War In Ukraine

[Dougie93]

the military industrial complexes are certainly happy to see NATO divesting itself of aging tanks

as they will have to be replaced now

the first of the next generation NATO MBT's is already fielded as a prototype

the Rheinmetall KF51 Panther

mounting the RH130/L51 130mm/51 calibre smoothbore main armament 

 

just a primer on tank guns :

they are measured by diameter of the barrel : 120mm

and the length of the barrel by the length of the shells it fires : 44 calibre

so Leo2 has two gun versions for example

Leo2A4/A5 have the RH120/L44 120mm/44 calibre gun

Leo2A6/A7 have the RH120/L55 120mm/55 calibre gun

Abrams uses an American version of the German RH120/L44 designated the M256

the longer the gun, the higher the muzzle velocity, which increases effective range

the main Russian gun (T-64, T-72, T-80, T-90) is the Spetstekhnika Design Bureau 2A46M 125mm/48 calibre gun

same thing applies to artillery

so for example the M777A2L39 towed Howitzer is 155mm/39 calibre

while the PZH2000 SP Howitzer is 155mm/52 calibre

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dougie93

[Aristides]

17 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

training is the limiting factor

the Ukrainians are being given one or two squadrons of tanks at a time

because that's how many tank crews that are available to be trained at a time

they won't have the crews to operate 360 NATO tanks, that will take months

Good point. Sending them tanks before they could become operational would just make them stationary targets that can't shoot back.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Aristides

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Good point. Sending them tanks before they could become operational would just make them stationary targets that can't shoot back.

well, it's not just the four man crews

they need battlefield support troops as well

recovery, repair, maintenance, resupply

and all those troops have to be trained to work on the new tanks

so its going to take awhile to train up a NATO tank army in Ukraine

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

the military industrial complexes are certainly happy to see NATO divesting itself of aging tanks

as they will have to be replaced now

the first of the next generation NATO MBT's is already fielded as a prototype

the Rheinmetall KF51 Panther

mounting the RH130/L51 130mm/51 calibre smoothbore main armament 

 

just a primer on tank guns :

they are measured by diameter of the barrel : 120mm

and the length of the barrel by the length of the shells it fires : 44 calibre

so Leo2 has two gun versions for example

Leo2A4/A5 have the RH120/L44 120mm/44 calibre gun

Leo2A6/A7 have the RH120/L55 120mm/55 calibre gun

Abrams uses an American version of the German RH120/L44 designated the M256

the longer the gun, the higher the muzzle velocity, which increases effective range

the main Russian gun (T-64, T-72, T-80, T-90) is the Spetstekhnika Design Bureau 2A46M 125mm/48 calibre gun

same thing applies to artillery

so for example the M777A2L39 towed Howitzer is 155mm/39 calibre

while the PZH2000 SP Howitzer is 155mm/52 calibre

I like tanks.  I like reading about tanks.  I have never been in one. 

From what I've read so far, the Panther is going to use the Leo 2 chassis and the main difference will be a more modern turret/targeting and larger cannon, so it's not going to be a particularly large leap in evolution.  Yes? No?  

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I like tanks.  I like reading about tanks.  I have never been in one. 

From what I've read so far, the Panther is going to use the Leo 2 chassis and the main difference will be a more modern turret/targeting and larger cannon, so it's not going to be a particularly large leap in evolution.  Yes? No?  

 

there is no actual reason for a revolutionary change to the tank

a revolutionary change would be replacing the tank with something else

but the tank is simply mobile heavy armoured direct firepower

you have to have it to advance and take ground from a mechanized enemy

and it still does that job very well

the turret of the KF51 is quite different from the Leopard mind you

they have gone to an auto loader replacing the loader

the loader position is replaced by another seated crewman

that can be a commander running a battle management system for the troop, squadron, or regiment

or another specialist operator, such as someone to control drones to work with the tank

+ the KF51 adds missile launchers to the turret

which could load four missiles, like Javelin, or loitering munition kamikaze drones like Switchblade

Edited January 27, 2023 by Dougie93

[Moonbox]

From my layman's understanding, I think it's good that they are keeping a 4-person crew.  Managing the workload with just three people is challenging/stressful, based on hat I've been told.  

