Canada's new frigates to cost more than UK's new aircraft carriers

[Aristides]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

We could always build a Doomsday Bomb and tell everyone to piss off or else.  I bet that would hone America's commitment to our defence against invasion.

So committing suicide is your defence go too?

[Aristides]

12 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada is on its own

you think any of Canada's allies would actually lift a finger for feckless free rider Canada ?

Canada charged into Kandahar to fight the Taliban with just three rifle companies

did any of the NATO allies come to Canada's assistance ?

no,  they didn't

America went to Iraq

the Europeans refused to come and fight with the Canadians

the whole Canadian plan for relying on allies was exposed as being a delusion in Afghanistan

but Canada doesn't care, because Canada is a delusional la-la-land where policy is no longer connected to reality

Several NATO countries sent troops to Afghanistan. Canada declined to participate in Iraq 2 and rightly so. Why should have NATO gone to Iraq, it didn't attack a Nato country.

[Aristides]

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And ours are over $5 billion just for the ships. Please explain.

Like any vehicle, options can add considerably to the price. It depends on what we need them to do and the cost of equipping them accordingly. As I said about the carriers. The QE class can carry up to 40 F-35B's and 14 helos. The F-35's alone would cost almost 5 B USD plus plus cost of operating them. Also, the carriers air defence will be mostly handled by its escorting Type 26's. That's why I hate BS comparisons like the PBO estimate quoted in your link.

[Aristides]

We will probably pay more than we need to because we have never tried to build a defence industry in this country that is capable of export, unlike say, Sweden but someone here name any military procurement in any country that hasn't gone over budget. 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

So committing suicide is your defence go too?

It's called MAD for a reason you know. It's a matter of taking as many of the bastards with us as we can.

In any case we're a Christian nation so it's ok, God has another planet waiting for us.

Edited October 28, 2022 by eyeball

[Aristides]

You know the Doomsday bomb only existed in Dr. Strangelove. The thing about nukes is you need ways of delivering them which are far more expensive than the weapons themselves.

[Moonbox]

14 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Probably not. But the $85 billion cost of the frigates doesn't include any of that either.

The European FREMM was offered as a cheaper alternative at $30B (built in Canad) awhile ago, but was rejected.  That $30B price tag was almost certainly not going to hold up, just like the CSC hasn't, but it's conceivable it could have at least been noticeably cheaper.  

The CSC, however, is planned to be a larger and more capable ship.  Calling it a frigate at this point is kind of a laugh.  It would probably be more apt to call it a small destroyer.  

14 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And what about those American frigates at half the price?

The Americans have a lot of different designs for a lot of different roles.  If you're talking about their Constellation class, it's a much smaller and much less capable ship than the CSC. There's no question that the Americans can build ships cheaper than us though.  They have massive economies of scale and something like a 50% labor cost advantage vs our tiny shipbuilding industry.  The American frigates were not suitable for what we were looking for.  

The whole basis for this expensive boondoggle is the promotion of a domestic shipbuilding industry.  Canada has every reason to be competitive in this space, but we just sort of keep outsourcing it.  The hope is that changes over time, but I think it's reasonable to have doubts on that.  

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

We will probably pay more than we need to because we have never tried to build a defence industry in this country that is capable of export, unlike say, Sweden but someone here name any military procurement in any country that hasn't gone over budget. 

Actually Canada was a huge armament and aircraft producer in WW2 and we had two aircraft carriers.  Trudeau Sr.  and others gutted our forces.  We gave up marines and airborne.  Read, “Who killed the Canadian military?”

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Actually Canada was a huge armament and aircraft producer in WW2 and we had two aircraft carriers.  Trudeau Sr.  and others gutted our forces.  We gave up marines and airborne.  Read, “Who killed the Canadian military?”

Our last aircraft carrier was a wee little baby less than half the size of the ones the US was building at the end of WW2, and we didn't even build it.  

