Trudeau's Final Solution

[West]

Trudeau's solution to the mentally ill's strain on health care is to kill them. 

What kind of sick society are we turning in to? 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-maid-canada-mental-health-law/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[DogOnPorch]

He's the avocado toast sorta fascist.

[Michael Hardner]

Calling Trudeau a murderer is fact.  But saying that the convoy had racists in it is BIG LIES ?

 

OK THEN 

[dialamah]

That was an interesting article, providing thoughtful comments on MAID, it's ethics, the motives and experiences of those seeking MAID, and the process by which we got here.  But of course, simplistic partisanship wouldn't allow for an actual "discussion" of a complex topic, but rather must phrase it as "that hateful Trudeau, look what he's done now" and disallowing any nuance in the resulting "conversation".    

[West]

41 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Calling Trudeau a murderer is fact.  But saying that the convoy had racists in it is BIG LIES ?

 

OK THEN 

This is about Trudeau's desire to kill the mentally ill.. I see you didn't read the article

[West]

13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

That was an interesting article, providing thoughtful comments on MAID, it's ethics, the motives and experiences of those seeking MAID, and the process by which we got here.  But of course, simplistic partisanship wouldn't allow for an actual "discussion" of a complex topic, but rather must phrase it as "that hateful Trudeau, look what he's done now" and disallowing any nuance in the resulting "conversation".    

You believe killing the mentally ill warrants "thoughtful discussion"?

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, West said:

This is about Trudeau's desire to kill the mentally ill.. I see you didn't read the article

Neither did you, apparently.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, West said:

You believe killing the mentally ill warrants "thoughtful discussion"?

Who's killing the mentally ill?  The article is about giving them the opportunity to choose to die, and whether that's really a good idea.  Phrasing it as "Trudeau wants to kill them" is dishonest.

[West]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Who's killing the mentally ill?  The article is about giving them the opportunity to choose to die, and whether that's really a good idea.  Phrasing it as "Trudeau wants to kill them" is dishonest.

No its not 

[Army Guy]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Who's killing the mentally ill?  The article is about giving them the opportunity to choose to die, and whether that's really a good idea.  Phrasing it as "Trudeau wants to kill them" is dishonest.

Well, it seems we as a nation have pass legislation that does think that is a good idea. which when taken in the much wider view makes no sense at all. when we look at all the laws already in place to protect them.

And who takes reasonability for this bill to pass, is it an individual, party, senate, whom? if it is a good bill who receives the kudos the PM?, but if it is a bad bill who do we blame. 

 

 

[Aristides]

Tough subject and a good article if you bother to read all of it. So many questions. We have a medial system that is struggling and patients can wait for months or years for treatment. Mental health is no different. One statement jumped out at me.

Quote

Dr. Maher argued that a system that cannot provide care should not offer death as an alternative. For instance, he said some patients will have to wait five years to get the kind of specialty care he offers. “Telling my patients that you will make it easier for them to die has enraged me,” he told the committee. “They will die because psychiatrists will now have legal permission to give up.”

Whether psychiatrists will "give up" is debatable and will depend on their own ethics but it is hard to argue with the first part.

The Dutch seem to have gotten it right if that is possible. Even though they have MAID for mental health, their bar is high and only about 10% of applicants are actually approved for it.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Aristides

[dialamah]

43 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Well, it seems we as a nation have pass legislation that does think that is a good idea. which when taken in the much wider view makes no sense at all. when we look at all the laws already in place to protect them.

And who takes reasonability for this bill to pass, is it an individual, party, senate, whom? if it is a good bill who receives the kudos the PM?, but if it is a bad bill who do we blame. 

 

 

I think it's more complicated than good vs. bad.  The article brings out important details, such as support being available to people who are marginalized and who seek death as an improvement over their current circumstances.  But with help their circumstance could change and they'd decide against MAID.   That aspect isn't at play so much with people who are going to die regardless of medical intervention.  I have to say this article did make me think about whether I support unfettered right to choose death.

[eyeball]

41 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Tough subject and a good article if you bother to read all of it. So many questions. We have a medial system that is struggling and patients can wait for months or years for treatment. Mental health is no different. One statement jumped out at me.

Whether psychiatrists will "give up" is debatable and will depend on their own ethics but it is hard to argue with the first part.

The Dutch seem to have gotten it right if that is possible. Even though they have MAID for mental health, their bar is high and only about 10% of applicants are actually approved for it.

Given the clear double entendre of the tread title the first thing I want to get out of the way is to certify the OP's concern for the mentally ill as being pure bullshit.  The OP is exploiting a serious issue for no other reason than to score an ideological point and the only solution for that is to call it out and voice your disgust.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that much if not most of the mental illness plaguing society can trace it roots to this sort of callous treatment.

