Canada's new frigates to cost more than UK's new aircraft carriers

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada is uniquely protected within the perimeter of fortress America

hence why Canada doesn't actually defend itself

hence why the fake Canadian defence department is an international laughing stock

American servicemen defend the approaches to the CONUS, Canada is simply part of that by default

The US commitment to Canada's defence could end a mile north of the 49th parallel if it so chooses. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The US commitment to Canada's defence could end a mile north of the 49th parallel if it so chooses. 

Canada doesn't care

all Canada cares about is boondoggles & cronyism

so much so, that it can't even run the programs anymore which those boondoggles rely on

the Government of Canada is totally dysfunctional,

government capacity in Canada has collapsed, not just at DND, but in every single department

Canada is actually imploding a functional sovereign country, to include the collapse of the rule of law itself

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dougie93

[Aristides]

I'm not trying to defend Canada's procurement process, I'm just sick of effing politicians who compare the total cost of buying and operating equipment with the delivered costs used by other countries. It is politics of the worst kind and does nothing but damage to our armed forces. We will be operating our ships longer than anyone, getting F-18 replacements later than anyone. It took almost 30 years to replace our navy helicopters and we got fewer less capable machines that cost more. Our army's air defence capability which was retired in 2012 and was supposed to be replaced by 2017 now won't be replaced until 2027. That's 15 years our army will be going without an air defence system. All because of effing politics.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Aristides

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I'm not trying to defend Canada's procurement process, I'm just sick of effing politicians who compare the total cost of buying and operating equipment with the delivered costs used by other countries. It is politics of the worst kind and does nothing but damage to our armed forces. We will be operating our ships longer than anyone, getting F-18 replacements later than anyone. It took almost 30 years to replace our navy helicopters and we got fewer less capable machines that cost more. All because of effing politics.

it's beyond the control of the politicians

the cancer in Canada is down in the bones now

you could run for office, but you wouldn't be able to fix anything

Canada is collapsing in terms of government capacity to do anything, right across the board

there's only so long you can run things in a la-la land like Canada does, before the consequences are irreversible

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 All because of effing politics.

upstream from politics is culture

the Canadian culture itself is collapsing, being erased by the Liberals, replaced with the American culture

so the British culture which maintained some semblance of a Canadian military, that's all gone now

[Aristides]

The problem is we have gotten used to relying on the US. We don't feel threatened by anyone and that is the main difference between us and a place like Australia.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

The problem is we have gotten used to relying on the US. We don't feel threatened by anyone and that is the main difference between us and a place like Australia.

Switzerland is not under any real threat, yet they are fully capable of defense procurement

again, the problem is governance in Canada itself, which is collapsing at the federal level

it's not just defence, the federal government in Canada is incapable of running any programs at all now

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Switzerland is not under any real threat, yet they are fully capable of defense procurement

again, the problem is governance in Canada itself, which is collapsing at the federal level

it's not just defence, the federal government in Canada is incapable of running any programs at all now

Switzerland is a neutral which by definition has no allies. They are on their own.

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Switzerland is a neutral which by definition has no allies. They are on their own.

Canada is on its own

you think any of Canada's allies would actually lift a finger for feckless free rider Canada ?

Canada charged into Kandahar to fight the Taliban with just three rifle companies

did any of the NATO allies come to Canada's assistance ?

no,  they didn't

America went to Iraq

the Europeans refused to come and fight with the Canadians

the whole Canadian plan for relying on allies was exposed as being a delusion in Afghanistan

but Canada doesn't care, because Canada is a delusional la-la-land where policy is no longer connected to reality

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dougie93

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Typical BS. Does the price of those carriers included operating and disposal costs to operate them for 65 years.

Probably not. But the $85 billion cost of the frigates doesn't include any of that either.

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

This is what happens when you have to buy jack of all trades equipment like frigates and fighters instead of more than one type. Yes the Type 31 is cheaper but the RN will be operating Type 31 and Type 26 frigates plus Type 45 destroyers. We want to use a single ship to do the job of all three. Australia which is also using a single all purpose ship is also going with the Type 26.

And what about those American frigates at half the price?

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

The Hobarts cost over 3 billion each and that is just for the ships.

And ours are over $5 billion just for the ships. Please explain.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Why not Type 26's built in the UK or in Australia. BAE has an Australia division, Canada doesn't.

If you are going to use it for 65 years, buy the right goddamn equipment in the first place.

We are NOT going to use it for 65 years. That's just complete bullshit. It would be like operating a destroyer from WW2 right up until 2010.

[Aristides]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Probably not. But the $85 billion cost of the frigates doesn't include any of that either.

And what about those American frigates at half the price?

What about them?

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

We are NOT going to use it for 65 years. That's just complete bullshit. It would be like operating a destroyer from WW2 right up until 2010.

So why come up with some bullshit cost based on 65 years of operation and disposal? Did you read your own post?

