Russian Army collapsing - the unsurprising failure of a police-state

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Desired effect and simply an effect are vastly different. Pointing to the former. 

Desired effect and optimal effect are also vastly different.  

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

With adjustments, they are not being hurt like the west stated they would be.

We can agree to disagree on those facts.

I can agree that the western media had an overly rosy idea of the scale and immediacy of Russia's economic pain.  Russia was able to prop up their currency with a war chest they'd built up over a decade (which is close to gone now) and with spiked oil prices (which have since fallen).  

However unrealistic western prognostications were, we have to also keep in mind that Russia doesn't provide a fair accounting of much of anything when it comes to their economy.  25% of Russia's budget in 2023 is completely classified.  

[Perspektiv]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:12 PM, taxme said:

because they dare to ask questions and challenge anything

This is unnacceptable within the woke hard left. 

Do any bit of research, and will see how corrupt the Ukrainian regime is. 

Many in the west genuinely believe they are perfectly westernized and no more corrupt than a G7 nation. That the LGBTQ community were just fine there, and accepted wholeheartedly.

Its easy to sell this to the masses, and ignore the history of conflict that these countries have with one another.

Anyone with half a brain understand that the US is trying to crush Russia by using Ukrainian blood.

This is a proxy war, using Ukraine territory and western weapons against a despised foe. Its why the US was talking tough and not dialing things down when Putin was threatening.

This has zero to do with fighting for freedom, or the fear mongering that Russia will try to rebuild the USSR.

They keep you in a state of panic, as it justifies sending billions constantly, and makes one less demanding for results and more answers. 

 

Hard to demand peace when the world is about to end. Same rhetoric that has Canadians not questioning or demanding answers on why tax payers are being hosed at the pump, and not those who produce fuel to begin with.

[OftenWrong]

19 hours ago, Boges said:

I'm not sure if you have member Moonbox blocked but you he has sourced your picture to a news report to an Exodus of young working men when Putin declared a partial conscription. 

Looks like a long line of trucks to me. Do those young men fleeing conscription all drive 18-wheelers?

[Boges]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Looks like a long line of trucks to me. Do those young men fleeing conscription all drive 18-wheelers?

Dunno, but that's the image used in the story specifically talking about an exodus of people leaving Russia to avoid conscription and not evidence of Russia's robust economy post sanctions. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Well, the Russian Army isn’t collapsing quickly enough for my liking. They are still advancing in some areas. 

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

This is unnacceptable within the woke hard left. 

Do any bit of research, and will see how corrupt the Ukrainian regime is. 

Many in the west genuinely believe they are perfectly westernized and no more corrupt than a G7 nation. That the LGBTQ community were just fine there, and accepted wholeheartedly.

Its easy to sell this to the masses, and ignore the history of conflict that these countries have with one another.

Anyone with half a brain understand that the US is trying to crush Russia by using Ukrainian blood.

This is a proxy war, using Ukraine territory and western weapons against a despised foe. Its why the US was talking tough and not dialing things down when Putin was threatening.

This has zero to do with fighting for freedom, or the fear mongering that Russia will try to rebuild the USSR.

They keep you in a state of panic, as it justifies sending billions constantly, and makes one less demanding for results and more answers. 

 

Hard to demand peace when the world is about to end. Same rhetoric that has Canadians not questioning or demanding answers on why tax payers are being hosed at the pump, and not those who produce fuel to begin with.

Russia invaded Ukraine.

[Perspektiv]

24 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Russia invaded Ukraine.

The US invaded Iraq. 

Iraq invaded Kuwait. 

I could go on, with regards to invasions. 

Why is it bad to ask how one is unnacceptable and the concerns raised aren't worth looking into or discussing, and the other is perfectly fine?

I don't buy the Russians invaded Ukraine for no reason. 

You don't invest billions at war, for no reason. Destroy your economy, and send people to die, for no reason.

War is about protecting your own interests. 

[OftenWrong]

25 minutes ago, Boges said:

Dunno, but that's the image used in the story specifically talking about an exodus of people leaving Russia to avoid conscription and not evidence of Russia's robust economy post sanctions. 

I know it's challenging to question things.

Easier to just consume the info at face value, and stay comfortable.

[Boges]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

I know it's challenging to question things.

Easier to just consume the info at face value, and stay comfortable.

I am questioning a cite as to where we can know that Russia's economy is booming despite hundreds of thousands of working mean being sent to the meat grinder and them being a global pariah to the developed world. 

