Moonlight Graham Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: If a business (maybe a bank) didn’t want to lose workers due to an outbreak within their place of work, is your opinion just to say “too bad. You’re going to have to put up with shutting down your business when an outbreak happens”? Listen to yourself. An employer doesn't get to require their employees to undergo invasive medical procedures where they have medications injected into their bloodstream just so they might not miss work. What next, mandatory flu shot and daily vitamins? So yeah, my opinion is "too bad". We don't live in Stalinist Russia. You're clearly a Stalinist because they're the only type of lefties who defend the government and big banks over worker rights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said: I don't ever recall vaccines being a term of employment in sectors where it doesn't apply more than any other. But the federal government required all public servants to get jabbed even if they were working from home full time, and required truckers even though they mostly worked alone isolated in a truck cab all day. Oh well, I guess they figured it was enough of an emergency to warrant doing so. Sometimes it seems truckers are cast as being were like some hapless religious sector of the population singled out for special persecution - as I recall that they were already voluntarily 90% or better vaccinated even before the stupid convoy got started. Quote Tyrants. Seems there will always be an element of truth to that alright. Apparently we live under a responsible government not a representative democratic one, or so I've been told. Although it sucks COVID has provided some real insights into a number of important deficiencies on multiple often intertwined levels in our world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said: Listen to yourself. An employer doesn't get to require their employees to undergo invasive medical procedures where they have medications injected into their bloodstream just so they might not miss work. What next, mandatory flu shot and daily vitamins? So yeah, my opinion is "too bad". We don't live in Stalinist Russia. You're clearly a Stalinist because they're the only type of lefties who defend the government and big banks over worker rights. A jab isn’t an invasive medical procedure, and they actually can require vaccines. Court approved and everything; it is settled law in Canada. Plus, you have no problems for health workers needing mandatory vaccines…. so we both think mandatory vaccines are ok, we just draw our lines differently with respect to who should have to get them. So don’t pretend you’re the freedom guy and get outraged just because I think bank workers shouldn’t be able to infect each other the same as you do healthcare workers. Edited January 30 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 20 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said: Holding your livelihood as leverage isn't much of a choice. People need to eat and pay mortgages. Our PM has never had to worry about a paycheck in his life. Our PM didn't mandate vaccine vs. job for anyone but federal employees. Provinces didn't mandate vaccine vs jobs for anyone other than Provincial employees, and not even for all of them - that was left to individual ministries, at least in BC. Some, but not all, employers mandated vaccines to keep jobs. Blaming the PM for the decisions of every level of government and private businesses is misguided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 15 minutes ago, dialamah said: Our PM didn't mandate vaccine vs. job for anyone but federal employees. Provinces didn't mandate vaccine vs jobs for anyone other than Provincial employees, and not even for all of them - that was left to individual ministries, at least in BC. Some, but not all, employers mandated vaccines to keep jobs. Blaming the PM for the decisions of every level of government and private businesses is misguided. I never did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 31 minutes ago, Contrarian said: So what is the bottom line, the insurgency failed. and the anniversary only featured a few people in Ottawa? Pat King as @ExFlyer mentioned was not allowed. I guess is time to count it as a win for the status quo. The status quo won, and all is left are some forum rantings? So, the house won, populism lost, what else is new?! Saw on the news tonite that there were only a few dozen at the Trucker Protest Reunion. Truckers 2.0 was a huge bust LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 9 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Saw on the news tonite that there were only a few dozen at the Trucker Protest Reunion. Truckers 2.0 was a huge bust LOL The organizers probably realized there was no profit in it? What were the millions of dollars raised by the few organizers actually used for? I wonder where this money ended up… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said: This isn't a religious question, nobody has invoked religion. This is about ethics of body autonomy. It's a religious question, or a philosophical question. You take your pick. It makes little difference to me. 1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said: Judges don't make a fetus less human. Ending a human life is ending a human life. Your definition of what is or isn't considered human life is fortunately not held above our legal and health care systems. 🤷♂️ 1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said: People invoke "women should have control over their bodies" except when it comes to vaccines where many seem perfectly happy to deny their control over their own body and health decisions, including our prime minister and his government. People invoke "my body my choice" when it comes to vaccines, but then are perfectly happy to deny a women control over her own body when it comes to unwanted pregnancy. If you were arguing in favor of abortion rights AND against vaccine mandates, then at least you'd be consistent, but you're not, are you? The monumental false-equivalence you draw between the two is blinding, at any rate. Pushing folk to get a vaccine to protect themselves and their fellows during a health crisis is not even in the same realm as literally forcing women to bring their pregnancies to term, considering the health risks and impacts they're guaranteed to experience (not to mention the future obligations that come with it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: I'm vaccinated so this doesn't apply to me. But you have the right to allow or not allow anyone in your home for any reason you like. But not my business... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, eyeball said: Oh well, I guess they figured it was enough of an emergency to warrant doing so. Sometimes it seems truckers are cast as being were like some hapless religious sector of the population singled out for special persecution - as I recall that they were already voluntarily 90% or better vaccinated even before the stupid convoy got started. Seems there will always be an element of truth to that alright. Apparently we live under a responsible government not a representative democratic one, or so I've been told. Although it sucks COVID has provided some real insights into a number of important deficiencies on multiple often intertwined levels in our world. Dude, our gov't went full fascist back when we all had legitimate questions about vax safety and efficacy, now we're 85% vaxed, deaths are up, and the gov't is paying out millions of dollars to people who were injured by the vax. So tell me, Machiavellian one, did the end justify the means? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Our PM didn't mandate vaccine vs. job for anyone but federal employees. Oh, just them, hey? How many is that, just a couple hundred? https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-otoole-mandatory-vaccinations-protections-1.6166214 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, TreeBeard said: A jab isn’t an invasive medical procedure, in·va·sive (of medical procedures) involving the introduction of instruments or other objects into the body or body cavities: Can you un-jab yourself? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, dialamah said: Our PM didn't mandate vaccine vs. job for anyone but federal employees. You're trying to use the same closed-loop "logic" that is currently winding its way through the US courts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: It's a religious question, or a philosophical question. You take your pick. It makes little difference to me. There sure is a difference since one is based on logic and ethics and the other is based on superstition backed by zero evidence. 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Your definition of what is or isn't considered human life is fortunately not held above our legal and health care systems. 🤷♂️ Science says a fetus is a human life. The laws have decided its not legally "a person" with rights. 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: People invoke "my body my choice" when it comes to vaccines, but then are perfectly happy to deny a women control over her own body when it comes to unwanted pregnancy. People invoke "my body my choice" when it comes to abortions, but then are perfectly happy to deny a woman control over her own body when it comes to unwanted vaccines. The difference is that with a pregnancy there are 2 human bodies involved, and one is taking willful action to intentionally end the life of the other. My best guess as to why you and others support mandatory vaccines and abortion rights despite the inherent contradictions is because both benefit you and you don't care about the rights of minorities in these cases. 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: The monumental false-equivalence you draw between the two is blinding, at any rate. Pushing folk to get a vaccine to protect themselves and their fellows during a health crisis is not even in the same realm as literally forcing women to bring their pregnancies to term, considering the health risks and impacts they're guaranteed to experience (not to mention the future obligations that come with it). Its not an employers responsibility to make general medical procedure choices for an individual, especially if it has absolutely nothing to do with their job. It shouldn't even be in their rights to ask an employee about private medical questions like "what medical procedures have you had done". You're the one advocating the right for someone to be able to kill an unborn child and the right for employers to require medicine to be injected with a needle into someone's bloodstream that they don't want. The violence involved here that you're advocating is unfathomable. I'm the one who doesn't think unborn babies should be killed or people inserted with needles if they don't want it. Think about that for a sec. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: But not my business... Do you think you should have to fork over your medical records as a condition of employment? And if you haven't undergone a medical procedure they want you to undergo, that this should be a requirement? Even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the job? Even if you work inside an isolated truck cab alone all day? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: Dude, our gov't went full fascist back when we all had legitimate questions about vax safety and efficacy, now we're 85% vaxed, deaths are up, and the gov't is paying out millions of dollars to people who were injured by the vax. So tell me, Machiavellian one, did the end justify the means? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 Crazy part is if anyone wanted to access anyone's health information because, say, they suspected that individual gave them hiv or something they'd be required to apply to a court under various acts ie HIPA. Yet a 15 year old should be able to demand your vaccine status just to dawn the doors of a door of a restaurant... Makes no sense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 50 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said: There sure is a difference since one is based on logic and ethics and the other is based on superstition backed by zero evidence. Science says a fetus is a human life. The laws have decided its not legally "a person" with rights. People invoke "my body my choice" when it comes to abortions, but then are perfectly happy to deny a woman control over her own body when it comes to unwanted vaccines. The difference is that with a pregnancy there are 2 human bodies involved, and one is taking willful action to intentionally end the life of the other. My best guess as to why you and others support mandatory vaccines and abortion rights despite the inherent contradictions is because both benefit you and you don't care about the rights of minorities in these cases. Its not an employers responsibility to make general medical procedure choices for an individual, especially if