[Dougie93]

28 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

  I have never been in one.

thing is, being in an Armoured Regiment is basically like being in a logistics trade

in the infantry, you spend most of your time running around in the woods doing infantry shit

but in an Armoured Regiment, you spend most of your time in the shop working on the tank

the amount of time they get to actually bomb around in the tank shooting things up, is disappointingly limited

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

From my layman's understanding, I think it's good that they are keeping a 4-person crew.  Managing the workload with just three people is challenging/stressful, based on hat I've been told.  

yeah, that's a big difference between the Infantry and the Armour

the Infantry is a team of rivals, we are always scrapping with each other, everybody is agressive

while tank crews have to get along, so they are much more laid back, having to live cramped up with each other

[Moonbox]

It would still be wild.  I looked into signing up as an armor officer years ago.  At the time, I think there was a lot of uncertainty about what track you would end up getting placed in, so I stuck with my boring bank job out of uni.  

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It would still be wild.  I looked into signing up as an armor officer years ago.  At the time, I think there was a lot of uncertainty about what track you would end up getting placed in, so I stuck with my boring bank job out of uni.  

indeed, if you're going to go Armour, it's better to be the officer

otherwise you are just a grease monkey who serves the machine

really only the officer knows what is going on and gets to employ tactics

but you don't want to go Canadian Army, they barely have any tanks

if you want to be a tank officer actually getting to do anything, you'd have to go US Army

Russia is an Artillery Army

Canada is an Infantry Army

America is the Calvary Army

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

30 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

 so I stuck with my boring bank job

war is boring

most of the time in the military is "hurry up & wait"

the joy of being a soldier is the comradery

suffering hardship gladly, with brothers who become closer to you than anyone but your wife

in any situation, no matter how dreary, you make your own fun

smoking & joking at the back of the bus with the boys

ducimus

[Dougie93]

definitely do subscribe tho, to this "the tank is obsolete" nonsense

mobile protected firepower never goes out of style

the end of the tank would mean the end of mechanized warfare itself

and that is nowhere on the horizon, Starship Troopers are many decades from coming to pass

just on the expense alone

it's not about what is possible

it's about what is affordable & efficient within the context of industrial production wars

here's another of the next generation NATO tanks

the Franco-German-Italian Enhanced Main Battle Tank

[Goddess]

What do you think the Russians will think when they see all those tanks?

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

What do you think the Russians will think when they see all those tanks?

RUN AWAY!

[athos]

 

Australian open celebrates Russian victory.

Djokovic senior: "Long live Russia"

 

 

[August1991]

This civil/internal war among Slavs is a complete disaster for the West.

It is not our problem.

======

Like in 1912 or so, so-called elites in the civilised world are about to destroy life for the rest of us. 

 

[Aristides]

Appeasement led to WW2.

[athos]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

This civil/internal war among Slavs is a complete disaster for the West.

It is not our problem.

======

Like in 1912 or so, so-called elites in the civilised world are about to destroy life for the rest of us. 

Still, it's nice when Ukrainians and Russians die in your war for your interests. isn't it.

But there is a karma proverb: "What ever you do comes back to you"

?

Edited January 27, 2023 by athos

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, Goddess said:

What do you think the Russians will think when they see all those tanks?

it's not enough tanks to win the war

the situation is a World War One style stalemate in the trenches on a front across hundreds of miles

neither side has the mass to breakout and defeat the other

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, Goddess said:

What do you think the Russians will think when they see all those tanks?

They'll just bomb them.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

How is that make you feel? That your idol, Putin, the Neanderthal Putin with the coat robber neo-nazi thug with no military service from Wagner will atempt to bomb NATO equipment?

I hope the ladies will forgive me but I am not someone that cares about his image, so i want to talk with @Nationalistgutter talk.

Do you get an arousal when you know ilk like Putin will attempt to stop NATO equipment to enter so Ukraine can defend an invader?

If it was your house, you would welcome help to push someone out.

Nationalist - Athos - Redacted

The triple team. ?

What the hell is wrong with you?

Of course they'll bomb the tanks. Just as soon as they cross the boarder to Ukraine, or are parked for training and maintenance. Its what any military would do, if they had the equipment to do so.

Try stop being such a sopping wet dweeb and put your pants on.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Nationalist

[Aristides]

8 hours ago, athos said:

Still, it's nice when Ukrainians and Russians die in your war for your interests. isn't it.

But there is a karma proverb: "What ever you do comes back to you"

?

Don't invade your neighbours comrade. 

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

the reason I ask you is because there is a comment of yours which is popular around here.

Something about Ukraine losing the war, Russia winning and NATO watching? Those are your words. This is why i confuse you sometimes with the tovarisch.

but if you say your statement was based just on realism and military strategy, not your own desire then you know best.

Unbelievable...

Here's a tissue...

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

They'll just bomb them.

 

The reason Ukraine wants western tanks is because they are running out of ammunition for their Soviet era tanks and can't replace it.

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

Unbelievable...

Here's a tissue...

Ya, that statement was unbelievable alright and very revealing.