Canada wrongly supports a "two-state" solution for Israel

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’m heading out anyway. I was talking about a future Palestinian state. A popular tactic among Israeli extremists these days is to claim that Palestinians are a made-up people, partly because they don’t have their own unique language etc. The bizarre thing is that some North Americans support this stance, unaware of the implications it might have for countries like ours that are recent, multiethnic and without a unique language either.

What constitutes an "ethnic" group can sometimes be a little slippery.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Sorry, where would the Palestinians live and what passports would they have? 

They could be Israeli citizens instead of continual fighting.

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What do you mean so-called? Are Palestinians figments of my imagination? 

It was the Roman Empire that attacked and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and scattered the people of Israel to other countries. 

"This article presents a list of notable historical references to the name Palestine as a place name in the Middle East throughout the history of the region, including its counterparts in other languages, such as Arabic Filasṭīn and Latin Palaestina.

"The term "Peleset" (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people, who are generally identified with the Philistines,[2] or their land Philistia, starting from circa 1150 BCE during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt."  - Wikipedia

The name is a derivative of Philistines, one of the ancient enemies of Israel in the area.  There never was such a state of Palestine.  It was a general reference to the area.  Then the Muslims came in and conquered the area in the 7th century A.D.  Now they are claiming to be Palestinians.  That name was given to everyone who lived in the area by the ancient empires. The name has been particularly useful for the Muslim Arabs trying to conquer Israel as an excuse to claim ownership of the land.  But if one understands the ancient history, they will learn that Israel conquered that area several thousand years ago, long before Muslim caliphates began.  Israel has a rightful claim to that land.

"The siege of Jerusalem (636–637) was part of the Muslim conquest of the Levant and the result of the military efforts of the Rashidun Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire in the year 636–637/38."

The Muslims have been fighting for control over the area for centuries, which was once Israel.  

"The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated, supported, and sometimes directed by the Latin Church in the medieval period. The best known of these military expeditions are those to the Holy Land in the period between 1095 and 1291 that were intended to conquer Jerusalem and its surrounding area from Muslim rule. Beginning with the First Crusade, which resulted in the conquest of Jerusalem in 1099, dozens of military campaigns were organised, providing a focal point of European history for centuries. Crusading declined rapidly after the 15th century."

Crusades - Wikipedia

The whole dispute in Israel is all about Muslim domination of the area versus Israel's right to return to and re-establish their ancient homeland.  That is not going to stop by carving up Israel.  Because Israel is the only western style democracy and Israel is considered a holy land for Christians, Jews, and Arabs, it has been in dispute for many centuries.  Muslims are trying to gain control of Israel and have been struggling with that for centuries.  But many Jews returned to their ancient homeland in the 20th century and re-established the state of Israel in 1948.  Muslims basically don't accept it.  It is more of a struggle between Judaism and Islam.

Edited April 14, 2023 by blackbird

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

BTW lads, the US and EU support a two-state solution so you should show them the error of their ways too. This is a trolling thread. 

The western world has a history of anti-Semitism.  That is just a historical fact.  They have no idea of what they are talking about.  Israel is already a very tiny country surrounded by a number of Muslim dominated countries that are hostile to Israel.  Carving up a tiny Jewish country in a sea of Muslims is exactly what the Muslims want.  It is just a continuation of the struggle for expansion and control by Islamic countries in the middle east.  Israel either has a right to exist or it doesn't.  I believe it does have a right to exist.  That can't happen by carving the tiny country into pieces.

[blackbird]

"The Land of Israel (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל), also referred to as the Holy Land or as Palestine, is the birthplace of the Jewish people and Judaism. It is where the Hebrews and Israelites established and developed Israel and Judah, and is also thought to be the region of development for the completed form of the Hebrew Bible; Jews, alongside the Samaritan people, are accredited as ethnic groups originating from the Israelites.[1][2][3][4][5][6] Through the influence of Jewish prophets, many of whom were based in the Land of Israel, Jewish traditions came to serve as the basis of the Abrahamic religions. In the 1st century, the Land of Israel also became the birthplace of Christianity, the world's most widespread religion, based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Throughout the course of human history, the Land of Israel has come under the sway or control of various polities, and as a result, it has historically hosted a wide variety of ethnic groups. In addition to the region's core significance to Judaism and Samaritanism, it is regarded with an especially high degree of holiness in Christianity, Islam, Druzism, the Baháʼí Faith, and a variety of other religious movements whose fundamental theological values trace back to Abraham, a Hebrew patriarch.

