myata Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, Aristides said: So what do you suggest You do not have an honest, in good faith right to ask this question. Because you are not asking it honestly and in good faith. You (and I don't mean personalities, rather that perspective in public matters that is becoming increasingly prominent, or dominant) do not want and refuse to participate in an open discussion. You do not provide honest, impartial information as input to a meaningful discussion. You confuse, mislead and withhold important information. You pretend to know all answers and then give none, with any number of unlikely excuses. You cannot have an honest discussion while presuming the right to all knowledge and ultimate truth, to begin with and ultimately. This is no discussion there's another word for it: dictate; dictatorship. So stop pretending to be interested. Your only interest is only to prove to yourself again and again that the status quo is the only possibility. Your arguments are weak and pathetic and if they have flaws obvious to others, it's not their fault, guess whose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, eyeball said: I'm being very serious, what are you missing here? You don't understand the concepts Rousseau and Burke are talking about? Please explain what it has to do with my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, Winston said: Yes exactly this is the fundamental problem, we are reacting instead of proactively planning. In fact you brought up a great point a few weeks back about about not opening boarders. We need to be proactive in our planning. It is why the current program ( still unsure the goals or steps to pre covid life) is failing. Proactively planning for what? We were doing great and looking at the end of the tunnel until Omricon came along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accountability Now Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, eyeball said: Queenmandy said that, not me. He said “I it didn’t hurt”. I said tell that to the people that died. And you said “We did”. You said it didn’t hurt It didn’t hurt but it killed them. Both can’t be true. People that say the vaccines are 100% safe are despicable liars. Even if the safety is 99.99% Edited January 12, 2022 by Accountability Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 Yeesh, Omicron is everywhere on both sides of the Can-US border. The only difference is that on the other side people are living relatively normal free lives. We aren’t and our hospitalization rate isn’t substantively different. Quebec, and Canada to a slightly lesser degree, aren’t functioning as laissez-faire liberal democracies anymore. Why? Covid? Spare us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 The bottom line is that the Governments have to get everybody vaccinated. How do we accomplish that? Common sense would indicate everyone would want to get vaccinated. They have tried education, but some people refused. They tried incentives and there was some up take. But now there is a cohort of people who, inspite of the benifits to themselves and the benifits to the country, still refuse. What is the solution? How do we get the rest of the population to do the right thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, Winston said: No, what is the publics goal, not mine, because my goals don't matter to the rest of the country. Can we agree that the publics goal is to have a basic sense of pre covid life? For the first while I thought the goal (public and government) was "immunity". But if that were the case, the government would allow antibody testing to confirm natural immunity. I'm not 100% certain what their goal is now other than: make tons of money off the vaccines, no matter what.? Did anyone hear about this: 'Pandemic is over in La Crete,' lab firm CEO says after testing for antibodies in Alberta hamlet (yahoo.com) I suspect there are a lot more people with immunity walking around and that we are a lot closer to herd immunity than the government would like to admit, which is why they are completely against antibody testing and punish doctors for referring patients for the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Aristides said: Proactively planning for what? We were doing great and looking at the end of the tunnel until Omricon came along. Planning for Omricon, instead of assuming the virus would just magically disappear. If we were doing great, what were the steps towards pre covid life? What was the goal? We must first be able to agree that the system is failing to provide a path to pre covid life before recognition that other methods can be installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Goddess said: For the first while I thought the goal (public and government) was "immunity". I can not get an honest answer to the simple question, what are the steps, goals and end result the program intents to complete. If no one knows, shouldn't that be concerning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: The bottom line is that the Governments have to get everybody vaccinated. What is the end goal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, Aristides said: until Omricon came along. And this is either ignorance or l.. yet again. Real world cases and studies showing that protection against Covid from mRNA immune boosters wanes quickly were reported and published before Omicron. There was a spike of cases in September with vaccines and everything way before omicron. See, you just cannot have an open, honest and impartial discussion. And that is a big problem. How can you have a solution that others understand and agree with if you wouldn't have an open discussion? There's only one way. Guess or look, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Winston said: Please explain what it has to do with my question. Rousseau and Burke help provide the fundamental grounding individuals need for understanding their role and responsibility when participating in a rules-based society or 'the program' as I put it. I'm talking about a sub-routine (another program) underlying the program Aristides fleshed out for you. What is it that compels you to agree with everyone else that stopping at a red light is a good idea? Edited January 12, 2022 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) By the way, compare this: Covid toll in Romania (lowest boosting level in Europe) with this: Quebec. Noted those numbers, 42 versus 62? Now recall that population of Romania is 19 million+ (well over a double of Quebec's) and among poorest in Europe. No I'm not saying anything here. The reality may be though, if anyone still listening. And you want to push those boosters into everybody's arms whether they agree or not for years and decades (because Covid isn't going anywhere) and see what happens? Edited January 12, 2022 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 Quebec's Health tax on unvaccinated prompt fierce debate. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/quebec-health-tax-unvaccinated-residents-canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: The bottom line is that the Governments have to get everybody vaccinated. How do we accomplish that? Common sense would indicate everyone would want to get vaccinated. They have tried education, but some people refused. They tried incentives and there was some up take. But now there is a cohort of people who, inspite of the benifits to themselves and the benifits to the country, still refuse. What is the solution? How do we get the rest of the population to do the right thing? That’s not true. Vaccinating the small percentage of people who aren’t vaccinated isn’t going to reduce hospitalizations or deaths that much. We need to realize that our government won’t take action to remove restrictions and restore freedoms. If they won’t do it now, they won’t do it after pulling out all the stops to get another 5% of the population vaccinated, which is about all you’ll get short of using physical force or deprivations like imprisonment or starvation. Canada is becoming a stifling place. Bunch of baby ninnies who can’t handle an unavoidable risk. It’s embarrassing. Understand that freedom has value and life isn’t risk free or continue to live under absurd restrictions. Edited January 12, 2022 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: Rousseau and Burke help provide the fundamental grounding individuals need for understanding their role and responsibility when participating in a rules-based society or 'the program' as I put it. I'm talking about a sub-routine (another program) underlying the program Aristides fleshed out for you. My apologies, I see, your talking about social responsibility as a "program". I am talking about the systematic program/steps designed to provide a path to basic pre covid life, hence why I asked the steps, goals and end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Winston said: I am talking about the systematic program/steps designed to provide a path to basic pre covid life, hence why I asked the steps, goals and end. I'd say the same thing, that adhering to the basics is the first step - towards a forward looking path however. I really don't know how much I relish going back to the Before Times the way they were. The future lies in a different direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 5 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: The anti vaxxers are making a strong argument against freedom. When some one like me with an arts degree in history can tell a person with post graduate degrees in medicine and immunology and years of experience, how they are wrong and I am right because I read it on the internet, there comes a point when, if I am too stupid to follow their advice, I have shut up and do what I'm told. If you don't want to pay the tax, excersize your right to get the vaccine free of charge. It doesn't hurt, it is free, and it is safe. It is no big deal. A billion people have done the right thing with no issues. That’s how I feel about the fatty tax. Exercise your right to lose weight, or pay the tax baby! Fatty tax! Fatty tax! Fatty tax! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 47 minutes ago, Accountability Now said: He said “I it didn’t hurt”. I said tell that to the people that died. And you said “We did”. You said it didn’t hurt It didn’t hurt but it killed them. Both can’t be true. People that say the vaccines are 100% safe are despicable liars. Even if the safety is 99.99% Why should I feel any less about the exploitive politicization and ridiculous exaggeration of the difference between 99.99 and 100 to scare the gullible into being so fearful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 hours ago, BubberMiley said: A poll shows a majority of Canadians support a tax on the unvaxed. A majority of Canadians also supported the internment of Japanese-Canadians during WW2 (War Measures Act). So ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, eyeball said: between 99.99 and 100 to scare the gullible into being so fearful Did you mean vaccination rate by any chance? Because we are between 90% and 100% now and look what wonders it has brought us, complete with new/old restrictions, lockdowns and curfews! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 29 minutes ago, eyeball said: I'd say the same thing, that adhering to the basics is the first step - towards a forward looking path however. I really don't know how much I relish going back to the Before Times the way they were. The future lies in a different direction. We are talking about two different “programs” . I can agree with your premise based upon required demand by the greater societal benefit, given the societal benefit is moral and has an evidential basis. (beyond social responsibility) I am looking for actual steps, goals or end result that the individuals responsible have planned to attain pre COVID conditions. Obviously we may not know these plans, but since the steps appear to fail in providing a plan for pre COVID conditions, I question the objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, myata said: Did you mean vaccination rate by any chance? No, not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) Unless "the program" is a) clearly defined and explained b) reasonable c) agrees with factual evidence and incorporates collection of objective evidence for monitoring and evaluation of its success d) is open to critical questioning e) withstands reasonable critical questioning f) has mechanisms of feedback and correction that's for a minimum, it is not a social program, it has little or nothing to do with individual responsibility, social contract, common good etc any number of default cliches why you have to while they are not obliged but is an authoritarian dogma. And the only responsibility a conscious and responsible citizen has toward any authoritarian dogma is to expose it, bring it out in the open and demonstrate it for what it is, not what it pretends to be. Every failure and atrocity in the history was justified by some common good. Endless repetition will not uncover anything new here. Edited January 12, 2022 by myata 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 12, 2022 Report Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Winston said: Planning for Omricon, instead of assuming the virus would just magically disappear. If we were doing great, what were the steps towards pre covid life? What was the goal? We must first be able to agree that the system is failing to provide a path to pre covid life before recognition that other methods can be installed. How do you plan for the next variant when you don't know how infectious, vaccine resistant or severe it will be? What do you suggest to support our system that we aren't doing? It takes a minimum of 4 years to produce a nurse, doctors take much more and they are in demand everywhere in the world. What do you suggest? What magic wand do you think governments can wave to fix this tomorrow? Are you prepared to pay for a huge permanent expansion in health care just to handle once in a lifetime pandemics? Would you have been prepared to pay for it before we ever heard of Covid? Everyone is an expert when it comes to hindsight. Edited January 12, 2022 by Aristides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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