Democratic renewal

Army Guy · February 22, 2022

43 minutes ago, Boges said:

Sounds like the Right are onboard with Proportional Representation now.

What a weird world.

Only when they lose, and it is to their benefit do they want it, like the liberals they were going to change it as at the time it was in their favor, now the cons want it for the same reason, they had more votes than the liberals but lost the election, once the cons get in when ever that is, they to will not be changing the system.

Boges · February 22, 2022

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Only when they lose, and it is to their benefit do they want it, like the liberals they were going to change it as at the time it was in their favor, now the cons want it for the same reason, they had more votes than the liberals but lost the election, once the cons get in when ever that is, they to will not be changing the system.

Only FPTP can produce a Conservative Majority. Win enough seats by narrow margins, you can obtain a majority with only 1/3rd the population's support.

Michael Hardner · February 22, 2022

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

1. It is not incorrect. I've seen you do it a lot recently.

2. Frantically search to find someone's comments on a similar topic and throw them in their face, without supplying the context and flavour of the preceding (often years ago) discussion.

1. I don't think so. Point it out and I will comment. I will say that if people make a statement, and I point out that they are in error, then they double down and I explain again why they are wrong, then they move on with a different tack on the same point.... yeah I don't think that's a very nice way to discuss things.

2. Yeah, because I expect people to be principled. IF the answer is "I used to think protesters were LOSERS and now I have changed my mind" then kudos to you. I may cock an eyebrow if you revert to your old principles the next time a pipeline is protested. Do you see now ?

I try to be principled myself, which is why I am open to discussion up until the point I sense someone is being dishonest/egotistical in their chats.

Dougie93 · February 22, 2022

David Sacks: Trudeau creates a caste of economic untouchables in Canada

Emergencies Act brings deplatforming to the banks

Author of the article:

David Sacks, Special to National Post

Publishing date:

Feb 22, 2022 • 17 minutes ago • 8 minute read •

526 Comments

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responds to a question during a news conference, Monday, February 21, 2022 in Ottawa. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Adrian Wyld

This article originally appeared in Common Sense, a newsletter curated by Bari Weiss. It is republished here with permission.

Last summer, I warned readers of Common Sense that financial deplatforming would be the next wave of online censorship. Big Tech companies like PayPal were already working with left-wing groups like the ADL and SPLC to define lists of individuals and groups who should be denied service. As more and more similarly minded tech companies followed suit (as happened with social media censorship), these deplorables would be deplatformed, debanked, and eventually denied access to the modern economy altogether, as punishment for their unacceptable views.

That prediction has become reality.

What I could not have anticipated is that it would occur first in our mild-mannered neighbour to the north, with the Canadian government itself directing the reprisals. It remains to be seen whether Canada will be a bellwether for the U.S. But anyone who cares about the future of America as a place where citizens are free to protest their government needs to understand what has just occurred and work to stop it from taking root here.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/david-sacks-trudeau-creates-a-caste-of-economic-untouchables-in-canada

Edited February 22, 2022 by Dougie93

Goddess · February 22, 2022

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I try to be principled myself,

LOL

OK.

Michael Hardner · February 22, 2022

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

LOL

OK.

You know - I *have* asked you for examples where you think I'm wrong, or I guess LYING if you think that little of me.

My sense of you is you have an ingrained suspicion of authority but don't know how to articulate it all the time, which is why I don't press each and every little thing with you...

Zeitgeist · February 22, 2022

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You know - I *have* asked you for examples where you think I'm wrong, or I guess LYING if you think that little of me.

My sense of you is you have an ingrained suspicion of authority but don't know how to articulate it all the time, which is why I don't press each and every little thing with you...

MH, I have my issues with your arguments sometimes, okay a lot of the time, but I think you do try to be fair. Not easy.

Michael Hardner · February 22, 2022

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

MH, I have my issues with your arguments sometimes, okay a lot of the time, but I think you do try to be fair. Not easy.

