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Advice to Poilievre: Canada is a good country, Appeal to higher angels


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9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just think you buy everything you’re told by Liberal media like most Canadians.  

I spent most of my life wanting nothing to do with the Liberals.  You're not going to believe that, but that's you're problem - you're not interested in acknowledging or believing anything that doesn't fit your worldview.  Everything is black and white for you, like this gem of a quote here:

sellout.thumb.png.57fde74355d49282d5c39752c21ff060.png

You can't seem to fathom any gray area, where someone can't be anti-Liberal, or "conservative" without falling perfectly in line with your own viewpoints.  Groot's a "sell-out", because he doesn't support anti-vaxxers.  It's "selling out" to make up your own mind and have nuanced opinions on things...?

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re scared of other viewpoints and label anyone who tells the truth about government overreach a “conspiracy theorist”.

Government overreach and claims of fascism are very different.  The Emergencies Act was government overreach.  COVID mandates were not.  I label you a conspiracy theorist because you follow and promote conspiracy theories.  See below:  

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s how you’ve been trained.  Don’t worry, you’re going to get even more insane tranhumanism, MAID for the poor, mentally ill, and elderly, higher taxes on basic necessities, curtailment of free speech, and general mindless left-wing radical compliance. 

?

The frequency with which your programming gets tripped and you flip back to "Reee!  MSM fake news!  You're programmed sheep!  A blind fascist-communist!"  to cope with reality not matching your worldview is funny and sad in equal measure.  

Edited by Moonbox
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17 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I spent most of my life wanting nothing to do with the Liberals.  You're not going to believe that, but that's you're problem - you're not interested in acknowledging or believing anything that doesn't fit your worldview.  Everything is black and white for you, like this gem of a quote here:

sellout.thumb.png.57fde74355d49282d5c39752c21ff060.png

You can't seem to fathom any gray area, where someone can't be anti-Liberal, or "conservative" without falling perfectly in line with your own viewpoints.  Groot's a "sell-out", because he doesn't support anti-vaxxers.  It's "selling out" to make up your own mind and have nuanced opinions on things...?

Government overreach and claims of fascism are very different.  The Emergencies Act was government overreach.  COVID mandates were not.  I label you a conspiracy theorist because you follow and promote conspiracy theories.  See below:  

?

The frequency with which your programming gets tripped and you flip back to "Reee!  MSM fake news!  You're programmed sheep!  A blind fascist-communist!"  to cope with reality not matching your worldview is funny and sad in equal measure.  

I don’t care if you think I’m a conspiracy theorist for stating facts and pointing out dubious policies.  You should know by now that I’m triple-vaxed and that my support of the protests has everything to do with constitutional rights like freedom of speech, protest, and medical discretion.  Yes you supported the mandates so I consider your views as dangerous and basically bad.

Don’t worry, Hardner, you, bcscapper, Treebeard, Jack9000, and a few others are also on the side of Moonbox and his Liberal-NDP sycophantic parade.  You need to start calling out government overreach to earn respect.  You make a virtue out of accepting and enabling BS.

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15 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I spent most of my life wanting nothing to do with the Liberals.  You're not going to believe that, but that's you're problem - you're not interested in acknowledging or believing anything that doesn't fit your worldview.  Everything is black and white for you, like this gem of a quote here:

That doesn't mean that you're not completely sucked in by Liberal media.

It's everywhere. You can't listen to stand up comedy, the radio, watch TV or movies, or read a paper without false narratives about covid, etc. (Stand up comics had to get the juice to work). 

Liberal propaganda is everywhere.

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36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t care if you think I’m a conspiracy theorist for stating facts and pointing out dubious policies.

Just saying they're facts don't make them so.  ?

36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You should know by now that I’m triple-vaxed and that my support of the protests has everything to do with constitutional rights like freedom of speech, protest, and medical discretion.  Yes you supported the mandates so I consider your views as dangerous and basically bad.

You should know that I believe in constitutional rights like freedom of speech, protest and medical discretion.  Where we differ is that I actually have a baseline understanding of the Constitution and the Charter, what they actually protect, and what they're meant for.  I don't just wave it around cluelessly when I'm upset about something.  

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14 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Is there a single thing thing in your list of grievances that should lead to the break up of the country or that can be fixed by breaking up the country?

There is plenty on and off that list that could lead to the break up of this country, But your on stage with fire works and balloons celebrating how great this nation is, when in reality it is full of cracks and subtractors that we don't warrant our current listing on your fantasy list. Fixing the problems starts with admitting we have major issues, and addressing them... not celebrating something we are not. 