Canaan, as the region was known during the Bronze Age, was characterized by city-states that ultimately came under the rule of Egypt. Two Israelite kingdoms—Judah and Israel—emerged during the Iron Age, alongside a Philistine polity. In the following centuries, the Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires conquered the region. The Ptolemies and the Seleucids vied for control over the region during the Hellenistic period. However, with the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty, the local Jewish population maintained independence for a century before being incorporated into the Roman Republic.[7] As a result of the Jewish-Roman Wars in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE, many Jews were killed, displaced or sold into slavery.[8][9][10][11] Following the advent of Christianity, which was adopted by the Greco-Roman world under the influence of the Roman Empire, the region's demographics shifted towards newfound Christians, who replaced Jews as the majority of the population by the 4th century. However, shortly after Islam was consolidated across the Arabian Peninsula under Muhammad, Byzantine Christian rule over the Land of Israel was superseded by the Arab conquest of the Levant in the 7th century. From the 11th century to the 13th century, the Land of Israel became the centre for intermittent religious wars between Christian and Muslim armies as part of the Crusades. In the 13th century, the Land of Israel became subject to the Mongol invasions and conquests, though these were locally routed by the Mamluk Sultanate, under whose rule it remained until the 16th century. The Mamluks were eventually defeated by the Ottoman Empire, and the region became an Ottoman province until the 20th century.

The late 19th century saw the widespread consolidation of a Jewish nationalist movement known as Zionism, as part of which aliyah (Jewish return to the Land of Israel from the diaspora) increased. During World War I, the Sinai and Palestine campaign of the Allies led to the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire. Britain was granted control of the region by League of Nations mandate, in what became known as Mandatory Palestine. The British government publicly committed itself to the creation of a Jewish homeland. Arab nationalism opposed this design, asserting Arab rights over the former Ottoman territories and seeking to prevent Jewish migration. As a result, Arab–Jewish tensions grew in the succeeding decades of British administration.

In 1948, the Israeli Declaration of Independence sparked the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which resulted in the 1948 Palestinian exodus and subsequently led to waves of Jewish emigration from other parts of the Middle East. Today, approximately 43 percent of the global Jewish population resides in Israel. In 1979, the Egypt–Israel peace treaty was signed, based on the Camp David Accords. In 1993, Israel signed the Oslo I Accord with the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was followed by the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority. In 1994, the Israel–Jordan peace treaty was signed. Despite efforts to finalize the peace agreement, the conflict continues to play a major role in Israeli and international political, social, and economic life."  

History of Israel - Wikipedia

One could argue that the land belonged to this group or that group at different times in history.  But this does not diminish the fact the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible (Old Testament) say that the land of Israel was given to the people of Israel in perpetuity by God back at the time of Abraham, about 3,700 years ago.  See Genesis ch. 12.  To complicate the issue, Islam conquered the area when Islam began in the 7th century.  Then crusades were fought in later centuries to regain Christian control of the holy lands.  Finally many Jews moved back to what was previously the land of Israel in 1948. 

Unless one is a Muslim or is anti-Semitic, I am not sure why one would side with the Muslims to carve up and threaten the existence of the state of Israel.

Edited April 14, 2023 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

No, I’m not doing that, as I have explained to you already.  

Again, I don’t support Hamas. Not everyone who disagrees with you has the same opinion on everything. I don’t support those rockets and I oppose terrorism wherever it hails from (although I’ve already demonstrated how definitions vary on that). Hamas do not serve their people’s interests well at all. 

