The death industry for the disabled, mentally ill, and poor is ramping up in Canada

[betsy]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:02 PM, TreeBeard said:

What if 2 people just decide to divorce and it’s not harmful or destructive?  Clearly, the bible is against this sort of divorce, so should it be illegal?  

Whether it's legal or not, isn't the point.

A God-fearing Christian would know that it is offensive to God.  A God-fearing person will be obedient to God.

Edited August 29, 2022 by betsy

[TreeBeard]

On 8/26/2022 at 3:48 PM, blackbird said:

No, the right to divorce is a basic human right, although it may be against the Bible in some cases.  But the Bible view on it is really directed to believers.  Governments can not go overboard in controlling non-believers on the subject of marriage and divorce because it is a complex arrangement and is fundamentally up to the couple to decide, not the state, not the Pope, and not churches.  I don't believe in Popery or authoritarianism.  Now, tell us what you believe.

So, I’m not bound by your bible when it comes to divorce, but I should be bound by it when it comes to assisted suicide. 
 

How do you pick and choose which should and which shouldn’t apply to the rest of society?

[TreeBeard]

10 hours ago, betsy said:

Whether it's legal or not, isn't the point.

A God-fearing Christian would know that it is offensive to God.  A God-fearing person will be obedient to God.

Absolutely.  I’m glad we’re in agreement that you can choose to please God based on your religious tenants and I can choose something else, like assisted suicide in Canada, because I’m not concerned with what your god thinks.   

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

So, I’m not bound by your bible when it comes to divorce, but I should be bound by it when it comes to assisted suicide. 
 

How do you pick and choose which should and which shouldn’t apply to the rest of society?

Unbelievers have no forgiveness for their wrongs they do against God and the Bible because they are in opposition to God and the Bible, unless they become converted, repent and believe the gospel.  So your assumption that you are not bound when it comes to the Bible is false.  I may not have worded it the best way in my previous post.  But the government should not be making laws to prevent divorce because it is a personal thing between couples and God.  The state is not in a position to determine who should get a divorce.  Don't make the mistake of thinking you are safe and can do whatever you wish because you are not a believer.  You are still accountable.

Edited August 29, 2022 by blackbird

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

 A God-fearing person will be obedient to God.

I don't experience the presence of Christ as an authority demanding obedience

it is more like a path, which He beckons me to follow

the fear of God is not that I will be punished

the fear is simply that the presence might not come back, should I forsake Him

the darkness is there all around me

Jesus would not stop me from me from falling into it

as that would make me a doll

instead, He simply leads from the front, and I endeavour to keep up, chasing Him towards the light

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

But the government should not be making laws to prevent divorce because it is a personal thing between couples and God.  The state is not in a position to determine who should get a divorce. 

So divorce is between 2 people and God, so the state should allow divorce.  
 

So why isn’t assisted suicide the same and the state should allow it and allow it to be an issue between a person and God?

[Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

So divorce is between 2 people and God, so the state should allow divorce.  
 

So why isn’t assisted suicide the same and the state should allow it and allow it to be an issue between a person and God?

It’s the assisted part.  The state shouldn’t be in the business of putting people to death, especially when it’s highly arguable that the people getting assistance are under pressure or not of sound mind. 

[TreeBeard]

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s the assisted part.  The state shouldn’t be in the business of putting people to death, especially when it’s highly arguable that the people getting assistance are under pressure or not of sound mind. 

The state isn’t putting people to death.  That’s an asinine interpretation of the legislation.   It is allowing them to choose to die with some dignity rather than in agony.  

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

The state isn’t putting people to death.  That’s an asinine interpretation of the legislation.   It is allowing them to choose to die with some dignity rather than in agony.  

Providing lethal drugs to people is killing, or have you developed a new word gymnastics to redefine lethal as something else?

[TreeBeard]

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Providing lethal drugs to people is killing, or have you developed a new word gymnastics to redefine lethal as something else?

So then the state is killing someone when the person takes that legally obtained and government regulated shotgun and blow themselves away.   
 

You do realize that assisted suicide is the choice of the person, don’t you?

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

So then the state is killing someone when the person takes that legally obtained and government regulated shotgun and blow themselves away.   
 

You do realize that assisted suicide is the choice of the person, don’t you?