We are a nation that is divided, not united, we have more faults than we do good points. you either can not see them or refuse to open your eyes.  

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2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Why do we need to wait until an election to hear what the opposition proposes to remedy problems? 

Well Justin has been in power for 8 plus years do we have a well thought out plan on how to solve any of our current issues. health care , economy, climate change, 

PP has address these concerns on his platform, you just got to look... tell me you can say the same on Justins platform, his record speaks for itself, and most of it is garbage, not all of it but most of it. Canadians can't blame PP on our current state thats all the Liberal government, time for a change my friend, it is time to bring balance to the force bringing things back to the center. 

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

How can you be such a sell out?  Thank God for the trucker protest.  They literally liberated Canada from restrictions and mandates.  They were heroic.  I like Poilievre because he was brave enough to stand up to the Liberal-paid legacy media.

Uhm. No to all of that. The restrictions and mandates ended due to improvements in hospital visits brought about by vaccines. The Truckers overstayed their welcome and pissed off the great majority of the country - including me. Their demands ranged from unreasonable to lunatic.

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You fear him because your whole ethos is Liberal like all of Canada.  The Liberals run Canada permanently.  

No, I fear he's a political whore like Trudeau who will offer up whatever policies to whatever groups he thinks will or might vote for him. His immigration policy is a prime example of that. Offering to remove English language requirements to immigrate is about as low as it gets when it comes to pandering.

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2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

He's not still popular.  It's more the opposite. His die-hards still support him, but most of the folks who gave him the benefit of the doubt no longer do so.  Look up his approval ratings.  

He'll succeed or fail in the next election based on how much PP leans on his angry base.  If Poilievre can bridge the gap and start acting like an adult with real ideas, I'll vote for him, and so will most moderate conservatives.  

If he continues on the current course, he'll hand Trudeau the next election by virtue of being even less popular than him.  

He is popular enough to give the conservatives a running for their money. or we would not even be having this conversation. We already done the approval ratings conversation, yes Justin is lagging in the polls but you know as well as everyone does poll mean very little , and votes will sway everyday until election time...

Besides Canadians have a very short memory when it comes to politicians, most voters like candidates that lie and cheat and pass out money like it grows on trees it is in their character.

moderate Conservatives are not the problem they already know who they are voting for..., it is conservative lights that are going to have to make a tough decision, vote for PP and hope for change we so desperately need, or vote for Justin for more of the same lying and cheating and if you can live with that so be it.

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2 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Well Justin has been in power for 8 plus years do we have a well thought out plan on how to solve any of our current issues. health care , economy, climate change, 

PP has address these concerns on his platform, you just got to look... 

First, he doesn't even have a platform yet.  Second, whatever intelligent things he might say are drowned in his other nonsense.  When you start talking crazy, nobody listens to you anymore.  

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

That's a strategy the CPC has run with as long as it's existed - or every party for that matter. 

Perhaps I should have said this is an area they will never be able to compete with the Liberals over. The last three elections they offered very little other than small tax incentives to targeted groups.

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I'll grant that the Liberals (at least IMO) are more shameless and brazen about it, but they're not unique.  The conservative base, at least the furthest reaches of it, generally seem more interested in identity politics and culture wars (owning the Libs, the woke etc).  It's the moderate conservatives (the small C's or the red tories) that actually care about public spending and practical matters.  

The bulk of Conservative supporters want, above all things, a competently run government which devotes most of its time to the economy, with some left over for national security and things like that. They want a balanced budget, an axe taken to the ever burgeoning regulatory framework Trudeau has been so frantically growing, and a focus on economic growth rather than monetary redistribution. That means freeing up natural resources projects from the decade long legal journey through red-tape and narrowing the focus of government to what government needs to do as opposed to sticking their ore into everyone's business.

And by 'national security' I don't just mean beefing up our counter-intelligence services and the military but setting in place policies which get criminals, particularly repeat offenders, most particularly violent repeat offenders off the streets for long periods of time and shutting down illegal immigration by people whose names we don't even know since they destroy their documents before showing up and claiming asylum.

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

We seem to pretty much agree on this and have the same issues with it.  The only thing I'll say is that what Canadian voters are going to want to see is that he doesn't mean a lot of the stuff he's said about the topics he's listed.  He's only recently been elected party leader and he's already painted himself into a corner as a demagogue populist catering to the conspiracy circus.  That's going to be an uphill climb, because he's far too prone to zingers and one-liners and he's given his opponents a lot of ammunition to define him as exactly what he's looked like so far.  