The member in question still hasn't provided any citation, just conjecture. At least Moonbox cited something to back his claim. 

[Nationalist]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:15 PM, Moonbox said:

Beautiful.  Let's keep that quote up there for everyone to see.  It's the dumbest thing anyone's ever said on this thread, and it's all yours . 

Yup...that partial quote is mine alrighty. Its comforting to know you Libbies can never be honourable and honest.  But hey...you are what you eat...

Speaking of eating...

On 7/26/2023 at 1:38 PM, Moonbox said:

Nobody said that western goods weren't still getting to Russia, but when your entire western border (where most of your population lives) is closed and no western countries are willing to trade with you, secondary and black markets are all you've got.  Your prices will be worse and your supply much lower too.  Pretending that the sanctions haven't had effect is deluded.  

OOPS! Looks to me like these Russians will be eating just fine.

But thanks for your concern...

[Aristides]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

The US invaded Iraq. 

Iraq invaded Kuwait. 

I could go on, with regards to invasions. 

Why is it bad to ask how one is unnacceptable and the concerns raised aren't worth looking into or discussing, and the other is perfectly fine?

I don't buy the Russians invaded Ukraine for no reason. 

You don't invest billions at war, for no reason. Destroy your economy, and send people to die, for no reason.

War is about protecting your own interests. 

Who said any of them were acceptable. Of course Ukraine was invaded for a reason the rebuilding of the Russian Empire. Ukraine was no threat to Russia.  Investing in defence is not investing in war, it is the opposite. 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Who said any of them were acceptable. Of course Ukraine was invaded for a reason the rebuilding of the Russian Empire. Ukraine was no threat to Russia.  Investing in defence is not investing in war, it is the opposite. 

The rebuilding of the Russian Empire?

Man you need to get off the Fruit Loops.

Ukraine was not a threat to Russia...it was and still is a threat to the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.

Ya know...you really should try to be completely truthful.

[Aristides]

Just now, Nationalist said:

The rebuilding of the Russian Empire?

Man you need to get off the Fruit Loops.

Ukraine was not a threat to Russia...it was and still is a threat to the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.

Ya know...you really should try to be completely truthful.

Same excuse Hitler used to invade Austria and Czechoslovakia. Back an armed separatist movement and then claim they are being persecuted.  

Try it yourself.

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Same excuse Hitler used to invade Austria and Czechoslovakia. Back an armed separatist movement and then claim they are being persecuted.  

Try it yourself.

Oh Gawd...you war mongers just love to pull Hitler out of the grave, don't ya.

That was then...this is now. And in recent history...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

And hey...here's a cute quote I just know ur-a-gonna love.

Quote

"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

Actual events that actually have had an effect on the current situation, would be much more valuable in understanding the situation, then digging up Hitler every time you run out of bullshit.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nationalist

[Aristides]

30 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Oh Gawd...you war mongers just love to pull Hitler out of the grave, don't ya.

That was then...this is now. And in recent history...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

And hey...here's a cute quote I just know ur-a-gonna love.

Actual events that actually have had an effect on the current situation, would be much more valuable in understanding the situation, then digging up Hitler every time you run out of bullshit.

I'm not saying Putin is Hitler, just using the same play book. It worked before so why not.

I think the Azovs and Wagners are peas in a pod. 

 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Yup...that partial quote is mine alrighty. Its comforting to know you Libbies can never be honourable and honest.  But hey...you are what you eat...

There's the full quote!  Let's see...Yep! It's still incredibly stupid!

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Speaking of eating...

OOPS! Looks to me like these Russians will be eating just fine.

But thanks for your concern...

A picture of a grocery store from a free stock photo website?  Every time I think we've reached the floor on your foolishness, you up the ante and prove me wrong.   

[Aristides]

Russian people's militias in Ukraine.

[Perspektiv]

49 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Who said any of them were acceptable.

The lack of consequences for the US.

50 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Ukraine was no threat to Russia.

NATOs eastward push is. Western values in Ukraine, are. 

To say there was no threat is to refuse to understand the underlying reasons why Russia would take such a risk. Painting Putin as crazy, ignores how calculated these moves were, albeit in catastrophic failure.

It also ignores the similar dynamics between China and Taiwan which in this case are globally respected, and scoffed at on the Russian side.

The US knows challenging China on Taiwan would result in a heavy handed rebuke, so they play the diplomacy game right down go how they call Taiwan Taipei, diplomatically.

So Putin demanding the same respect getting laughed at, got the rebuke that was brewing since 2013.