Well thanks....

I honestly do learn a lot from people on here so I am humbled.

myata · February 23, 2022

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I agree with you.

You didn't understand and your agreement is shallow. No abuse, including unnecessary and unwarranted application of power is allowed in a working, functional democracy. There's no grades, this is OK but that too much already.

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yeah, but Canadians don't agree with you.

That means nothing. Germans agreed with Hitler and cambodians with Khmer Rouge etc yada. But even apart from these facts that just it's not true. Canadians weren't asked and did not say that they support these abuses. So after centuries of so called democracy" we have no way of knowing that. Good job. And it means that no, you can't appoint yourself to speak on behalf of "Canadians" anymore than your beloved leader.

Edited February 23, 2022 by myata

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

6 hours ago, myata said:

1. No abuse, including unnecessary and unwarranted application of power is allowed in a working, functional democracy. There's no grades, this is OK but that too much already.

2. That means nothing.

3. Germans agreed with Hitler and cambodians with Khmer Rouge etc yada.

4. But even apart from these facts that just it's not true. Canadians weren't asked and did not say that they support these abuses.

5. You can't appoint yourself to speak on behalf of "Canadians" anymore than your beloved leader.

1. Do you realize how you modify your words with adjectives - which are subjective by definition ? "Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder. "Unwarranted" is in the eye of the beholder.

A functioning democracy works hand-in-hand with a functioning economy. Blockading trade for 7 days without a point is not an exercise in democracy. "I am angry" is not a point. "I want all jurisdictions to reverse their policies" is not realistic or attainable. "I want to change policy that most Canadians support" is not a fair objective for a few hundred people.

Some of your complaints about our economic system are more than reasonable, but when you use the same language to describe everything then it waters down your message.

2. It means NOTHING that Canadians agree with the policy ? I wrote that in response to YOUR point "a failure of the society in one of its primary in a democracy responsibilities to hold governments to account, at all times, always without conditions and exceptions."

So then WHO is government held to account to ? You ? They are being held to the will of the people, which is the final authority that gives the government its power. There is no grand ethical failing that the Canadian people have succumbed to here, that the government will need to explain to future generations.

3. OMG. Here comes Hitler again. You can't say "GOVERNMENT MUST BE ACCOUNTABLE" then when we say "they are doing what the people want" bring Hitler out. Furthermore, they are following Public Health consultations, as evidenced by our relatively good performance on a comparison with other countries.

4. There's no need for a referendum on such things. Polling in January showed that Canadians, the supermajority of which had been vaccinated, were on board with the approach.

5. With a minority of people agreeing with you, and governments and public health officials in all jurisdictions using mandates to control the disease ... I come to the conclusion that this applies to you, yourself. I'm reporting back the facts here... you only have adjectives that actually describe how you feel about all of this.

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

It's ironic that in a thread called 'Democratic Renewal' the instigator of the thread admonishes government for listening to what people want. I am at a loss.

Democracy works in balance - there are institutions, parties, the courts and jurisdictions that contradict each other and the resulting conflicts drive 'best of breed' decisions.

It fails to work when the mechanics of the discussion machine fail. For example, the discussion is led by people who are not representative of the public, good ideas are censored, there is lack of attention or interest in the discussion, or it is driven for entertainment reasons.

myata · February 23, 2022

31 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder. "Unwarranted" is in the eye of the beholder.

It's in the eye of independent checks and controls over the governments created and operated by active and conscious citizens. Because they don't exist and never existed here it's so hard to get, for some.

First the governments muzzled citizens for no reason, just to show that they're doing something after many pathetic failures (yes there are places that never had these mandates). Then pumped them with propaganda of fear and hatred, for months non stop ("what should we do to them?"). Then innocently, do you support our measures, by any chance?