But let’s leave Gaza aside for a second. Imagine if peace broke out in 2035 and the rockets ended. What would you propose for West Bank Palestinians then? Do you think they might deserve a country at that point? Or a vote? Or are they going to be caged into shrinking and disconnected Bantustans for eternity with no say even over their own water? I think every human deserves better than that. 

It certainly sounds like you support them over Israel. How is Israel to respond to terrorist attacks on it's citizens with out military force...The people of Israel are demanding the government responds,  so how do they do that with out offending the global population. you don't like them dozing someone's home, a less violent way of punishment...

Move some place else... And no they don't deserve jack shit, they never had a country to start with ... this conflict has been ongoing for 50 plus years, peace has come and gone dozens of times, and despite all of that do you really think at one point Israel is going to say sure we are going to give you a 1/3 of Israel becasue we are nice people despite everything that has happened in the last 50 years.. Do you think the Palestinians think there is a glimmer of hope that Israel is going to break down and give them what they want after all these years.. with that knowledge why would a Palestinian family man not take his family else where to find peace...or is the hate really that deep...

How does a nation within a nation survive, with no resources , no industry, no nothing really, it is a welfare state kept on it's feet by inter national donations... including Israel. it would take generations for both sides to learn to live with each other...

Why is it they have no water of their own? do you think that providing fresh water to it's people are beyond the scope of this government or the scope of other Middle eastern countries in the area. So why is it they don't have water ?

[Mako]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:40 PM, WestCanMan said:

If you're looking at the view from 100 feet that kinda makes sense.

1) But honestly, who collects their half of a bargain unilaterally and then waits to see what the other party to the transaction collects? 

If I steal your Gretzky rookie card and it's worth $1,000, who's to say that you only steal that exact amount from me? If you stole $1,500 could I really gripe? Could I go to the cops, or take you to small claims court?

2) Israel's situation is precarious and they have no choice but to strike back with a firm hand. Muslims in that area outnumber them 1,000 to 1, and they love genocide. They don't commit genocide and then whine about it later like what happened in Germany, they just do it and then they're happy as can be forever.

3) Israel's situation is a lot like Pakistan's. Both countries were formed the exact same way, just 7 months apart, in 1948/49. In Pakistan they just murdered everyone they didn't want there. They committed a genocide of 3-8M people right away. Then in 1971 they killed 3M more in a second genocide.

None of the people who say that Israel shouldn't exist, or say that what they're doing to the Palestinians is wrong, ever say "The Pakistani solution was far worse though, so the Israelis are doing awesome if you compare them to the only other country in the world that has a lot in common with them."

Do you know why they don't say that? Because they're bigots. They don't give a crap about the millions and millions and millions of Sikhs and Hindus that were killed to give muslims the entire country of Pakistan all to themselves. 

To be fair Indian leaders like Nehru were responsible for the massacre of Muslims.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24159594

And that hardly justifies Israeli apartheid.

Should we have excused South African apartheid because some African dictators were brutal?

The Israelis and AIPAC pushed the U.S. into extremely bloody conflicts.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=albright+60+minutes&view=detail&mid=1D185529DB75BA66C1C31D185529DB75BA66C1C3&FORM=VDRVRV&rvsmid=A922E8EA8C0595064109A922E8EA8C0595064109&ajaxhist=0

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

On 4/14/2023 at 4:50 PM, blackbird said:

It was the Roman Empire that attacked and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and scattered the people of Israel to other countries. 

"This article presents a list of notable historical references to the name Palestine as a place name in the Middle East throughout the history of the region, including its counterparts in other languages, such as Arabic Filasṭīn and Latin Palaestina.

"The term "Peleset" (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people, who are generally identified with the Philistines,[2] or their land Philistia, starting from circa 1150 BCE during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt."  - Wikipedia

The name is a derivative of Philistines, one of the ancient enemies of Israel in the area.  There never was such a state of Palestine.  It was a general reference to the area.  Then the Muslims came in and conquered the area in the 7th century A.D.  Now they are claiming to be Palestinians.  That name was given to everyone who lived in the area by the ancient empires. The name has been particularly useful for the Muslim Arabs trying to conquer Israel as an excuse to claim ownership of the land.  But if one understands the ancient history, they will learn that Israel conquered that area several thousand years ago, long before Muslim caliphates began.  Israel has a rightful claim to that land.

