Canada's new frigates to cost more than UK's new aircraft carriers

[Army Guy]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I never had any complaints

I always had enough money to go partying in Ottawa & Hull

the food at the Normandy Mess was great

Y-101 was brand new, the Death Star was very impressive back then

G-101 was great, I was very comfortable at G-101, even my girlfriend didn't mind coming there

it's not like I was stuck with the dregs over at 0-19

then Trenton was even fancier, my wife to be thought my room in Trenton was fancy

wood panelled walls, a wooden desk, and the mess at Trenton had a pizza bar and beer on tap

the Americans thought we were pampered

it's a harsh realm in ultra expensive Toronto,

I always thought the CF was a good gig, $115 a month for room & board : great deal

I don't recall many people complaining about the wages, it has always been about old equipment, or not enough of it, like NVG's etc., lack of training, i do remember when 8 months out of the year on training exercises was the norm, now you're lucky to get out a few times a year for an infantry bn that is bad.

I guy could write a book on all the things we were sent into battle with, while our politicians are worried about not having their Plane upgraded, or enough RCMP to defend them...

I also remember when we had a shit ton of benefits that made our wages look even better, like PMQ rents, or mess hall prices, now it is all made so that it is comparable to downtown rents, or meals. becasue someone complained we had an advantage, and nobody was there to protect these benefits it was easier to give them up. The whole idea of having PMQ's is out the window, the same as single quarters, it is cheaper to live on the economy, sad really. 

[Dougie93]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:35 PM, Army Guy said:

a guy could write a book on all the things we were sent into battle with, while our politicians are worried about not having their Plane upgraded, or enough RCMP to defend them...

but it really all comes down to Canadian culture

the Canadian "Peacekeeping" myth

Canadians invoke that the Americans are the "Warmongers", while Canadians are the "Peacekeepers"

so the politicians just pander to what the Canadian people desire

the politicians say that Canada doesn't need firepower, protection nor mobility,

because that's not for "Peacekeeping"

that is literally the Liberal policy from the 1990s

they said all Canada would need is lightly armoured cars & jeeps to do "Peacekeeping"

even after 9-11, the Liberals still declared that Afghanistan was just going to be "Peacekeeping"

even when the Liberals decided to charge into Kandahar, that was going to be "Peacekeeping"

it's never going to change, because this is Canada, this naive self righteous pacifism is Canadian culture

and culture is destiny

 

[eyeball]

 

Quote

While Canada dithers over building warships, exploding drones are devastating the Russian fleet

...it seems highly likely that a Canadian technology — originally intended to help warships defend against attack by high-speed small boats after al-Qaida’s suicide attack against the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000 — was instrumental in what is likely to be a major re-assessment of naval warfare.

Which brings us neatly to Canada’s plan to build 15 warships at an acquisition cost of $80 billion and a life-cycle price-tag of $300 billion.

 

If it is possible to sink or damage the flagship of the Russian fleet with a few drones, we may be on the cusp of a technology shock similar to the one that saw wooden-hulled ships armed with muzzle-loaded cannon replaced with steel-hulled battle cruisers and submarines at the turn of the 20th century.

Every frigate we buy will be a proverbial sitting duck.  It makes no sense.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by eyeball

[ExFlyer]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:35 PM, Army Guy said:

I don't recall many people complaining about the wages, ...

I guy could write a book on all the things we were sent into battle with, while our politicians are worried about not having their Plane upgraded, or enough RCMP to defend them...

I also remember when we had a shit ton of benefits that made our wages look even better, like PMQ rents, or mess hall prices, now it is all made so that it is comparable to downtown rents, or meals. becasue someone complained we had an advantage, and nobody was there to protect these benefits it was easier to give them up. The whole idea of having PMQ's is out the window, the same as single quarters, it is cheaper to live on the economy, sad really. 

The upgrades for the aircraft were necessary so we could flying other countries airspace. Not so much for politicians but for operations.

The Military gave all the PMQ's to CMHC because they did not want to maintain them. Also, the CFHA decided to increase rents because it was unfair to those that could not get in PMQ's (RHU's) and had to rent off base so, the equalized the rent.