Quote

That eye-popping price tag for the 15 surface combatants, contained in a new report released Thursday, is spread out over 65 years — the anticipated lifespan of the warships.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Aristides

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

 

And what about those American frigates at half the price?

America will not grant Canada intellectual property for American made warships

which means any warships bought from America would have to be serviced in America

this is why Canada is trying to buy British

only the British builders are willing to sell Canada the IP with the warships, the Americans wont do it

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

no, I favour disbanding the entire Canadian Forces

Canada totally relies on America for its national defence

Canada should stop wasting $20 billion a year on the pretense that it actually defends itself

We should have contracted Norway to manage Alberta's oil patch for the same reason, Canada sucks at getting it's shit together.

[Dougie93]

Just now, eyeball said:

We should have contracted Norway to manage Alberta's oil patch for the same reason, Canada sucks at getting it's shit together.

all our relevant services are provided by our provinces

it's the federal government which is totally dysfunctional and worse than useless

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What about them?

America doesn't have enough shipbuilding capacity to supply the US Navy

so America has no impetus to export warships, so is not willing to cut any deals for allies

hence they are not a viable vendor for Canada

[eyeball]

42 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The US commitment to Canada's defence could end a mile north of the 49th parallel if it so chooses. 

We could always build a Doomsday Bomb and tell everyone to piss off or else.  I bet that would hone America's commitment to our defence against invasion.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

all our relevant services are provided by our provinces

it's the federal government which is totally dysfunctional and worse than useless

Because we suck at getting our shit together.  In a democracy a government is only as good as the people who elect it.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

We could always build a Doomsday Bomb and tell everyone to piss off or else.  I bet that would hone America's commitment to our defence against invasion.

Washington would at that point simply depose the Canadian government by way of the CIA

installing an America friendly government in its place

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Because we suck at getting our shit together.

because it's not a unitary country

it's a loosely bound Confederation of rivals who are only driven together by their fear of America

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

because it's not a unitary country

it's a loosely bound Confederation of rivals who are only driven together by their fear of America

The Canadian federal government plays two roles:  It provides money losing national programs like expensive Canada Post delivery to the Arctic and it functions as a redistribution program transferring taxpayers’ money from the wealthier parts of the country to the poorer parts.

There’s a good argument to be made for providing national infrastructure such as ports and roads to the far north through federally collected and managed tax dollars.  Our national military also falls into that category.  Yet somehow the federal government got into areas of provincial jurisdiction such as healthcare because Canada tried to create national standards through national legislation like the Canada Health Act.  Basically the Feds created minimum care standards across the country that aren’t always met.   Provinces have varied their offerings.

If we can’t operate a federal military or other national programs, we should certainly question why our federal government has tried to become a Jack of all trades and is now of course a master of none.

The federal government needs to have its mandates and tax collections reduced so that it does fewer things but hopefully manages the lighter load with more competence.

When I see how much federal programs like the carbon tax are hurting Canadians economically, it makes me want for Canada to break up or for the federal government to be shrunk down to a federal parks commission keeping the Parliament buildings open strictly as a kind of museum without expensive MP’s and departments.  Why pay for all this duplication?  Let the provinces run everything.  BC can triple its carbon tax while Alberta scraps it.  We can stop paying for Trudeau’s private jet and the Governor General’s in flight catering.

We need our airports and canals to operate so Canadians can travel province to province and internationally, so we can have little bits of federal stuff.  Perhaps the provinces could contribute towards maintaining a few departments.  Otherwise I don’t see much value add from the Feds. They don’t like Canada or its culture and want to throw tax dollars at special interest groups. Why bother?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Why bother?

but even if you wanted to bother, these programs are pie in the sky unrealistic

 building 12-15 Type 26's in Halifax was never going to happen

obviously the program is going to go so over budget, it will have to be cancelled at some point

the question is simply what are they actually going to buy when reality comes calling ?

in the meantime, I would expect the current frigates to have to keep serving for decades to come

wouldn't surprise me at all if they are forced to buy second hand

like the Type 31's the British are building now

those will sail for twenty years in the RN

then Canada will buy them in the 2040's out of sheer desperation to replace at short notice

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but even if you wanted to bother, these programs are pie in the sky unrealistic

 building 12-15 Type 26's in Halifax was never going to happen

obviously the program is going to go so over budget, it will have to be cancelled at some point

the question is simply what are they actually going to buy when reality comes calling ?

in the meantime, I would expect the current frigates to have to keep serving for decades to come

wouldn't surprise me at all if they are forced to buy second hand

like the Type 31's the British are building now

those will sail for twenty years in the RN

then Canada will buy them in the 2040's out of sheer desperation to replace at short notice

Yeah not going to happen.  The US and Brits will let Canada get ravaged by wolves as the Canadian D of Defence begs for shoestring funding and our Parliament instead sends all our tax dollars to Eyeball’s seasonal worker and designated victim groups welfare dependency programs.

China the the US divide the spoils of Canada as Trudeau’s Disney Parliament theme park picks up defunct British ships on the cheap to send a ship or two on a mission, calling it support of NATO.