it has absolutely nothing to do with their job. It shouldn't even be in their rights to ask an employee about private medical questions like "what medical procedures have you had done". You're the one advocating the right for someone to be able to kill an unborn child and the right for employers to require medicine to be injected with a needle into someone's bloodstream that they don't want. The violence involved here that you're advocating is unfathomable. I'm the one who doesn't think unborn babies should be killed or people inserted with needles if they don't want it. Think about that for a sec. Thank you. This here is spot on 👌 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 4 hours ago, dialamah said: Our PM didn't mandate vaccine vs. job for anyone but federal employees. Provinces didn't mandate vaccine vs jobs for anyone other than Provincial employees, and not even for all of them - that was left to individual ministries, at least in BC. Some, but not all, employers mandated vaccines to keep jobs. Blaming the PM for the decisions of every level of government and private businesses is misguided. But governments did strengthen legal protections for businesses who were willing to do their dirty work. Some non profits including churches even got bribes for setting up vaccine clinics and pushing the jabberino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: There sure is a difference since one is based on logic and ethics and the other is based on superstition backed by zero evidence. Philosophy is logic based, but only sometimes evidence based - dealing more often with the unanswerable. Whether or not a fetus is a human being with rights from the moment of conception onwards is one such question. 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Science says a fetus is a human life. The laws have decided its not legally "a person" with rights. No, that's not what "science says". That's what some scientists say, and then some scientists don't. 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: People invoke "my body my choice" when it comes to abortions, but then are perfectly happy to deny a woman control over her own body when it comes to unwanted vaccines. We are going in circles here. You're either pro-choice vaccines AND pro-choice abortion, or you're contradicting yourself. You decide. For me, I'd say the whole line of reasoning is junk. The circumstances, risks and implications not even remotely comparable. 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Its not an employers responsibility to make general medical procedure choices for an individual, especially if it has absolutely nothing to do with their job. It shouldn't even be in their rights to ask an employee about private medical questions like "what medical procedures have you had done". Usually you're right, but It's the employer's responsibility to ensure a safe workspace. During a public health crisis, that safety can certainly come into question and thus the Charter and the Law reasonably supports everything you're complaining about here. As I've mentioned before, the Courts have resoundingly rejected the overwhelming majority of arguments against this. 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: You're the one advocating the right for someone to be able to kill an unborn child I don't consider an early-stage fetus a child, or a life, so I'm fairly comfortable in my logic here. 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: and the right for employers to require medicine to be injected with a needle into someone's bloodstream that they don't want. In a dangerous pandemic environment? Yep! 2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: The violence involved here that you're advocating is unfathomable. I'm the one who doesn't think unborn babies should be killed or people inserted with needles if they don't want it. Think about that for a sec. The ignorance and hysterics you're promoting are boring, tedious and played out. I'm the one saying that women shouldn't be forced to risk their lives, bodies and futures for a baby they don't want to carry in their body. Freeeedom (except for abortions) right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 9 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Do you think you should have to fork over your medical records as a condition of employment? And if you haven't undergone a medical procedure they want you to undergo, that this should be a requirement? Even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the job? Even if you work inside an isolated truck cab alone all day? "Medical records" being proof of vaccination, sure. Not if you work in isolation, but I don't know why Canada and the US cared about cross border trucking. I assume that they wanted to lock down the border. But the question about employment domain has been answered here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 Tulsi sums up the anti-democratic nonsense underway in Canada quite well: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Tulsi sums up the anti-democratic nonsense underway in Canada quite well: LOL “Canada doesn’t have a 1st amendment. USA is the best country in the world because we have a first amendment”. Grade school level arguments being made in that video. That is what passes for “summing it up quite well” with you? You have very low standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: LOL “Canada doesn’t have a 1st amendment. USA is the best country in the world because we have a first amendment”. Grade school level arguments being made in that video. That is what passes for “summing it up quite well” with you? You have very low standards. Only Canadian leftists like you are in denial of what most Americans and freedom-loving people around the world have seen unfold in Canada in the last couple of years. It’s not too late for Canada to correct course, but I don’t see left-wing radicals like you changing your spots in this lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 6 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: LOL “Canada doesn’t have a 1st amendment. USA is the best country in the world because we have a first amendment”. Grade school level arguments being made in that video. That is what passes for “summing it up quite well” with you? You have very low standards. "Using protests to demand change to public policy is something I think is worrisome" -Justin Trudeau 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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