Any comparison with Trudeau on not meaning what you say is going to allow almost anyone but Trump to emerge victorious. What Poilievre needs is a set of fully fleshed out policy proposals. And due to the suspicion he's one of those heartless people who care about money he probably needs, politically, a large, solid proposal on the social welfare front, too. I would prefer it to be something working with and through the provinces, however, as they are the proper level of government to oversee such things. Health care would be a good example of somewhere he could make a proposal which would draw a lot of favourable attention from the public, even those who are suspicious of conservatives. But only as long as the proposal is articulated in such a way as to preclude any resemblance to an "American style" healthcare system.

For which I would suggest picking one of the better performing Western European systems and then stating outright that the tories would move our healthcare system towards the same basic operational outlines as that one. Few European systems actually wind up spending more government money on healthcare anyway, though they almost all get far better outcomes, especially in terms of much higher numbers of doctors and hospital beds per capita and much lower wait times.

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33 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

There is plenty on and off that list that could lead to the break up of this country, But your on stage with fire works and balloons celebrating how great this nation is, when in reality it is full of cracks and subtractors that we don't warrant our current listing on your fantasy list. Fixing the problems starts with admitting we have major issues, and addressing them... not celebrating something we are not. 

We are a nation that is divided, not united, we have more faults than we do good points. you either can not see them or refuse to open your eyes.  

This has Trudeau-grievance written all over it.  It’s all hyperbole.  The country is not falling apart just because you don’t like the current government.  
 

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20 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

PP has address these concerns on his platform, you just got to look... tell me you can say the same on Justins platform, his record speaks for itself, and most of it is garbage, not all of it but most of it. Canadians can't blame PP on our current state thats all the Liberal government, time for a change my friend, it is time to bring balance to the force bringing things back to the center. 

I agree that the Liberal platform on climate change is weak...as was the policies of governments going back to Prime Minister Mulroney. Mr. Poilievre has been very quiet on solutions. He is very good at telling us what makes us upset but I have yet to hear him say what he plans to do about it. I want to have an alternative to the current government. I am a member of the CPC. But so far, I haven't seen anything from the CPC that makes me want to vote for them.

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13 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Perhaps I should have said this is an area they will never be able to compete with the Liberals over. The last three elections they offered very little other than small tax incentives to targeted groups.

The bulk of Conservative supporters want, above all things, a competently run government which devotes most of its time to the economy, with some left over for national security and things like that. They want a balanced budget, an axe taken to the ever burgeoning regulatory framework Trudeau has been so frantically growing, and a focus on economic growth rather than monetary redistribution. That means freeing up natural resources projects from the decade long legal journey through red-tape and narrowing the focus of government to what government needs to do as opposed to sticking their ore into everyone's business.

 I have to agree on most of what you're saying here.  Sadly we have a lot of angry, unserious people trying to subvert the idea of what "conservative" means for their own purposes.  The serious, principled Republicans in the US, for example, are pilloried as RINOs, and we're seeing some of the same here (like Zeitgeist).  If you're not fully engaged in the culture-war bullshit, fear mongering and arbitrary, pointless anti-establishment and conspiracy, you're not conservative.  ?‍♂️

Edited by Moonbox
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7 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 I want to have an alternative to the current government. I am a member of the CPC. But so far, I haven't seen anything from the CPC that makes me want to vote for them.

This should be the sort of stuff that worries realistic and serious conservatives.  Of course we'll have the mooks out here pointing fingers and accusing you of not being a conservative, or lying, or whatever other coping mechanisms they come up with, but I'd urge them to go back 10 years on this forum and see what we were posting about and who we supported back then.  

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20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

First, he doesn't even have a platform yet.  Second, whatever intelligent things he might say are drowned in his other nonsense.  When you start talking crazy, nobody listens to you anymore.  

He has a platform, he needed one to win his current position, and he has spoken out on many topics since then as leader of the opposition. why would any of that change... I'm sure he is going to come out with a up to date platform when the election is called like any leader. 

Still holding on to those few mistakes... you need to let bitcoin go...you don't hold on to Justins mistakes that long do you...

Unfortunately this is who we have to work with, any good leader that is any good is making millions with some private company why would they want to step up, and lead a nation that is broken...

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7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

you don't hold on to Justins mistakes that long do you...

You think @Moonbox supports Justin Trudeau?  
 

I think this shows a complete lack of (a) listening and (b) reason.  
 

Its very clear they don’t support JT, and yet you use it as an argument.  Thinking PP is worse does not equal “I love JT”.  