Sure it walks and quacks like Hitler and if you fail to see that, it has to be a problem with your eyes, or that thing they are connected to or should be, because this is only bare reality.

myata · February 23, 2022

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Democracy works in balance - there are institutions, parties, the courts and jurisdictions that contradict each other and the resulting conflicts drive 'best of breed' decisions.

Wrong again. There are entrenched organizations, exactly two of them, red or blue, nothing else allowed, with unknown agenda run dictatorially by unelected and unaccountable offices. There's no truly independent institutions please don't mention lap expensive restaurant functionaries, commissioners etc as such. Then as we found out there's no free media. And the judiciary nowhere to be found when governments decide to go off the rails, whatever its real quality that nobody has measured objectively.

Here, the reality. The dream was so pretty and snug. And you like it so much that you'll only wake up when the train calls in the third world. And that is fine too because importantly, this is also a choice. Nobody made you but you liked it and so.

And the 'the best of' can only be a joke of course. Check the pictures and articles in the international media (not only CBC). Or a lie. One of the two options, for you.

Edited February 23, 2022 by myata

myata · February 23, 2022

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

jurisdictions that contradict each other

Six provinces (6) opposed invocation of the Emergencies Act. Smiling beavers dancing in a perfect consensus. You are: a) joking; b) l-ing; or c) smoking something potent. Maybe all of the above.

Zeitgeist · February 23, 2022

It’s so sad that this should be a time of everyone coming together and celebrating the return to life without mandates and restrictions, as most western democracies are doing, but instead our government is removing freedoms and protections and abusing power to remove political opposition. It’s shocking. Biden’s silence is also shocking. Beri Weis, Great bless you for protecting justice when so few are speaking out. You’re a great person.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

55 minutes ago, myata said:

1. It's in the eye of independent checks and controls over the governments created and operated by active and conscious citizens. Because they don't exist and never existed here it's so hard to get, for some.

2. First the governments muzzled citizens for no reason, j

3. Then pumped them with propaganda of fear and hatred, for months non stop ("what should we do to them?"). Then innocently, do you support our measures, by any chance?

4. Sure it walks and quacks like Hitler and if you fail to see that, it has to be a problem with your eyes, or that thing they are connected to or should be, because this is only bare reality.

1. Who exactly ? What exactly ? Oh... 'THEY DON'T EXIST'. So our democracy has been deficient since its inception and yet you are asking for accountability when there is no structure is set up as a baseline for accountability.

2. I don't know who was muzzled - I hear lots of anti-mandate things, both on mainstream media and even false information is spread on social media.

3. Hated - that's hyperbole, and guesswork on your part.

4. I am always looking at my own views, my own subjectivity - but you are just wrong in this case. To call it 'reality' on top of the extreme statements ('checks and controls' 'never existed') that most would turn off your comments...

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

33 minutes ago, myata said:

Six provinces (6) opposed invocation of the Emergencies Act.

I was referring to the jurisdictions the protesters were against when the Convoy started. It wasn't Federal in many cases.

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Our government is removing freedoms and protections and abusing power to remove political opposition.
2. It’s shocking.

1. No - we are starting to roll restrictions back now as expected.
2. No - the G20 protests were far more 'shocking' if you are shocked by power asserting itself. I'm not.

If the protests:

1. Had been 'quiet' and not so horny
2. Had clear goals, even to protest without end and to 'raise awareness'
3. Had NOT been associated with blockades and radical elements

Then I am convinced no action would have been taken and the public would be behind them as much as you would expect.

Zeitgeist · February 23, 2022

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No - we are starting to roll restrictions back now as expected.
2. No - the G20 protests were far more 'shocking' if you are shocked by power asserting itself. I'm not.

If the protests:

1. Had been 'quiet' and not so horny
2. Had clear goals, even to protest without end and to 'raise awareness'
3. Had NOT been associated with blockades and radical elements

Then I am convinced no action would have been taken and the public would be behind them as much as you would expect.