The Dutch clearly invests more money in the treatment and care of their mentally ill.  Correct me if I'm wrong but the presumed thrust of the OP is that MAID for the mentally ill is wrong because it will somehow become a convenient way for governments to avoid having to come up with the funding for treatment, housing, and other supports that so many mentally ill need hence the term 'solution'.

I have little doubt that the OP and his ilk would soon be coming up with all sorts of moral arguments against the massive funding increases we'd probably need to come up with to match the Dutch never mind actually meet the needs of the mentally ill.

Like I said, I call bullshit.  What an awful thread title to have this discussion under.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by eyeball

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think it's more complicated than good vs. bad.  The article brings out important details, such as support being available to people who are marginalized and who seek death as an improvement over their current circumstances.  But with help their circumstance could change and they'd decide against MAID.   That aspect isn't at play so much with people who are going to die regardless of medical intervention.

I don't think the distinction between right and wrong is complicated at all.

Quote

I have to say this article did make me think about whether I support unfettered right to choose death.

I don't think I can support it in light of this observation;

 "a system that cannot provide care should not offer death as an alternative".

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I don't think the distinction between right and wrong is complicated at all.

I don't think I can support it in light of this observation;

 "a system that cannot provide care should not offer death as an alternative".

Yup, that's a very salient point.

[West]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Given the clear double entendre of the tread title the first thing I want to get out of the way is to certify the OP's concern for the mentally ill as being pure bullshit.  The OP is exploiting a serious issue for no other reason than to score an ideological point and the only solution for that is to call it out and voice your disgust.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that much if not most of the mental illness plaguing society can trace it roots to this sort of callous treatment.

The Dutch clearly invests more money in the treatment and care of their mentally ill.  Correct me if I'm wrong but the presumed thrust of the OP is that MAID for the mentally ill is wrong because it will somehow become a convenient way for governments to avoid having to come up with the funding for treatment, housing, and other supports that so many mentally ill need hence the term 'solution'.

I have little doubt that the OP and his ilk would soon be coming up with all sorts of moral arguments against the massive funding increases we'd probably need to come up with to match the Dutch never mind actually meet the needs of the mentally ill.

Like I said, I call bullshit.  What an awful thread title to have this discussion under.

 

 

You don't like it because it's true. Liberal governments act under the guise of compassion but in the end they simply don't want to fund it and killing them is easier. Of course they have to justify it somehow as on its face its sick

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, West said:

You don't like it because it's true. Liberal governments act under the guise of compassion but in the end they simply don't want to fund it and killing them is easier. Of course they have to justify it somehow as on its face its sick

Pure partizanship is always easier than struggling with the actual questions involved, it makes thinking unnecessary. Whatever happened to "my body, my choice". Seems like you would put limits on that, so let's discuss them. 

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, West said:

Trudeau's solution to the mentally ill's strain on health care is to kill them. 

What kind of sick society are we turning in to? 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-maid-canada-mental-health-law/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Veterans Affairs offered a wounded veteran medically assisted suicide as a "solution"

that would never have been considered in the Canada I grew up in

that would never have even been conceived of in the Canada I grew up in

in the Canada I grew up in, this 2022 we live in now,  would be a dark dystopic future

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, West said:

You don't like it because it's true. Liberal governments act under the guise of compassion but in the end they simply don't want to fund it and killing them is easier. Of course they have to justify it somehow as on its face its sick

You don't want to fund it anymore than Trudeau does and your guise of compassion evaporates the minute you're asked to.

[Aristides]

This is a topic worthy of discussion. Too bad it was presented as though the Cabinet had some sort of Wannsee Conference and decided to exterminate all the mentally ill.

[Army Guy]

37 minutes ago, Aristides said:

This is a topic worthy of discussion. Too bad it was presented as though the Cabinet had some sort of Wannsee Conference and decided to exterminate all the mentally ill.

I'm hoping they had some sort of discussion, what is missing is what was discussed, and the context behind all of that, it would answer the question as to why they approved this course of action, when so many laws already protect the mentally ill. 

[Aristides]

20 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I'm hoping they had some sort of discussion, what is missing is what was discussed, and the context behind all of that, it would answer the question as to why they approved this course of action, when so many laws already protect the mentally ill. 

As always, the devil is in the details. How do you give people options and protect them at the same time. For starters, I don't think MAID should be "offered" to anyone, it should be up to them to ask for it and go from there.

[West]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You don't want to fund it anymore than Trudeau does and your guise of compassion evaporates the minute you're asked to.

Correct I don't want to fund government sanctioned murder.

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, West said:

Correct I don't want to fund government sanctioned murder.

bear in mind that this is a government which concedes that Canada has committed genocide

an MP recently stood up in the House of Commons,

declaring Canada has committed genocide by the UN definition

so by the government's own statements, Canada is a country capable of Crimes Against Humanity

and no one in Canada has ever been held accountable

so Canada, I am told by the government, is capable of diabolical final solutions, without any consequences at all

 

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[PIK]

We do have stories of vets being pushed that way.