Edited by TreeBeard
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18 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Still holding on to those few mistakes... you need to let bitcoin go...you don't hold on to Justins mistakes that long do you...

Bitcoin, central banking, trucker protestors and the alignment with the neckbeard conspiracy circus, among others.  Nothing he's said since then has even remotely accounted for the oxygen he's given to all of foolishness he's promoted.  Justin's a bad Prime Minister.  We both agree on that. Unfortunately, someone proposing truly retarded ideas isn't automatically a better alternative by virtue of simply being someone else.  Despite the rhetoric and hyperbole going around, you can definitely get worse. 

The US went from Obama to Trump (bad to worst).  I'd rather not do the same.  

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1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

He has a platform, he needed one to win his current position, and he has spoken out on many topics since then as leader of the opposition. why would any of that change... I'm sure he is going to come out with a up to date platform when the election is called like any leader. 

This is the root of my frustration. His platform so far is "Liberals bad." So what does the CPC propose that is better? Don't wait for the next election. Help the government fix things now.

 

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11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I agree that the Liberal platform on climate change is weak...as was the policies of governments going back to Prime Minister Mulroney. Mr. Poilievre has been very quiet on solutions. He is very good at telling us what makes us upset but I have yet to hear him say what he plans to do about it. I want to have an alternative to the current government. I am a member of the CPC. But so far, I haven't seen anything from the CPC that makes me want to vote for them.

Fair enough, but in saying that you make it clear that you have not had enough of Justin, your not ready to let go, and that is on you, we live in a nation that allows us atleast to have choice on a many things. PP has made choices and stated many policies already, one might have to do some research to find them all, but they are out there. It is going to come down to two choices really Justin or PP, the line is already in the sand...you just have to make up your mind where your going to stand... 

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Just saying they're facts don't make them so.  ?

You should know that I believe in constitutional rights like freedom of speech, protest and medical discretion.  Where we differ is that I actually have a baseline understanding of the Constitution and the Charter, what they actually protect, and what they're meant for.  I don't just wave it around cluelessly when I'm upset about something.  

You think you know more about the constitution?  You don’t want to have that pissing contest.  If you knew the constitution so well and how the courts interpret it you’d know how weak it is.  We have no 1st Amendment, no property rights, and our Notwithstanding Clause basically makes our rights highly conditional.  The excuse of a crisis has been demonstrated as capable of suspending most rights indefinitely.  

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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

You think you know more about the constitution?  You don’t want to have that pissing contest.

I think I understand the importance of Section 1 of the Charter, and that you don't.  

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

If you knew the constitution so well and how the courts interpret it you’d know how weak it is.  We have no 1st Amendment, no property rights, and our Notwithstanding Clause basically makes our rights highly conditional.  The excuse of a crisis has been demonstrated as capable of suspending most rights indefinitely.  

We don't have a First Amendment because our Constitution wasn't written over 200 years ago.  That doesn't mean we don't have freedom of speech. 

I'm not a fan of the Notwithstanding Clause in general, but this is something Alberta and Saskatchewan insisted on when the Constitution was drawn up, so complain to them if you must.  

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10 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

You think @Moonbox supports Justin Trudeau?  
 

I think this shows a complete lack of (a) listening and (b) reason.  
 

Its very clear they don’t support JT, and yet you use it as an argument.  Thinking PP is worse does not equal “I love JT”.  

Did i say that any where, moonbox does not support anyone right now, not PP, or Justin, nor any of the others... he is on the fence, he is a conservative but he dislikes PP...

I asked a question, does he hold Justins mistakes as long as he does PP famous bitcoin gaff...I'm not saying you can't read, but i think you were a little quick off the starting line on this one.

When there is a line in the sand justin on one side and PP on the other it does make it pretty clear...of course there is a third option not to vote at all in protest.

 

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36 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

This is the root of my frustration. His platform so far is "Liberals bad." So what does the CPC propose that is better? Don't wait for the next election. Help the government fix things now.

 

You guys are not listening, he has come out and said what he is going to do if elected or to counter many of the bad liberal choices...perhaps your concentrating on all of PP bad points and it is blinding you...

As for helping the Liberal government fix things, serious question....do you really think they are interested in fixing anything , if it was not for the NDP forcing them to do things what do you think they would have tackled, and what topic do your think liberals and conservatives could work on...i do remember a fair bit of cooperation during the pandemic, but that was a different conservative leader in the chair. 

What we need is change, what that change looks like i don't know, new liberal leadership, or conservative as PM... change is coming soon...   

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