Democratic renewal

[West]

Just now, Goddess said:

I wonder when views like the right to medical bodily autonomy and the other rights and the upholding of the Charter and the Constitution became "extremist" views.

When it gets in the way of leftist money and power.

[Moonbox]

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well not exactly.  We have constitutional protections that must not be violated.  

Okay, but they haven't been, at least not until the Emergencies Act.  On this I'm a little suspect but it hasn't even gone through the Senate yet.  I do not believe it was necessary, that it's still necessary or that it was reasonably justified. 

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We mustn’t pretend that science is always conclusive or that there’s always a single consensus on scientific perspective.

You can only have one consensus.  If there's more than one "consensus" then you don't really have a consensus.  While it's perfectly reasonable to critique and ask questions about that consensus, outright denying it based on your feelings or individual perspective has always been foolish.  The strongest arguments the anti-vaxxers made were ones about their discomfort with a new vaccine.  That much is fair and reasonable, superstitious and misguided as it may have been. The dredging of social media and conspiracy websites for "proof" for their fears, however, and their trumpeting this garbage around as ironclad proof is what leads to all the eye-rolling.  

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I wonder when views like the right to medical bodily autonomy and the other rights and the upholding of the Charter and the Constitution became "extremist" views.

I don't think they are.  Do you ?

[Moonbox]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I wonder when views like the right to medical bodily autonomy and the other rights and the upholding of the Charter and the Constitution became "extremist" views.

You have medical bodily autonomy.  Do you have the vaccine yet?  Were you tied down and forced to take it?  

Can you explain how the Charter and/or Constitution have been violated?  You've been asked more times than I can count, but you're obviously unable to.  

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

You have medical bodily autonomy.  Do you have the vaccine yet?  Were you tied down and forced to take it?  

Can you explain how the Charter and/or Constitution have been violated?  You've been asked more times than I can count, but you're obviously unable to.  

I've replied more times than I can count.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You have medical bodily autonomy.  

No - because a restaurant might ask her to wear a mask or not come in even...

 

[myata]

40 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Without Nazi ideology they aren't Nazis.

You can play word games all you like but the problem is, they won't save you from the reality. Since Nazis happened: cultural revolution, genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, totalitarian regimes in Russia, Venezuela, Belorussia, Nikaragua and many more. The cause is always the same: authority that cannot be limited and controlled by the society. Now prove that a form of it, not necessarily brutal and physical, though we have already seen that too cannot happen here.

Edited February 22, 2022 by myata

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No - because a restaurant might ask her to wear a mask or not come in even...

 

No. The difference between you and I is that I view "take this jab or lose your job" to be coercion and blackmail and thus - forced on people against their will and thus against their constitutional right to bodily autonomy. (I won't even get into the right to informed consent when it comes to medical matters).

You do not believe that forcing a medical therapy on someone by threatening their career is violating their rights to bodily autonomy.

In 2016, a large number of indigenous women sued the Saskatchewan government because they were "forced" to get sterilized under the threat of not being reunited with their newborns. Doctors (the medical establishment) went along with this by performing the sterilizations and it was all done "for the greater good".  One of the reasons given for "the greater good" was because indigenous made up bigX% of the prison population, but only smallx% of the population. ( I can't remember the exact percentages any more).

I dont' know about you but I feel that was wrong - wrong on the part of the government and wrong on the part of the doctors who went along with it, wrong on the part of the public who cheered while these women lost their rights because the government and the medical profession told the public it was "for the greater good."

I feel the same thing about the jabs.

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Since Nazis happened: cultural revolution, genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, totalitarian regimes in Russia, Venezuela, Belorussia, Nikaragua and many more.

2. The cause is always the same: authority that cannot be limited and controlled by the society. Now prove that a form of it, not necessarily brutal and physical, though we have already seen that too cannot happen here.

1. Some of these examples are accurate, others not as much.  Race hatred was behind a couple of the genocides.  Some of the governments you are talking about were elected.  But ok.
2. I am not going to say it 'cannot happen here'.  But a protest that you happen to agree with was shut down after being given MUCH LEEWAY, probably too much.  The fact that you have no interest to the others that were less impactful that were shut down, sometimes with more brutality and more arbitrary reasoning tells me that you do not have a wide view of history, even recent history.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I feel the same thing about the jabs.

Right, it's nothing new here. New is only that even trying so very hard, we can no longer pretend that nothing unusual is happening.

[Boges]

Sounds like the Right are onboard with Proportional Representation now. 

What a weird world. 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Sounds like the Right are onboard with Proportional Representation now. 

What a weird world. 

Only for a minute though.

[myata]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

But a protest that you happen to agree with was shut down after being given MUCH LEEWAY, probably too much.

How hard is it to understand? There's no excuses, nor justifications for abuse of power and overreach by the authority? Every single event and example minor or gross and egregious like this latest one is wrong. And also, a failure of the society in one of its primary in a democracy responsibilities to hold governments to account, at all times, always without conditions and exceptions.

[Moonbox]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No - because a restaurant might ask her to wear a mask or not come in even...

Oh gosh that sounds horrible.  Blessed Constitertion save her.  

[myata]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

What a weird world. 

To an entitled caste that was planning and fully expecting to rule forever. Things have been working so nicely for it.

Edited February 22, 2022 by myata

[Boges]

Just now, myata said:

To an entitled caste that was planning and fully expecting to rule forever. Things were working so nicely for it.

Even the PCs in Alberta eventually lost. The NDP to boot. Political winds are always changing. 

Doug Ford is set to received a second mandate after 15 years of Liberal rule. 

[myata]

Political system in this country is a dead impasse, a joke of a parody. I can't care for a broken dime which of the heads gets to sit in the chair and rule as a minor king.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

1. No. The difference between you and I is that I view "take this jab or lose your job" to be coercion and blackmail and thus - forced on people against their will and thus against their constitutional right to bodily autonomy.

2. You do not believe that forcing a medical therapy on someone by threatening their career is violating their rights to bodily autonomy.

3. In 2016, a large number of indigenous women sued the Saskatchewan government because they were "forced" to get sterilized under the threat of not being reunited with their newborns.
 

1. I am not always in favour of an employer taking this approach but the fact is that employers have some say over how you conduct yourself.  And the fact that the Provinces have more control than the Federal Government, in terms of domain of labour law tells me you do not have a wide view of the problem.
2. That is correct.  You can be fired for how you talk, how you look at people, and even the colour of your skin.  So refusing to be vaxxed or wear a face covering is in bounds AFAIK.
3. Not a valid analogy sorry.  The situations are too different to compare.  Of course I think that's horrifying.

Sterilization though seems to be a topic many are willing to discuss.  We have had right wing posters here on this forum propose sterilization for people on welfare.  And indeed sterilization as a topic seems to be discussed casually on here by you and Zeitgeist and others

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

1. There's no excuses, nor justifications for abuse of power and overreach by the authority?
2. Every single event and example minor or gross and egregious like this latest one is wrong.
3. And also, a failure of the society in one of its primary in a democracy responsibilities to hold governments to account, at all times, always without conditions and exceptions.

1.  I agree with you.  This wasn't an abuse of power, though, if you compare to past demonstrations of state power.
2. TBH I think it was a little close to the line to invoke Emergency Measures, just not worthy of the hyperbolic shrieking that I am reading.  There were weapons seized just as the act came in, there was unstable leadership of the protesters, as well as large economic impacts and unnecessary impacts to everyday citizens.
3. Yeah, but Canadians don't agree with you.  You keep missing that.

[Zeitgeist]

25 minutes ago, Goddess said:

No. The difference between you and I is that I view "take this jab or lose your job" to be coercion and blackmail and thus - forced on people against their will and thus against their constitutional right to bodily autonomy. (I won't even get into the right to informed consent when it comes to medical matters).

You do not believe that forcing a medical therapy on someone by threatening their career is violating their rights to bodily autonomy.

In 2016, a large number of indigenous women sued the Saskatchewan government because they were "forced" to get sterilized under the threat of not being reunited with their newborns. Doctors (the medical establishment) went along with this by performing the sterilizations and it was all done "for the greater good".  One of the reasons given for "the greater good" was because indigenous made up bigX% of the prison population, but only smallx% of the population. ( I can't remember the exact percentages any more).

I dont' know about you but I feel that was wrong - wrong on the part of the government and wrong on the part of the doctors who went along with it, wrong on the part of the public who cheered while these women lost their rights because the government and the medical profession told the public it was "for the greater good."

I feel the same thing about the jabs.

 

 

Yes, sterilization is right alongside state-mandated euthanasia or forced abortion.  It’s evil.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Goddess]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And indeed sterilization as a topic seems to be discussed casually on here by you and Zeitgeist and others

I've seen you do this a lot.

Do you think that people should be allowed to change or refine their views on topics, based on new information or enhanced understanding or nuances of a topic that is similar but not exactly the same?

It seems like you stick to your views no matter what  new information comes to light - you just reject new information outright if it goes against your world-view.

And it seems that you are against others changing or refining their views as new information is presented.

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, sterilization is right alongside state-mandated euthanasia or forced abortion.  It’s evil.  

Thanks, MH sees no similarities to the 2 situations.

Forcing people to get a medical procedure by withholding something important to them until they agree, is wrong to me, no matter what the situation is.  It's made worse when the medical establishment (who should instinctively understand the right to medical bodily autonomy "First Do No Harm") goes along with government directives that violate that right and AT THE SAME TIME media promotes the violation by "facts" which are partially true, but mostly are an exaggeration of a supposed "emergency" in order to get the public on board.

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, sterilization is right alongside state-mandated euthanasia or forced abortion.  It’s evil.  

Glad you clarified...
 

 

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

1. Do you think that people should be allowed to change or refine their views on topics, based on new information or enhanced understanding or nuances of a topic that is similar but not exactly the same?

2. It seems like you stick to your views no matter what  new information comes to light - you just reject new information outright if it goes against your world-view.

3. And it seems that you are against others changing or refining their views as new information is presented.

1. Of course
2. No I definitely have changed my mind on things more since I came here, such as the Convoy.
3. That is incorrect

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. That is incorrect

It is not incorrect. I've seen you do it a lot recently.

Frantically search to find someone's comments on a similar topic and throw them in their face, without supplying the context and flavour of the preceding (often years ago) discussion.