Trudeau's out-of-control spending - something has to give

[August1991]

Is our Central Bank willing to raise interest rates? Can it withstand the political pressure?

There's the question.

=====

The US federal government has borrowed alot.

When push comes to shove, why not just print more money to pay the debt. 

[August1991]

LBJ's Medicare? Not sustainable.

FDR's social security? Not sustainable.

Pearson's CPP? Not sustainable.

======

Sustainable means that whatever happens, it works - far into the future.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, August1991 said:

LBJ's Medicare? Not sustainable.

FDR's social security? Not sustainable.

Pearson's CPP? Not sustainable.

======

Sustainable means that whatever happens, it works - far into the future.

FDR was elected in 1932 I think.

How much 'future' is enough for you??

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, August1991 said:

I disagree. We in Canada are not in debt. Our collective government debt to GDP ratio is below 100%. Like Norway, our pensions schemes have paper claims on future real wealth.

The debt to GDP ratio that has been touted over the years is an accounting trick.  Canada Pension Plan's holdings are included on the asset side of that calculation which grossly overstates how good these numbers look.  Without that included (which shouldn't be) we don't look any better than the countries Trudeau keeps comparing us to.  

I've talked about how/why the CPP changes from the 1990's changed how this is all accounted for and how Canada is fairly unique in this regard, but you can read about it here:

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/caution-required-when-comparing-canadas-debt-to-that-of-other-countries

Edited September 13, 2022 by Moonbox

[Moonbox]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I just wanted to add i see your point your trying to make here, after watching the below U tube...It's about the liberals twisting facts to make themselves look good.

 

I'm not a huge fan of hers in general mainly on account of her channeling the boob vote and the hurr durr fake news crowd, but like Poilievre she's smart and I agree with her on a fair bit of stuff.  She actually knows what she's talking about in this video though and she's absolutely right here.  

[Jack9000]

dunno why all the attacks on trudeau is he perfect ? no but we still had the lowest inflation rate of any major country from pandemic..  so the justininflation  line pierre uses is just pure bs and people falling for it are just not very bright its worldwide inflation and considering ours is the lowest of the major countrys i woulld say trudeau is doing not as bad as  westerners  claim.  although not surprising for them to be happy it has to be the letter C next to the name to ballot

[Moonbox]

I'm not talking about inflation here.  I'm talking about government overspending, which Trudeau is guilty of.  He was overspending before the pandemic and he's overspending now.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and accept the COVID stimulus and lockdowns, but the way he's expanding the federal public service is just bad fiscal management - full stop.  

You're absolutely right that "Justinflation" is a circus act that every opposition around the world is using to attack its standing government, but there is at least a grain of truth to it.  Running huge and unnecessary deficits makes the problem worse, not better.  

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Jack9000 said:

dunno why all the attacks on trudeau is he perfect ? no but we still had the lowest inflation rate of any major country from pandemic..  so the justininflation  line pierre uses is just pure bs and people falling for it are just not very bright its worldwide inflation and considering ours is the lowest of the major countrys i woulld say trudeau is doing not as bad as  westerners  claim.  although not surprising for them to be happy it has to be the letter C next to the name to ballot

Perhaps you can point out what Liberal policy or action has kept our inflation rate as low as you claim it is. Or is it just Justins luck we scored where we did. or like everything else is it an accounting trick. 

And are you really going to hang your vote for the liberals on that point alone? perhaps you can give a small list of things they have done, in the last 8 years that will guarantee your vote or change mine ? 

Do you really think that continued excess spending is good for the country. 

[Moonbox]

On 9/13/2022 at 4:43 PM, Army Guy said:

Perhaps you can point out what Liberal policy or action has kept our inflation rate as low as you claim it is. Or is it just Justins luck we scored where we did. or like everything else is it an accounting trick. 

There are two sides to that argument.  If you're going to blame Trudeau for inflation (which has little/nothing to do with him), you should also give him credit for how well we've fared compared to most of the rest of the world (whose inflation is worse).  Of course he deserves credit for neither, but let's not cherry-pick to suit our political viewpoints.  

Fact is that inflation is a global phenomenon and thus blaming it on Trudeau is foolish to start.  An ounce of objective reasoning should show you that.  Similarly, Canada's (relative) better position on inflation is due entirely to the War in Ukraine and commodity prices keeping our dollar strong, which counteracts the forces of inflation (to an extent).  Trudeau had no hand in that either.  

On 9/13/2022 at 4:43 PM, Army Guy said:

Do you really think that continued excess spending is good for the country. 

This is where Trudeau should be criticized.  He is grossly overspending and mismanaging our finances, but that's not what's driving inflation.  He's just quickly creating a public finances crisis.  

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

There are two sides to that argument.  If you're going to blame Trudeau for inflation (which has little/nothing to do with him), you should also give him credit for how well we've fared compared to most of the rest of the world (whose inflation is worse).  Of course he deserves credit for neither, but let's not cherry-pick to suit our political viewpoints.  

