Canada's new frigates to cost more than UK's new aircraft carriers

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 They could go anywhere, do almost anything

except win the war

the whole point of war is to impose a resolution by force

the arms for that are called the arms of decision

a frigate it not one of those arms, not in the Napoleonic Wars, and not now neither

[DogOnPorch]

These two cover the great campaigns of the 18th and early 19th centuries in glorious detail. SOLs are expensive...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/10500/Total_War_EMPIRE__Definitive_Edition/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/34030/Total_War_NAPOLEON__Definitive_Edition/

 

[Dougie93]

37 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

These two cover the great campaigns of the 18th and early 19th centuries in glorious detail. SOLs are expensive...

and they still are, they have simply become the SSBN

one SSBN renders all the frigates in the world ineffective for achieving decision

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

and they still are, they have simply become the SSBN

one SSBN renders all the frigates in the world ineffective for achieving decision

 

The ballistic missile subs are MAD stuff. The killers are the SSNs Los Angeles & Seawolf classes. Though as we've discussed before, the ballistic missile subs converted to mass cruise missile platforms are a class unto themselves, now (SSGNs Ohio, Michigan, Florida and Georgia).

[DogOnPorch]

Cold Waters exists for those into that sort of action...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/

 

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The ballistic missile subs are MAD stuff. The killers are the SSNs Los Angeles & Seawolf classes. Though as we've discussed before, the ballistic missile subs converted to mass cruise missile platforms are a class unto themselves, now (SSGNs Ohio, Michigan, Florida and Georgia).

the SSBN acts as the arm of decision simply by preventing the war from happening in the first place

like if there is a confrontation between military powers, things escalate straight to Cuban Missile Crisis

frigates won't ever get to the point of shooting at frigates

either they climb down from the brink, or things kick off with a theatre thermonuclear counterforce

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

except win the war

the whole point of war is to impose a resolution by force

the arms for that are called the arms of decision

a frigate it not one of those arms, not in the Napoleonic Wars, and not now neither

That is debatable because the wars could not have been won without them.  Cochrane was the father of the Chilean navy and destroyed Spanish naval presence in the eastern Pacific. He did the same for the Brazilians against the Portuguese. He wreaked havoc with the French in the Mediterranean but never commanded a ship of the line. He was the real Master and Commander. The Mauritius campaign between the English and French was fought entirely by frigates. Driving the French out of the Ionian and Aegean Seas was accomplished by frigates. That was Hoste. Frigates were the commerce raiders of their era and could destroy a country's trade. In effect, the U Boats of their age. The American threat to Britain in 1812 wasn't to the RN but to British merchant vessels and it was British frigates that strangled American trade, not ships of the line.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Aristides

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Except they did win wars. Cochrane was the father of the Chilean navy and destroyed Spanish naval presence in the eastern Pacific. He did the same for the Brazilians against the Portuguese. The Mauritius campaign between the English and French was fought entirely by frigates. Frigates were the commerce raiders of their era and could destroy a country's trade. In effect, the U Boats of their age. The American threat to Britain in 1812 wasn't to the RN but to British merchant vessels and it was British frigates that strangled American trade, not ships of the line.

I am referring to wars of hegemonic succession, at the strategic level, world wars in effect

Canada is not going to do any commerce raiding

the only naval war Canada is going to fight, is NATO v. Russia and/or China

the Type 26 wouldn't really play much role, it would be a war between nuclear submarines

the reason Canada has frigates, is actually for peacetime operations

counter piracy, counter terrorism, maintaining the flow of trade on the high seas alongside the Americans

which, frankly, Canada doesn't need the Type 26 to do that, the vastly less capable FFH-330's do the job just fine

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I am referring to wars of hegemonic succession, at the strategic level, world wars in effect

Canada is not going to do any commerce raiding

the only naval war Canada is going to fight, is NATO v. Russia and/or China

the Type 26 wouldn't really play much role, it would be a war between nuclear submarines

the reason Canada has frigates, is actually for peacetime operations

counter piracy, counter terrorism, maintaining the flow of trade on the high seas alongside the Americans

which, frankly, Canada doesn't need the Type 26 to do that, the vastly less capable FFH-330's do the job just fine

As a NATO member, one of our commitments is to be compatible with things like carrier task forces. Frigates make up a major part of them. When you look at the shape the world is in today, there is no way of knowing what will be required of our forces in future. 

[Dougie93]

Just now, Aristides said:

As a NATO member, one of our commitments is to be compatible with things like carrier task forces. Frigates make up a major part of them. When you look at the shape the world is in today, there is no way of knowing what will be required of our forces in future. 