No way. The impacts for the unvaccinated are severe. The protesters are also suffering. The mandates and Emergencies Act are unwarranted. This is really scary.

Dougie93 · February 23, 2022

33 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s so sad that this should be a time of everyone coming together and celebrating the return to life without mandates and restrictions, as most western democracies are doing, but instead our government is removing freedoms and protections and abusing power to remove political opposition. It’s shocking. Biden’s silence is also shocking. Beri Weis, Great bless you for protecting justice when so few are speaking out. You’re a great person.

this is where the Vimy myth becomes reality

prepare for the forlorn hope

prepare to go over the top when the whistle blows

live free or die

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

No way. The impacts for the unvaccinated are severe. The protesters are also suffering. The mandates and Emergencies Act are unwarranted. This is really scary.

Which part of this is 'no way' ? Ontario rolls mandates back March 1 and is dropping the vaccine passport.

The protesters are protesting against Omicron restrictions as they are easing.

I gave the 3 reasons why the EA could be warranted.

'Really Scary' was the G20 response. Citizens walking their dog were detained without reason by police.

Do you remember that ? If not, then why not ?

Nationalist · February 23, 2022

Is our system of government on a downward spiral? Yes, it is.

Is it the system at fault? No, It isn't. So what's the problem? Humans.

The "system" does have faults. But its humans who exploit those faults that corrupts the "system". For instance, the Emergencies Act invocation by Pixie-Dust.

Quote

National emergency

3 For the purposes of this Act, a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that

(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or

(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada

and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/page-1.html#h-213805

Point 1: The provinces have been able to deal with the protests. Even in Windsor. What was left was a protest in downtown Ottawa that blocked up streets. Were lives in danger? No. Peoples' health? No.

Point 2: Did the truckers' protest in Ottawa threaten the sovereignty of Canada? Most certainly not. National security? Nope. Territorial integrity? Again...nope.

The invocation of the Emergencies Act is thus...completely abusive of the purpose it was created. An abuse of our "system"...by humans who want to punish folks who disagree with the direction of the government, with respect to the mandates and regulations surrounding The Rona.

This is just one example but, I think you get the idea. Its not the "system" that's flawed...its the humans who warp and abuse it.

Zeitgeist · February 23, 2022

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Which part of this is 'no way' ? Ontario rolls mandates back March 1 and is dropping the vaccine passport.

The protesters are protesting against Omicron restrictions as they are easing.

I gave the 3 reasons why the EA could be warranted.

'Really Scary' was the G20 response. Citizens walking their dog were detained without reason by police.

Do you remember that ? If not, then why not ?

I remember all of that and the vaccine mandates and passports continue to persecute the unvaccinated. It’s the creation of an untouchable caste. It’s the potential for misuse and the start of a social credit system. Do these government-mandated things to earn freedoms that are supposed to apply to everyone as all citizens are supposed to have the rights and freedoms in our Charter. No Emergency Measures at G20. What’s happening now is frightening for all Canadians and those who have experienced oppression see it.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

Nexii · February 23, 2022

The bar for the Emergencies Act is too low. Should be 3/4 of Parliament and 9/10 of provinces or so. Passing such a powerful legislation should require more than a bare majority.

Michael Hardner · February 23, 2022

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. I remember all of that and the vaccine mandates and passports continue to persecute the unvaccinated.

It’s the creation of an untouchable caste. It’s the potential for misuse and the start of a social credit system.

2. Do these government-mandated things to earn freedoms that are supposed to apply to everyone as all citizens are supposed to have the rights and freedoms in our Charter.

3. No Emergency Measures at G20. What’s happening now is frightening for all Canadians and those who have experienced oppression see it.

1. It's been around for awhile now and it's being unwound righth ?

2. No - not all citizens and not all freedoms. Your freedoms are curtailed regularly otherwise the country could not function.

3. Even worse. They arrested people without proper legislative authority. Why do you think that wasn't worse than this ?