Fact is that inflation is a global phenomenon and thus blaming it on Trudeau is foolish to start.  An ounce of objective reasoning should show you that.  Similarly, Canada's (relative) better position on inflation is due entirely to the War in Ukraine and commodity prices keeping our dollar strong, which counteracts the forces of inflation (to an extent).  Trudeau had no hand in that either.  

This is where Trudeau should be criticized.  He is grossly overspending and mismanaging our finances, but that's not what's driving inflation.  He's just quickly creating a public finances crisis.  

1. At no time was did i mention Justins role in inflation, Jack was touting that his like of the liberal government was based on the fact Canada has one of the lowest inflation rates in the West. So i asked him, what policy or action did Justin take to create our low inflation rate in which he gave Justin credit for.. 

The fact has already been established that excess spending like we have seen does play a factor in our inflation rate, So his actions have played a role in all of that , a small role is still a role. 

2. Lets be honest there is a long list of things Justin could be criticized for. over spending is just but one of them. And while i am no economist, there are liberals on here that seem to think that huge spending practices and huge deficits mean nothing more than a distraction, a so what moment. It is not a concern for them.

[herbie]

You can spend if you want to try to fix things

You can not spend and not fix things

You can cut spending and make things worse.

Those are about the only choices a politician can make.

[RedDog]

Nobody is going to take financial planning tips from anyone from PAYbec. The ultimate welfare drecks.

[herbie]

Even less so than from a dumb redneck.

If you want to spout gibberish, make it funny at least.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

You can spend if you want to try to fix things

You can not spend and not fix things

You can cut spending and make things worse.

Those are about the only choices a politician can make.

At what point to we say maybe we have spent to much, have you given any thought who has to pay this debt down...

How many social programs do we need... key word there is need, not want.

[herbie]

28 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

At what point to we say maybe we have spent to much, have you given any thought who has to pay this debt down...

How many social programs do we need... key word there is need, not want.

When all the wants are met is when we stop spending. And when the Loyal Opposition understand cutting the GST permanently was the dumbest move ever.

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

1. At no time was did i mention Justins role in inflation, Jack was touting that his like of the liberal government was based on the fact Canada has one of the lowest inflation rates in the West. So i asked him, what policy or action did Justin take to create our low inflation rate in which he gave Justin credit for.. 

I never said you mentioned it, but you can obviously acknowledge that it has been PP's primary talking point over the last few months.  Folks are quick to blame him for it, though it has practically nothing to do with him.  

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The fact has already been established that excess spending like we have seen does play a factor in our inflation rate, So his actions have played a role in all of that , a small role is still a role. 

Government largesse absolutely has a role in causing inflation, but it's not an immediate effect and what we've seen thus far has very little to do with Justin's policy.  It's the same everywhere in the world.  It's when the government starts having to print money to pay back and service the debt where we really land in hot water.  That's where Justin has us headed, and quickly.  

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

2. Lets be honest there is a long list of things Justin could be criticized for. over spending is just but one of them. And while i am no economist, there are liberals on here that seem to think that huge spending practices and huge deficits mean nothing more than a distraction, a so what moment. It is not a concern for them.

That's the Trudeau way.  Like his father before him, he'll torpedo our public finances and set the country back 30 years financially.  

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, herbie said:

When all the wants are met is when we stop spending. And when the Loyal Opposition understand cutting the GST permanently was the dumbest move ever.

So, this is not about what is best for the country at all, this is about individuals and how they can line their pockets with taxpayers' money. Do you run your house like this, ensure everyone's individual wants are meet regardless of cost or debt? And if not, why do you expect the country to run like that. 

I am only assuming you have many wants, what other social programs are you expecting? And what would you think if Government needed to cancel the most recent additions to social programs because they were unsustainable over the long term. 

[Army Guy]

19 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I never said you mentioned it, but you can obviously acknowledge that it has been PP's primary talking point over the last few months.  Folks are quick to blame him for it, though it has practically nothing to do with him.  

Government largesse absolutely has a role in causing inflation, but it's not an immediate effect and what we've seen thus far has very little to do with Justin's policy.  It's the same everywhere in the world.  It's when the government starts having to print money to pay back and service the debt where we really land in hot water.  That's where Justin has us headed, and quickly.  

That's the Trudeau way.  Like his father before him, he'll torpedo our public finances and set the country back 30 years financially.  

Yes PP has been talking a lot of trash talk, and somehow it got him to this point I'm not sure how, but at this point i think reality will start to kick in. Thats the problem with being a leader of anything, you get to take credit for everyone's work, but you also bear responsibility for everyone failures as well, except somehow when you're a politician where you take credit for everything good, and throw someone under the bus when things go bad...