It doesn’t work that way.  The specific purpose of those drugs is killing a person.  You can’t provide that to people and have no hand in the killing.  Similarly, you can’t say that a doctor who performs abortions plays no role in the abortions. 

[TreeBeard]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It doesn’t work that way.  The specific purpose of those drugs is killing a person.  You can’t provide that to people and have no hand in the killing.  Similarly, you can’t say that a doctor who performs abortions plays no role in the abortions. 

The state plays the same role in abortion that it does in assisted suicide.  It provides the regulatory mechanism (or lack thereof) for doctors to carry it out.  To say the state performs abortions or kills people is just stupid.  

[Zeitgeist]

35 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

The state plays the same role in abortion that it does in assisted suicide.  It provides the regulatory mechanism (or lack thereof) for doctors to carry it out.  To say the state performs abortions or kills people is just stupid.  

No it isn’t.  You can’t remove the state’s role.  Saying you can is a lie.  State approval is state approval. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[TreeBeard]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No it isn’t.  You can’t remove the state’s role.  Saying you can is a lie.  State approval is state approval. 

Yes, the state approves of people choosing to die with doctor assistance.  Absolutely.  Hooray for that!
 

But, that’s not what you said, was it?

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The state shouldn’t be in the business of putting people to death

This is what you said the state is doing.  “Putting people to death”. 

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Yes, the state approves of people choosing to die with doctor assistance.  Absolutely.  Hooray for that!
 

But, that’s not what you said, was it?

This is what you said the state is doing.  “Putting people to death”. 

That’s what the state is doing.  Don’t obfuscate the truth.  

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Yes, the state approves of people choosing to die with doctor assistance.  Absolutely.  Hooray for that!
 

But, that’s not what you said, was it?

This is what you said the state is doing.  “Putting people to death”. 

BOTH the state and the doctors who administer the lethal injections are accomplices to the killing.  There is no other way to describe it.  Just because a person signs a suicide pact to be killed by someone does not eliminate the culpability.

[OftenWrong]

32 minutes ago, blackbird said:

BOTH the state and the doctors who administer the lethal injections are accomplices to the killing.  There is no other way to describe it.  Just because a person signs a suicide pact to be killed by someone does not eliminate the culpability.

On the other hand if I as an elderly man choose to make my own exit, this is not a lightly made decision. In my opinion you have no right to interfere.

[Yzermandius19]

4 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Yes, the state approves of people choosing to die with doctor assistance.  Absolutely.  Hooray for that!
 

But, that’s not what you said, was it?

This is what you said the state is doing.  “Putting people to death”. 

the person wanting to be killed

doesn't make it not killing them

[blackbird]

35 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

On the other hand if I as an elderly man choose to make my own exit, this is not a lightly made decision. In my opinion you have no right to interfere.

Since it is legal under certain criteria, I don't have any right to interfere.  That doesn't mean I agree with it.  I don't.  The fact that it is legal does not make it morally right in God's view according to his word and prohibition against killing.

[OftenWrong]

34 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Since it is legal under certain criteria, I don't have any right to interfere.  That doesn't mean I agree with it.  I don't.

Then you lack compassion, or at least understanding what terminal illness is all about. Any god who doesnt like it will just have to put up with the fact. Sometimes death is not the worst thing there is.

While I dont agree with the notion of suggestion selling death to someone to save money, I do think it is right and fair to let a person with terminal illness know their options. 

[OftenWrong]

46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Since it is legal under certain criteria, I don't have any right to interfere. 

But you would like to if you had that right, is that what I’m hearing?

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

But you would like to if you had that right, is that what I’m hearing?

 

10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Then you lack compassion, or at least understanding what terminal illness is all about. Any god who doesnt like it will just have to put up with the fact. Sometimes death is not the worst thing there is.

While I dont agree with the notion of suggestion selling death to someone to save money, I do think it is right and fair to let a person with terminal illness know their options. 

No I don't lack compassion.  I just am not deceived by the lies coming from the Devil on the subject.

I understand some people suffer pain with certain diseases.  But I also know there are powerful drugs they administer and have been for years for people suffering pain.  They also occasionally put people in a coma. 