Estonia is a NATO member, Latvia is a NATO member, Luxembourg is a NATO member

nothing in the Washington Treaty demands that Canada have an expensive navy

Type 26 is a classic case of DND going for the champagne solution on a beer budget

DND simply can't afford Type 26 based on how Canada spends its defence dollars

this happens over & over with DND

and the result is that the programs get cancelled and the military ends up with nothing

the FFH-330's will have to keep sailing for decades to come, because DND is totally unrealistic in their budgeting

[Dougie93]

and bear in mind, it's not about how much Canada spends

its about how Canada spends

DND is the most inefficient defence department on earth

the vast majority of dollars go to overhead

such as keeping all the bases open in the ridings to buy votes

enough bases for an army of 1,000,000

when Canada only has a standing army of 20,000

so you have to factor in the immense of amount of politically incited waste inherent to Canadian defence

[Dougie93]

furthermore

understand the real purpose of DND

it's not to defend Canada

it's not to fight and win wars

the purpose of DND is regional employment & vote buying boondoggles

that's the only thing that gets votes, so that's the only thing Ottawa cares about defence related

[eyeball]

20 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

furthermore

understand the real purpose of DND

it's not to defend Canada

it's not to fight and win wars

the purpose of DND is regional employment & vote buying boondoggles

that's the only thing that gets votes, so that's the only thing Ottawa cares about defence related

Well if this is truly the case then a peacenik such as myself can rest a little easier knowing my dollars won't be invested in offshore geopolitical boondoggles. There's little to nothing I can do to prevent boondoggles here or abroad so the best I can hope for is that between the political self interest and incompetence typical of Canada's governments our boondoggles won't be too self- destructive.

Kinda like the old safety meeting joke, if nobody moves nobody gets hurt.

[Aristides]

21 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

 

the purpose of DND is regional employment & vote buying boondoggles

that's the only thing that gets votes, so that's the only thing Ottawa cares about defence related

That's also true of the US.

[I am Groot]

On 10/30/2022 at 11:43 AM, Dougie93 said:

not as the arm of decision

the Ships of the Line won the war at Trafalgar

Frigates were patrol & escort vessels which did not engage in decisive battle

two frigates make contact on the high seas, engage in a fight, that's not decisive

Frigates will skirmish with other lesser warships, but they were not part of the battle fleet

I don't think the anti-ship or anti-aircraft missiles fired from frigates today are any less destructive than those fired from destroyers or cruisers.

[Aristides]

Just now, I am Groot said:

I don't think the anti-ship or anti-aircraft missiles fired from frigates today are any less destructive than those fired from destroyers or cruisers.

The are the same missiles.

[I am Groot]

6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The are the same missiles.

Yes. Talking about ship classes from days gone by ignores that in days gone by warships' main armament were guns, and the bigger the ship the bigger the gun and the longer its range A bigger ship could start firing on a smaller one before the smaller one even got into range. None of this is true today.

I might also add the Type 26 frigates are bigger and heavier, and have a longer range than the Tribal class destroyers, which were the last ones Canada had before their decommissioning. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by I am Groot

[Aristides]

Modern 5" or 127 mm naval guns using Volcano guided ammunition can hit targets 80 km away with an accuracy within 5 metres. Even their guns are lethal.

The maximum range of the large caliber naval guns used by battleships was less than half that.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Aristides

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

the purpose of DND is regional employment & vote buying boondoggles

that's the only thing that gets votes, so that's the only thing Ottawa cares about defence related

I'm pretty sure our military industries matter to Ottawa.  Of course that concern evaporates the moment someone we export weapons to causes a boondoggle stink that may require a contribution of resources to help dispel.

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Well if this is truly the case then a peacenik such as myself can rest a little easier knowing my dollars won't be invested in offshore geopolitical boondoggles. There's little to nothing I can do to prevent boondoggles here or abroad so the best I can hope for is that between the political self interest and incompetence typical of Canada's governments our boondoggles won't be too self- destructive.

Kinda like the old safety meeting joke, if nobody moves nobody gets hurt.

I've become an old peacenik myself

although I didn't join the military wanting to go to war

because it was the Cold War, so going to war would have been World War Three

that the Iron Curtain would fall and NATO would become a global intervention force, I didn't see that coming  at the time

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

That's also true of the US.

except America spends so much, that the US military is most heavily armed in the world

in Canada, there is no trickle down in terms of arms actually getting to the troops in the field

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I don't think the anti-ship or anti-aircraft missiles fired from frigates today are any less destructive than those fired from destroyers or cruisers.

the Destroyers & Cruisers have larger magazines, more missiles

a DDG-51 destroyer has 90 Mk.41 vertical launch cells

the Type 26 only has 32

[Dougie93]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm pretty sure our military industries matter to Ottawa.

primarily for export

the Canadian defence industry could not survive on the DND budget

most arms produced in Canada are for export

[Dougie93]

in terms of major upgrades for Canada, the primary one on the Type 26 would be the radar

the Raytheon AN/SPY-7 Air & Missile Defense Radar ( AMDR )

this is the latest American Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA)

this is a radar that can see into low earth orbit

so it would allow Canada to deploy Anti Ballistic Missiles as part of the American Ballistic Missile Defense

with the Raytheon RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 Light Exo Atmospheric Projectile (LEAP)

[Dougie93]

another significant upgrade;

would be the Canadian made Ultra Electronics Variable Depth Low Frequency Active Passive Sonar ( LFAPS )

this is actually two sonars which work in tandem

a variable depth low frequency emitter, with a towed passive receiver

this allows sound to be projected and received over wide areas, with very accurate detection

this is the state of the art in Anti Submarine Warfare acoustic sensors

manufactured in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia