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

I am not aware of Israel wanting a Palestinian state.  Palestinians are Arabs and Israel is surrounded by Arab states. 

I think how much recognition has been given by each side to the other is a matter of contention, as is everything else on the subject. On some forums, posters will present a full history of the Middle East to justify their side’s exclusive claim to the land. I just don’t have the time or inclination to get that involved in any foreign news story. 

The Arab states around Israel have struggled to accommodate the refugees they received. To its credit, Jordan has given most of them citizenship even though that upset the demographic balance in the country. Lebanon was a sectarian powder-keg already and hasn’t done that. Syria is, well, Syria. I knew a Palestinian who was born and educated there. Her first passport in life was a Canadian one. 

I’ve heard that Arabic varies so much from country to country that it is more like a family of languages. Apparently, some of the dialects are not mutually intelligible. Even when speaking English, Egyptians sound different from Palestinians.
 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[BeaverFever]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They has individuals voted in a terrorist group, knowing full well were they stood on the Israel story...

Stop making excuses, those that follow and support Hamas are terrorists period...and when engaged in terrorist activities are nothing more than targets...you get what you sow...sure the Israelis government has a big role to play in all of this , but to sit there and point at one group, Israel, then it is bullshit... have you been to Israel, studied any of their history... spent any time with the people. I was posted there 6 months, work with the Israelis military a bunch of times, And the Palestinians are not as innocent as you think...

Hamas has no one to blame but themselves, no one forced them to conduct terrorist activities...blowing up women and children are really not something to aspire to...But you go girl your free to post anything you want to...

I think everything you said about Palestinians in the comment above can more or less be said about the state of Israel, they just do it in ways that civilized westerners are more likely to accept. We’re conditioned to believe that government-sanctioned violence is legitimate and non-government violence is not therefore state of Israel blowing up a  family home where with a F-16 is acceptable while a non-government group blowing up a family home with a backpack bomb is not. In reality neither is acceptable and not that different. Sure one purposely targets women and children while the other is simply indifferent to the presence of women and children but that’s not auch a big distinction especially when you consider that the indifferent side is dropping precision laser guided bombs and other sophisticated high effect weapons.
 

Plus being an occupying army they kill women and children simply by arbitrarily denying regular access to food, water, ambulances  and other basic essential goods and services.  As the saying goes you can kill more people with a single stroke of pen than you could with a thousand bullets. Those who have the privilege of using the pen as their weapon of choice will always trying to claim that they are the “civilized” good guys.  They want us to believe that just because they don’t have to their hands dirty their hands don’t have blood on them, but we should know better.

Both sides are equally responsible and equally savage in their own way. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by BeaverFever

[blackbird]

13 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Why should they be kicked off land that they own?   That’s your solution?  Expel an entire population of people off the land and homes they’ve always lived at?  
 

If they don’t leave, should Israel just kill them all?

Sorry but you have a history of insane comments.  

If they are not willing to abide by the laws and live in peace with the Israeli's, then surrounding countries should offer them a place and help them get established.  

If you have a better solution, what is it?

The land belongs to Israel.  The Bible says it does.

Do you have any sane comments as to how the conflict could be ended?

Edited April 7, 2023 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

We’re conditioned to believe that government-sanctioned violence is legitimate and non-government violence is not therefore state of Israel blowing up a  family home where with a F-16 is acceptable while a non-government group blowing up a family home with a backpack bomb is not. In reality neither is acceptable and not that different.

Context DOES matter though.

It makes a difference if you're the agressor - launching missiles into a civillian area first is different than going after missle sites that are shooting at you. Who fires the first shot matters.

Shooting at civilians with intent  vs shooting at bad guys who surround themselves with civilians is Very Very different.

You can't dismiss that as the same thing. Everyone has a right to self defense.

47 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

plus being an occupying army they kill women and children simply by arbitrarily denying regular access to food, water, ambulances  and other basic essential goods and services.

I don't see them doing that much - but if that's the case... make peace.  Come to the table and say "enough - lets work this out". The world would support that - instead they elect a gov't who has "kill all isrealis and drive them into the sea" as a platform plank.  Then they're angry they're getting occupied?

They attack the isrelis constantly, they state they want to kill them, they use human shield tactics with their own people and such - sorry but i can't feel any sympathy for  people like that.  Context does matter - if they don't want peace then they can't complain about the war can they.

[blackbird]

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s misleading. Applying for Israeli citizenship from the occupied territories would first require ceding the Occupied Territories to Israel so that Palestinians would be eligible to apply. Since Palestinians in the OT rightfully deny they are part of Israel they are of course not automatically eligible for Israeli citizenship. 

The radical or extremist Palestinians don't acknowledge Israel has a right to exist which is why they discourage any from applying to citizenship.  That makes sense.  In order to have a chance for citizenship, one must be first of all willing to accept Israel's right to exist as a state, agree to follow all the laws, and live in peace.  Unfortunately many are not willing.  The ones who were able to get jobs and demonstrate they are willing to be good citizens have something to prove they are willing to be a useful part of Israel.   

There is no such thing as "occupied territories".  The term is a misnomer and creates confusion.  The whole area actually belongs to Israel.

"7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; ""  Genesis 17:7 KJV

The land was given to Abraham and his descendants, the twelve tribes of Israel in perpetuity.  You have to decide which side you are on.  Either believe what God said or oppose it.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by blackbird

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I think how much recognition has been given by each side to the other is a matter of contention, as is everything else on the subject. On some forums, posters will present a full history of the Middle East to justify their side’s exclusive claim to the land. I just don’t have the time or inclination to get that involved in any foreign news story. 

The Arab states around Israel have struggled to accommodate the refugees they received. To its credit, Jordan has given most of them citizenship even though that upset the demographic balance in the country. Lebanon was a sectarian powder-keg already and hasn’t done that. Syria is, well, Syria. I knew a Palestinian who was born and educated there. Her first passport in life was a Canadian one. 

I’ve heard that Arabic varies so much from country to country that it is more like a family of languages. Apparently, some of the dialects are not mutually intelligible. Even when speaking English, Egyptians sound different from Palestinians.
 

 

Palestinians who want to live in peace in Israel have the best chance of becoming citizens, but when people are committed to violence and opposing Israel, there is not much anyone can do with them.  They are a continual threat.

"7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; "  Genesis 17:7 KJV

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Are all Irish terrorists? You can’t justify mistreatment of an entire ethnic population just because some of the people who object to their mistreatment have resorted to terrorism. Israel is just as responsible for creating Palestinian terrorists areas the terrorists are for triggering stron Israeli military response. 
 

Yea they are under foreign military occupation. Israel controls the flow of water, electricity, people and goods into the territories and shuts essential services off at will. Israel enters and leaves the Occupied territories at will, building Israeli settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes and diverting Palestinian water. Israel has unilaterally declared its has sole authority to require Palestinians in the Occupied Territories to seek Israeli approval for wells and home construction, which it never provides and will send in troops to destroy any that built without Israeli authority. 

If they support, work for, or take part in terrorist activities then yes they are terrorists...and the way that the Muslims nations did when Israel was declared a nation...where most if not all of those nations involved Declared to the world they would push Israel into the sea, and exterminate every one of them. How do you justify that behavior ? 

Palestinians are responsible for their own actions. there are thousands of other actions they could take to solve this issue, and do you really think acts of terrorism is the best route...

They are not occupied, there are NO Israelis forces inside Palestine, they have their own police force, own military wing...The only time Israel crosses the border is to retaliate for a terrorist attack. SO NO OCCUPATION....

If Palestinians took all that funding they spend on terrorism they could afford to build their own infra structure...

Me and you are not going to solve this issue, regardless of your or mine beliefs... and across the ocean they really don't care what you or i think unless they are asking for money to fund their terrorist ways...This conflict will never end there is to much hate on both sides.  

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

No shit, Hamas is the only institution keeping them alive. My point is that if Israel stopped with the war crimes, then Hamas would lose power.

Imagine you were in a situation where terrorists were trying to kill your family. The only defense was another terrorist group that hated the first terrorist group. Would you help the second group in order to keep your family alive?

Hamas is stoking the fires of terrorism, it has no interest in peace "NONE", Palestine has a long list of terrorist in their government halls, they are working towards terroristic goal, not peace, or nation building, but concentrate on killing Israelis...and thinking they are going to stop becasue Israel hands them everything they want...you should do some more research on the topic...read some of those interviews Hamas has given the international press corp...They don't want peace they want to destroy Israel...

 

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

I think everything you said about Palestinians in the comment above can more or less be said about the state of Israel, they just do it in ways that civilized westerners are more likely to accept. We’re conditioned to believe that government-sanctioned violence is legitimate and non-government violence is not therefore state of Israel blowing up a  family home where with a F-16 is acceptable while a non-government group blowing up a family home with a backpack bomb is not. In reality neither is acceptable and not that different. Sure one purposely targets women and children while the other is simply indifferent to the presence of women and children but that’s not auch a big distinction especially when you consider that the indifferent side is dropping precision laser guided bombs and other sophisticated high effect weapons.
 

Plus being an occupying army they kill women and children simply by arbitrarily denying regular access to food, water, ambulances  and other basic essential goods and services.  As the saying goes you can kill more people with a single stroke of pen than you could with a thousand bullets. Those who have the privilege of using the pen as their weapon of choice will always trying to claim that they are the “civilized” good guys.  They want us to believe that just because they don’t have to their hands dirty their hands don’t have blood on them, but we should know better.

Both sides are equally responsible and equally savage in their own way. 

It is easy to make these judgements from your chair, safe at home, but in reality War is a terrible place where terrible things happen to both sides, difference is terrorist's attack what ever target is going to make a political point the loudest, like schools residential areas, hotels etc... And military targets are carefully selected to strike military targets, like terrorist, ammo dumps tunnels etc... and yes there is collateral damage and incent people die, welcome to the realties of war.. And while it may seem to you that both have the same results there is a huge difference in how they are carried out and the intention behind them...

     When you find a new way that eliminates collateral damage then tell them about it, they would be interested in it. 

THEY ARE NOT OCCUPIED...and once again if the Palestinians used that funding they get to build or buy new infra structure instead of war supplies, they would not be in this mess. No one is staving inside of Palestine.