Though Trudeau was never a huge friend of our military, the gutting of our defense industries started long before he took power.   

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

You know the Doomsday bomb only existed in Dr. Strangelove. The thing about nukes is you need ways of delivering them which are far more expensive than the weapons themselves.

Israel apparently has one. All you need is to add a bunch of cobalt to the bomb, to make it so dirty that all it takes is one to do the job.  No need for missiles or other expensive technology to deliver it.

No need for a military when you come right down to it, unless of course you're intending to use it to interfere in other people's business.

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Actually Canada was a huge armament and aircraft producer in WW2 and we had two aircraft carriers.  Trudeau Sr.  and others gutted our forces.  We gave up marines and airborne.  Read, “Who killed the Canadian military?”

Our two carriers, the Magnificent and Bonaventure were British light carriers that were built during WW2. The only jets they ever carried were Korean War vintage Banshees on the Boneventure.

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The European FREMM was offered as a cheaper alternative at $30B (built in Canad) awhile ago, but was rejected.  That $30B price tag was almost certainly not going to hold up, just like the CSC hasn't, but it's conceivable it could have at least been noticeably cheaper.  

The CSC, however, is planned to be a larger and more capable ship.  Calling it a frigate at this point is kind of a laugh.  It would probably be more apt to call it a small destroyer.  

The Americans have a lot of different designs for a lot of different roles.  If you're talking about their Constellation class, it's a much smaller and much less capable ship than the CSC. There's no question that the Americans can build ships cheaper than us though.  They have massive economies of scale and something like a 50% labor cost advantage vs our tiny shipbuilding industry.  The American frigates were not suitable for what we were looking for.  

The whole basis for this expensive boondoggle is the promotion of a domestic shipbuilding industry.  Canada has every reason to be competitive in this space, but we just sort of keep outsourcing it.  The hope is that changes over time, but I think it's reasonable to have doubts on that.  

The Type 26's are quite a bit larger than the FREMM's. As you say, more like destroyers. The UK has designated it a "Global Combat Ship".

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Aristides said:

So why come up with some bullshit cost based on 65 years of operation and disposal? Did you read your own post?

 

Are you under the impression I wrote the article or the PBO report its based on you putz?

Edited October 28, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

America will not grant Canada intellectual property for American made warships

They're selling their F35s everywhere. They even sold them to Turkey. Although they've since changed their minds given how cozy the Turks were getting with Putin.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Washington would at that point simply depose the Canadian government by way of the CIA

installing an America friendly government in its place

Oh right. How?

[Dougie93]

Just now, I am Groot said:

They're selling their F35s everywhere. They even sold them to Turkey. Although they've since changed their minds given how cozy the Turks were getting with Putin.

you don't get the Intellectual property with the F-35 neither

America maintains full control of the F-35 software, Canada will not have access to the source codes

the F-35 is turnkey

you buy into America's program, but America runs the program for you

Canadian pilots will be trained in America, the logistics for the F-35 are controlled by America

[I am Groot]

6 hours ago, Aristides said:

Like any vehicle, options can add considerably to the price. It depends on what we need them to do and the cost of equipping them accordingly. As I said about the carriers. The QE class can carry up to 40 F-35B's and 14 helos. The F-35's alone would cost almost 5 B USD plus plus cost of operating them. Also, the carriers air defence will be mostly handled by its escorting Type 26's. That's why I hate BS comparisons like the PBO estimate quoted in your link.

I cannot imagine how they think Irving shipbuilding would be able to sell naval vessels to anyone who had a choice as to who built their ships. There is no way they're ever going to compete with France, Italy, the UK, Norway, South Korea or just about anywhere else on either price or quality.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Oh right. How?

there are myriad ways Washington could bring a Canadian government down

the easiest way however would simply be to restrict access to Canadian exports at the border

the Canadian economy would spiral into a crisis on the spot, the ruling government wouldn't last long then

[I am Groot]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

there are myriad ways Washington could bring a Canadian government down

the easiest way however would simply be to restrict access to Canadian exports at the border

the Canadian economy would spiral into a crisis on the spot, the ruling government wouldn't last long then

What replaced them would be most unlikely to look upon the US favorably. It couldn't if it hoped to get elected or re-elected because such an action from the US would turn the Canadian population against the US.