Not everyone with health issues suffers a lot of pain.  Some people die relatively pain free.  People often die quickly when their heart stops.  When the heart fails, you are gone very quickly.  It is a lie and myth being spread around today that everyone will suffer huge pain when get an illness and so they should opt out by medical assistance in dying.  That is false.  But many people such as yourself are falling for it.

Some people will suffer pain.  Just how much is hard to know.  But they can be given powerful pain killers.  That should be what is done if necessary.  Make sure you talk to your care aids or doctor about that if that is what concerns you.

God has said "thou shalt not kill".  So that is the bottom line.  Trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and he will be with you and get you through.  It is far better to be ready to meet death with Jesus Christ than to go against him in such a serious matter.  Suffering is often part of this life.  But this life is short and it will be over before we know it.  Eternity is what matters and where one will spend eternity.  That's what counts.

[eyeball]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:21 AM, betsy said:

Whether it's legal or not, isn't the point.

A God-fearing Christian would know that it is offensive to God.  A God-fearing person will be obedient to God.

What is it you guys have against totalitarians again?

[OftenWrong]

26 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

No I don't lack compassion.  I just am not deceived by the lies coming from the Devil on the subject.

I understand some people suffer pain with certain diseases.  But I also know there are powerful drugs they administer and have been for years for people suffering pain.  They also occasionally put people in a coma. 

Not everyone with health issues suffers a lot of pain.  Some people die relatively pain free.  People often die quickly when their heart stops.  When the heart fails, you are gone very quickly.  It is a lie and myth being spread around today that everyone will suffer huge pain when get an illness and so they should opt out by medical assistance in dying.  That is false.  But many people such as yourself are falling for it.

Some people will suffer pain.  Just how much is hard to know.  But they can be given powerful pain killers.  That should be what is done if necessary.  Make sure you talk to your care aids or doctor about that if that is what concerns you.

God has said "thou shalt not kill".  So that is the bottom line.  Trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and he will be with you and get you through.  It is far better to be ready to meet death with Jesus Christ than to go against him in such a serious matter.  Suffering is often part of this life.  But this life is short and it will be over before we know it.  Eternity is what matters and where one will spend eternity.  That's what counts.

In my view you have no right to judge, or insist that another person should suffer the pain of a terminal illness to satisfy your personal religious beliefs. I have seen the devastation that cancer brings on people. In the final stages there is no miracle pain killer that works to the point they could have anything like a normal life. They are drugged to the point of unconsciousness. They and everyone around them know what is coming, with certainty.

The experience of prolonged slow agonizing and certain death is also devastating to their loved ones.

Allowing people to suffer a meaningless and agonizing death for the sake of religious idealism in a book doesn’t sound like mercy and compassion to me. It’s not like saying suffering improves character.

My Jesus spoke to god, questioned and challenged god about the rights of an individual. He would allow it and not be dogmatically attached to books.

 

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

In my view you have no right to judge, or insist that another person should suffer the pain of a terminal illness to satisfy your personal religious beliefs. I have seen the devastation that cancer brings on people. In the final stages there is no miracle pain killer that works to the point they could have anything like a normal life. They are drugged to the point of unconsciousness. They and everyone around them know what is coming, with certainty.

The experience of prolonged slow agonizing and certain death is also devastating to their loved ones.

Allowing people to suffer a meaningless and agonizing death for the sake of religious idealism in a book doesn’t sound like mercy and compassion to me. It’s not like saying suffering improves character.

My Jesus spoke to god, questioned and challenged god about the rights of an individual. He would allow it and not be dogmatically attached to books.

 

There are certain things that society has always regarded as sacred.  One is human life and the fact nobody has the right to kill another person.  This is clearly taught in the Holy Scripture of Holy Bible.  This is not just some "idealism in a book".  This is what determines the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.   This is what determined that the holocaust was a crime against humanity.  The sanctity of life is not based on just opinions or emotions or feelings of men.  It is something that God has communicated in his written revelation to man.  We might not understand it fully or the reasons why in the light of the existence of pain and suffering, but that is what God says in his revelation.  So I am not going to disagree or reject that.  I must accept it even though I don't understand everything in the Bible.  I understand one thing though;  when humans make their own rules that deviate from God's word, it becomes a slippery slope and humans think they are gods and can do anything.  I unequivocally reject that.