"The siege of Jerusalem (636–637) was part of the Muslim conquest of the Levant and the result of the military efforts of the Rashidun Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire in the year 636–637/38."

The Muslims have been fighting for control over the area for centuries, which was once Israel.  

"The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated, supported, and sometimes directed by the Latin Church in the medieval period. The best known of these military expeditions are those to the Holy Land in the period between 1095 and 1291 that were intended to conquer Jerusalem and its surrounding area from Muslim rule. Beginning with the First Crusade, which resulted in the conquest of Jerusalem in 1099, dozens of military campaigns were organised, providing a focal point of European history for centuries. Crusading declined rapidly after the 15th century."

Crusades - Wikipedia

The whole dispute in Israel is all about Muslim domination of the area versus Israel's right to return to and re-establish their ancient homeland.  That is not going to stop by carving up Israel.  Because Israel is the only western style democracy and Israel is considered a holy land for Christians, Jews, and Arabs, it has been in dispute for many centuries.  Muslims are trying to gain control of Israel and have been struggling with that for centuries.  But many Jews returned to their ancient homeland in the 20th century and re-established the state of Israel in 1948.  Muslims basically don't accept it.  It is more of a struggle between Judaism and Islam.

The Palestinians are at least as close genetically to the ancient Hebrews as European “Jews”. Most Israelis are not religious Jews. So why do the Zionists have the right to ethnically cleanse this land from inhabitants whose ancestors lived there for centuries?

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mako

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

So why do the Zionists have the right to ethnically cleanse this land from inhabitants whose ancestors had lived there for centuries?

You are making an assumption based on anti-Semitic lies.  

I doubt they are "ethnically cleansing" the land.  If that were the case, there would not be a million or more still in Israel.  

They are defending themselves against terrorists that want to destroy them and eliminate Israel.

[Mako]

On 4/12/2023 at 2:36 PM, blackbird said:

"1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. {ordained: or, ordered} 2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. "  Romans 13:1-4 KJV

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Israel is a state or authority which is a higher power ordained of God.  Evil doers who attack the state are resisting the ordinance of God as these verses say.  If they did not do evil, but lived in peace, they would not have the dire consequences on themselves.  It is as simple as that.

Israel contains many atheists who despise Christians. They try to fool dumb Christians into doing Israel’s fighting.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mako

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

Israel contains many atheists who despise Christians. They get try to fool dumb Christians into doing Israel’s fighting.

This strikes me as a foolish conversation with no end.  Nothing intelligent.  Lots of false claims and nonsense.  If you want to spend your time on here mud-slinging you can have it yourself.

[Mako]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are making an assumption based on anti-Semitic lies.  

I doubt they are "ethnically cleansing" the land.  If that were the case, there would not be a million or more still in Israel.  

They are defending themselves against terrorists that want to destroy them and eliminate Israel.

My statement is based on facts from an Israeli historian.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2004/01/16/an-interview-with-benny-morris/

Can’t the “terrorists” claim to be defending themselves from Israeli bombs?

Zionist terrorism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_operations

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This strikes me as a foolish conversation with no end.  Nothing intelligent.  Lots of false claims and nonsense.  If you want to spend your time on here mud-slinging you can have it yourself.

So you are unable to refute any of my statements?

[SpankyMcFarland]

I’m not sure I agree that atheism on its own will greatly improve the quality of leadership around the planet. For example, the prime threat to global freedom, the PRC, is governed by a man who appears to be an atheist. In the past, religion may have exacerbated our conflicts and given us added excuses for them but we seem programmed to fight with each other. Like the struggle against autocracy, pacifism seems to be an unnatural human state that each generation must, well, fight to preserve.