I really don't place all the blame at Justin's feet, Canadians had a role to play here as well, all Canadians not just liberals, we should have seen this coming after his first term. And while the pandemic did a number on the entire planet, His government could have done a lot of things better, faster, and more efficiently, over all he did an ok job during the pandemic, or a 5/10. But OK is not what the nation deserves it deserves way better. 

[Moonbox]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:18 PM, Army Guy said:

Yes PP has been talking a lot of trash talk, and somehow it got him to this point I'm not sure how, but at this point i think reality will start to kick in.

Because frothing up the furthest reaches of your "base" is how party leaders get elected.  It's same for the Liberals.  Pierre told the Bible-Thumpers, the libertarians, the crypto-bros and all of the folk out west who are angry at Trudeau (and let's be honest - they have some reasons to be) exactly what they wanted to hear.  

As you say, reality starts to sink in now.  Now he has to pivot from just repeating people's sentiments back to them to actually forming a winning identity.  I don't like the guy, but if he can muzzle the donkeys in his party like Harper did, and if the bullshit about crypto and the truckers etc was just making noises they wanted to here, I could see myself giving him a chance.  

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Because frothing up the furthest reaches of your "base" is how party leaders get elected.  It's same for the Liberals.  Pierre told the Bible-Thumpers, the libertarians, the crypto-bros and all of the folk out west who are angry at Trudeau (and let's be honest - they have some reasons to be) exactly what they wanted to hear.  

As you say, reality starts to sink in now.  Now he has to pivot from just repeating people's sentiments back to them to actually forming a winning identity.  I don't like the guy, but if he can muzzle the donkeys in his party like Harper did, and if the bullshit about crypto and the truckers etc was just making noises they wanted to here, I could see myself giving him a chance.  

that is the American system

Canada has a Westminster Parliament

so you don't vote for the Prime Minister

only for an MP to represent your riding

but since Canadians now vote like Americans

this is how you get to a completely dysfunctional parliament

where the MP's are all just cronies to the Prime Minister, making all PM's into dictators

 

[Moonbox]

Thanks for your input Dougie.  ?

[I am Groot]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:58 PM, Moonbox said:

 Fact is that inflation is a global phenomenon and thus blaming it on Trudeau is foolish to start.  An ounce of objective reasoning should show you that.  Similarly, Canada's (relative) better position on inflation is due entirely to the War in Ukraine and commodity prices keeping our dollar strong, which counteracts the forces of inflation (to an extent).  Trudeau had no hand in that either.  

Yesterday the news said our dollar was the weakest its been against the American dollar in two years. Inflation is a worldwide phenomenon, the result of so many countries living beyond their means.  the inflation rate in Switzerland is three and half percent. The rate in Zimbabwe is 60%. How well a nation minds its dollars and cents does have an impact even in a worldwide inflationary period. The way Canada, as well as the US have been borrowing and spending for so long made inflation completely predictable. I worked quite hard to pay off my mortgage over the past three years, as well as the car loan because I saw this coming. Got them both done in late winter. 

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Yesterday the news said our dollar was the weakest its been against the American dollar in two years.

In two whole years?  That's doesn't really mean much of anything.  

The USD's strength is based on its reserve status and little more.  

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I worked quite hard to pay off my mortgage over the past three years, as well as the car loan because I saw this coming. Got them both done in late winter. 

If you paid your mortgage off over the last three years, it was probably mostly paid off anyways.  Your car loan was likely fixed rate, so these anecdotes aren't exactly remarkable.  

Most of the people saying "they saw this coming" were predicting inflation would spiral out of control.  By next year it will probably be back close to normal, and all of the crypto-bros and conspiracy clowns will conveniently forget how wrong they were in their proclamations.  

*edit*
 

This post seems aggressive against you groot and it wasn't meant to be.  As far as spending sending inflation out of control, we're not at a point where it's really hitting yet.  The government hasn't been printing money to pay off the debt.  Our credit ratings haven't tanked (yet).  The problem is that this is the trajectory Trudeau-style spending has us on.  It will become a big problem, and much sooner than he'd have us believe.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Moonbox

[Goddess]

A friend of mine in Alberta has had a pretty lucrative side hustle for about 10 years - she's a fabulous baker and canner.  Made the most amazing pickled carrots and candied jalapenos.

She just posted this on her side hustle facebook page:

 

Quote

 

Well, it's time.

This girl is hanging up her apron!

With the price of produce and fuel - It just is not feasable to continue.

I will be finishing up making what I have on hand, will make some jalapenos and post it when ready - however Dec 31st we will be closing.

Thank you all for absolutely all the support you have given us. We couldn't have done it without you

 

 

[Nexii]

We've spent an awful lot of money with little to show for it. Health care is in shambles across the country. It'd be one thing if all that money went into infrastructure but it didn't. It went to rich business owners and government employees to sit at home and do no work.