Too much of that and we'll be diverting all our natural resources to China instead of the US and signing free trade deals with them.

[herbie]

FIgure out the cost to buy a fully kitted F150, fuel & maintain it and pay a driver for the next 65 years.
It won't be cheap.

[Aristides]

50 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I cannot imagine how they think Irving shipbuilding would be able to sell naval vessels to anyone who had a choice as to who built their ships. There is no way they're ever going to compete with France, Italy, the UK, Norway, South Korea or just about anywhere else on either price or quality.

Irving is not an arms company just as Bombardier is not an arms company. We don't have any real arms companies like SAAB or BAE. Every time we do one of these once every 40 year projects we almost have to start from scratch. Most of the people who worked on the Halifax frigates we are replacing are retired by now.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Aristides

[Dougie93]

46 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 the US would turn the Canadian population against the US.

as if that is not the case now

Canada will do America's bidding, or commit national suicide

[Army Guy]

I don't think this has ever been about frigates, but more of a way to funnel bils into Canadian companies and make work projects. The whole thing sucks of a cheap conspiracy movie.

- the standard for pricing contracts if we are going by the f-35 project is or was 25 to 30 years, and that was done for sticker shock so Canadians would revolt against the idea. Now someone has agreed to price it out to 65 years, even Canada does not keep equipment for 65 years at least not on active duty, maybe in a museum. It is like we are looking for an excuse to quit the whole project.

- why is it we are still bent on having these built in a Canadian shipyard, when Britain could build them for way cheaper, same as Australia, south Korea, Japan anyone. 5 and a half bil per ship , and no one is saying pull up your pants we are leaving, were done getting screwed.

- for those prices we could have had the US build us the Arleigh burke destroyers for half the price and twice the capabilities. or purchases nuclear subs for that matter.

Why are we continually pushing construction down the road? at tremendous cost to the project close to 9 % per year...at 80 plus for 15 ships, next year 90 bil plus... screw the Irving's, and any other ship builder in Canada, let's go to the cheapest bidder, and get more ships.  No, we had to build those AOP's first, and the navy does not even like or want them, they bring very little to the table.  

 

[I am Groot]

31 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Why are we continually pushing construction down the road? at tremendous cost to the project close to 9 % per year...at 80 plus for 15 ships, next year 90 bil plus... screw the Irving's, and any other ship builder in Canada, let's go to the cheapest bidder, and get more ships.  No, we had to build those AOP's first, and the navy does not even like or want them, they bring very little to the table.  

 

Because corruption. As you point out there just is no other reason why we're paying more for our base model Chevy Spark than we'd pay for a Porsche.

It nod only robs Canadians but it robs us of a properly kitted out military. How can we afford new equipment when everything we pay for is two, three, four times what even our allies are paying, never mind what Russia or China is paying. How many frigates do you think China could build for $5 billion?

Wait! Google! Yeah! That's a thing. So China is building new destroyers - which are much bigger and more capable than frigates. The Type 055 is between 12,000-13,000 tons. Canada's new frigates will be about 6900 (9400 fully loaded). China's destroyers are costing it  about $400 million. 

So for those who compare militaries based on spending this is one of the reasons why that doesn't work. China can build ten of these big destroyers for the same cost as we'll fork out for one frigate.

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-largest-destroyer-most-powerful-055-lhasa-renhai-nanchang-zumwalt-2022-6#chinese-media-has-touted-the-ship-as-the-second-most-powerful-destroyer-in-the-world-after-the-uss-zumwalt-2

[Aristides]

The DeWolfes are little more than glorified police boats with their Bushmaster popgun as main armament.