They also gave all (or most) rec centres, arenas, campgrounds, base golf courses and on base even boat ramps to the local communities for, in my opinion, PR reasons.

[ExFlyer]

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

Every frigate we buy will be a proverbial sitting duck.  It makes no sense.

 

Yeah but, look at all the employment they make and justified for the many decades making these ships /s    

[Moonbox]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Every frigate we buy will be a proverbial sitting duck.  It makes no sense.

It won't be, because it's a modern frigate, small and fast, with modern defenses.  People pointing to the Moskva as a parallel to battleships becoming obsolete are ignoring the fact that the pride of the Russian Black Sea fleet was a 45 years old with presumably lower-end or outdated countermeasures, operated irresponsibly within range of Ukrainian coastal defenses they arrogantly assumed did not exist, and likely crewed by poorly trained sailors.  

[Army Guy]

6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The upgrades for the aircraft were necessary so we could flying other countries airspace. Not so much for politicians but for operations.

The Military gave all the PMQ's to CMHC because they did not want to maintain them. Also, the CFHA decided to increase rents because it was unfair to those that could not get in PMQ's (RHU's) and had to rent off base so, the equalized the rent.

They also gave all (or most) rec centres, arenas, campgrounds, base golf courses and on base even boat ramps to the local communities for, in my opinion, PR reasons.

OK, sure tell me that there has been no PM that has pushed for updated VIP aircraft, those airbuses will be hauling troops until the seats fall out, or the PM says they will be upgraded. 

CFHA has never lost control of the any of the quarters, CFHA is a department within DND.

DND living accommodation means all living accommodation under the control of the Minister of National Defence (MND), except that used for field training or deployed operations.

DAOD 5024-0, DND Living Accommodation - Canada.ca

On many bases PMQ's are being used to accommodate single persons, due to the lack of occupancy. infact most bases have torn down PMQ's due to the historic lack of occupancy. mostly due to it was cheaper to rent downtown than it was for a shi**y PMQ.

DND still maintains budgets for all quarters, not sure who owns campgrounds, golf courses, boat ramps in Petawawa so i am not sure. 

 

 

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It won't be, because it's a modern frigate, small and fast, with modern defenses.  People pointing to the Moskva as a parallel to battleships becoming obsolete are ignoring the fact that the pride of the Russian Black Sea fleet was a 45 years old with presumably lower-end or outdated countermeasures, operated irresponsibly within range of Ukrainian coastal defenses they arrogantly assumed did not exist, and likely crewed by poorly trained sailors.  

Hard to argue with that given Russia's combat performance to date. It's about on par with our procurement performance.

[I am Groot]

seems no way to delete a comment rendered unnecessary...?

Edited November 9, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

58 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It won't be, because it's a modern frigate, small and fast, with modern defenses.  People pointing to the Moskva as a parallel to battleships becoming obsolete are ignoring the fact that the pride of the Russian Black Sea fleet was a 45 years old with presumably lower-end or outdated countermeasures, operated irresponsibly within range of Ukrainian coastal defenses they arrogantly assumed did not exist, and likely crewed by poorly trained sailors.  

Not to mention operated by poorly trained, poorly motivated draftees with equipment which only occasionally works due to lack of maintenance and parts.

That being said, these frigates are anything but small. They're massive compared to the ones we operate now or even the Tribal class destroyers we used to have.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Every frigate we buy will be a proverbial sitting duck.  It makes no sense.

actually, the SeaCeptor CIADS to be mounted on the RCN frigate is quite capable against loitering munitions

the Russian navy is out of date, the Russians are still using 1980's technology

the cruiser that the Russians lost, Moskva,  entered service in 1983

it was a decade older than the oldest Canadian frigates in service now

[ExFlyer]

56 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

OK, sure tell me that there has been no PM that has pushed for updated VIP aircraft, those airbuses will be hauling troops until the seats fall out, or the PM says they will be upgraded. 