Am not justifying the behavior, but won't sit there and act like Ukraine was just minding their business, when out of nowhere....

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

I'm not saying Putin is Hitler, just using the same play book. It worked before so why not.

I think the Azovs and Wagners are peas in a pod. 

 

A lot o' reasons.

Agreed. There is a similarly between them.

[Nationalist]

56 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

There's the full quote!  Let's see...Yep! It's still incredibly stupid!

A picture of a grocery store from a free stock photo website?  Every time I think we've reached the floor on your foolishness, you up the ante and prove me wrong.   

And you lose yet again.

Have a nice evening. 

[Aristides]

40 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

The lack of consequences for the US.

NATOs eastward push is. Western values in Ukraine, are. 

To say there was no threat is to refuse to understand the underlying reasons why Russia would take such a risk. Painting Putin as crazy, ignores how calculated these moves were, albeit in catastrophic failure.

It also ignores the similar dynamics between China and Taiwan which in this case are globally respected, and scoffed at on the Russian side.

The US knows challenging China on Taiwan would result in a heavy handed rebuke, so they play the diplomacy game right down go how they call Taiwan Taipei, diplomatically.

So Putin demanding the same respect getting laughed at, got the rebuke that was brewing since 2013.

Am not justifying the behavior, but won't sit there and act like Ukraine was just minding their business, when out of nowhere....

NATO didn't push, you have to apply to join and receive 100% approval from existing members.

[Perspektiv]

10 minutes ago, Aristides said:

NATO didn't push, you have to apply to join and receive 100% approval from existing members.

Of course, but it did move closer to a mortal enemy. Eastward. 

Nobody forced anyone into anything, but the point am highlights is the threat to Russia.

See it as if Russia set up military strong holds in Mexico. In Japan. The Philippines, so on.

You best believe it would be met with heavy handed protest from the US, if not military deterrence.

I see this as no different.

Stop looking at this with emotion.

Look at it strictly strategically, the way wars are fought, and you will understand Russias stance  regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

I fully disagree with Russias decision, but fully understand why it invaded.

To refuse to understand and only allowing for Russia = Bad, US = Good, is viewing this conflict through the propagandist lenses of the west.

Maybe am crazy.

I need to understand all sides of a story, prior to passing judgment. The more one side is silenced and am shamed for seeking to looking into it, the more I will want to explore it. 

Meaning, Ukraine, good bad and ugly, Russia and US.

[sharkman]

I laughed at the title of this thread several months ago, saying it was the longest collapse of a major power’ army in history.

Apparently some are still under the delusion that the Russian army is collapsing(yeah, that’s why the US sent over cluster bombs).

I give you Newsweek, and an article that says out loud that the Ukraine offensive went nowhere.  And it’s NATO’s fault.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-counteroffensive-russia-plan-zelensky-putin-1814291

“Ukraine's previous offensives were successful last year when faced with Russian forces who were thinly spread out and struggling with logistical and command difficulties. Now Ukraine is advancing against well-prepared Russian defenses.

Kyiv's new Western-supplied weaponry has been met by valleys of trenches dug by Russians along the 600-mile front line. These include minefields, anti-tank ditches and "dragon's teeth"—square-pyramidal shaped pieces of concrete used to stop military vehicles.”

Now, moonboy’s opinions aside, does that sound like a collapsing Russian army?

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by sharkman

[sharkman]

46 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Sir, is well known the Ukrainian military has issues following what they were taught as this classified leaked document from the German army suggests:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/german-papers-ukraine-war-leaked-secret-documents-2023-t65stnldx

However, you are not here to critique for the good of the West, you are here to critique for Putin, because the social changes scare you, so instead of doing the work here you run to the enemy, Putin for comfort towards your sexual confusing "feelings".

No, the UFOs scare me.  You, on the other hand, make me laugh.  Keep up the good work on your battle with the bottle komrad, posting here 100’s of times per week is probably good therapy for you.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

Sir, is well known the Ukrainian military has issues following what they were taught as this classified leaked document from the German army suggests:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/german-papers-ukraine-war-leaked-secret-documents-2023-t65stnldx

However, you are not here to critique for the good of the West, you are here to critique for Putin, because the social changes scare you, so instead of doing the work here you run to the enemy, Putin for comfort towards your sexual confusing "feelings".

I'd like to address The emboldened bit here.

Question: How is being critical of one side, even if its the side one lives in, equate to being critical FOR the other side? That strikes me as very elementary thought. Perhaps you would explain?