CFHA has never lost control of the any of the quarters, CFHA is a department within DND.

DND living accommodation means all living accommodation under the control of the Minister of National Defence (MND), except that used for field training or deployed operations.

DAOD 5024-0, DND Living Accommodation - Canada.ca

On many bases PMQ's are being used to accommodate single persons, due to the lack of occupancy. infact most bases have torn down PMQ's due to the historic lack of occupancy. mostly due to it was cheaper to rent downtown than it was for a shi**y PMQ.

DND still maintains budgets for all quarters, not sure who owns campgrounds, golf courses, boat ramps in Petawawa so i am not sure. 

 

 

I was in the Air Force and was aware of the VIP fleet. I had friends flying them and maintaining them. No PM asked for upgrades with  exception of Mulroney (remember the Taj Mahal scandal LOL). He was PM when we got the airbus and his office had input into the VIP package. The Falcons only had regular maintenance to their interiors as did the Challengers. The avionics did require serious upgrades.

The PMQ's  are managed under the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, which is a special operating agency that manages military housing on behalf of the Canadian Department of National Defence . The CFHA is not DND.

I agree PMQ's were being torn down. Lack of occupancy was a problem for the military because no one wanted them. They put singles in there so they did not remain empty and deteriorate.The

 

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Not to mention operated by poorly trained, poorly motivated draftees with equipment which only occasionally works due to lack of maintenance and parts.

We can only speculate, but I don't think it's a stretch to assume their navy is as neglected as their army considering they lost their flagship to a couple of Ukrainian cruise missiles.  

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

That being said, these frigates are anything but small. They're massive compared to the ones we operate now or even the Tribal class destroyers we used to have.

They are more like small destroyers, yes, but they're still quite a bit smaller than a cruiser, or the Moskva in particular.  Hitting a moving ship from far away isn't as easy as you'd think, but it definitely helps to have 50% less mass and volume.  

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Hard to argue with that given Russia's combat performance to date. It's about on par with our procurement performance.

True enough, but if there's one thing that our armed forces generally don't lack it's the quality and training of our soldiers/sailors.  Folks have been talking about cruise missiles making navies obsolete for probably 40 years now, and the Americans (who I'd say are probably the best judges of weapon system efficacy) are still building super carriers and forming their battlegroups around them and have yet to lose a major asset.  

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They are more like small destroyers, yes, but they're still quite a bit smaller than a cruiser, or the Moskva in particular.  Hitting a moving ship from far away isn't as easy as you'd think, but it definitely helps to have 50% less mass and volume.  

Drones are fairly easy to defend against given the ability to spot them at a reasonable distance. That being said, there is no way we have the personnel to man these ships as the navy presently stands, esp once the AOPS' are all up and floating.

Edited November 10, 2022 by I am Groot

[Moonbox]

I think given how long they're going to take to build, there's time to train the sailors needed.  

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Drones are fairly easy to defend against given the ability to spot them at a reasonable distance. That being said, there is no way we have the personnel to man these ships as the navy presently stands, esp once the AOPS' are all up and floating.

Oto Melara firing trials

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I think given how long they're going to take to build, there's time to train the sailors needed.  

Many of them haven't even been conceived yet.

[I am Groot]

14 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think given how long they're going to take to build, there's time to train the sailors needed.  

Training isn't the issue. Recruitment and retention are.

[Moonbox]

12 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Training isn't the issue. Recruitment and retention are.

Yes but the point stands, and you're much more likely to be able to recruit sailors when they'll crew state-of-the-art warships vs old barnacle tubs from 40-50 years ago.  They'll find a way to increase recruitment, but that's a mostly separate problem from procurement.  

[Army Guy]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:58 PM, ExFlyer said:

1... I was in the Air Force and was aware of the VIP fleet. I had friends flying them and maintaining them. No PM asked for upgrades with  exception of Mulroney (remember the Taj Mahal scandal LOL). He was PM when we got the airbus and his office had input into the VIP package. The Falcons only had regular maintenance to their interiors as did the Challengers. The avionics did require serious upgrades.

2...The PMQ's  are managed under the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, which is a special operating agency that manages military housing on behalf of the Canadian Department of National Defence . The CFHA is not DND.

I agree PMQ's were being torn down. Lack of occupancy was a problem for the military because no one wanted them. They put singles in there so they did not remain empty and deteriorate.The

 

1... I get that you were in the air force, but in this case, you seem to have the wrong facts, Mulroney did push to have the Airbuses purchased and upgraded as you mentioned, and Chretien pushed to have Bombardier lear jets purchase of new VIP aircraft, while the forces were mid-stream in reductions somehow the PM's managed to have new VIP aircraft pushed through.

2....I was replying to your post here, in which you state:

Quote

The Military gave all the PMQ's to CMHC because they did not want to maintain them

And yet it is CFHA that has control over all housing PMQ's and SQ's, these are "maintained" through CE which is a department within the Canadian Forces. Upgrades and modernization projects are funded through CFHA, also a department that operates through Minister of National defense.

I mentioned the high vacancy rate in most PMQ areas across the country to underline the fact that there was no waiting line, military members who choose to live in PMQ's at one time, did it to save money to purchase their own home, when rents went up to equal those of downtown, due to another benefit being cut, people moved out because the PMQ's were not the same quality. most if not, all were built in the early 1950's, when family units were larger,but homes were much smaller, and despite that no amount of lipstick were going to bring them up to standard that is found downtown in much more modern and larger homes.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Army Guy

[ExFlyer]

12 hours ago, Army Guy said:

1... I get that you were in the air force, but in this case, you seem to have the wrong facts, Mulroney did push to have the Airbuses purchased and upgraded as you mentioned, and Chretien pushed to have Bombardier lear jets purchase of new VIP aircraft, while the forces were mid-stream in reductions somehow the PM's managed to have new VIP aircraft pushed through.

2....I was replying to your post here, in which you state:

And yet it is CFHA that has control over all housing PMQ's and SQ's, these are "maintained" through CE which is a department within the Canadian Forces. Upgrades and modernization projects are funded through CFHA, also a department that operates through Minister of National defense.

I mentioned the high vacancy rate in most PMQ areas across the country to underline the fact that there was no waiting line, military members who choose to live in PMQ's at one time, did it to save money to purchase their own home, when rents went up to equal those of downtown, due to another benefit being cut, people moved out because the PMQ's were not the same quality. most if not, all were built in the early 1950's, when family units were larger,but homes were much smaller, and despite that no amount of lipstick were going to bring them up to standard that is found downtown in much more modern and larger homes.

 

I am not sure what facts I had wrong? I responded to your comment "no PM that has pushed for updated VIP aircraft, those airbuses will be hauling troops until the seats fall out, or the PM says they will be upgraded. ". I responded to the updating of the VIP aircraft.

Yes, Chretien government bought 2 Challenger VIP jets but they were to replace 2 old Challengers that were being retired.

As for CFHA, it is an agency, not a DND department or organization. It manages the base housing.

You were correct, pressure form the "downtowns" pushed the CFHA to increase prices as they did to increase prices in the Canex. As I said, almost all things that used to be for the military members like arenas and golf course etc, were basically made public and opened to everyone. We, the military lost.

Edited November 11, 2022 by ExFlyer

[I am Groot]

Just came across this. It seems the Royal navy has approved a contract with BAE systems to build 5 more type 26 frigates at a cost of 4.2 billion pounds. That works out to $6.6 billion canbucks, or $1.32 billion per ship. Canada's type 26 ships, by comparison, will cost over $5 billion per ship.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/11/bae-systems-gets-contract-to-build-2nd-batch-of-5-type-26-frigates/

[I am Groot]

The first Type 26 frigate built by BAE systems in Scotland is now in the water. Canada hopes to one day be able to build a similar vessel, though as we've only been working on it for a decade or so it will be at least another ten years before our own Type 26 is launched.

https://www.forces.net/services/navy/new-type-26-frigate-hms-glasgow-takes-water-first-time