The push is on of the Omicron or Omnicon virus.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

A lot people getting mild illness at the same time isn't good for any society.

OK, thanks for admitting it - the problem is not with the people, but the system that cannot handle an influx of mild to moderate cases without going into a panic mode. That is the problem.

Of course it's been decades since a possibility of a pandemic has been discussed (SARS, MERS, H1N1 etc). Reports written, salaries and bonuses paid. Still it cannot do its direct job. Ok, I can see that. But still it does not give you or anyone the right to shoot anything into anyone at the first idea that it could do something for your system. I would be very scared, not of the virus but such a system it comes down to that (and by Boges, it's within fingertips right now).

I propose a different arrangement: if it cannot do its job, we can't and should not use it for the job it cannot do. Just common sense. So we keep your system only for serious and critical care that it does reasonably OK and have something else that can handle this scenario. Yes such systems exist performing critical actions in billions, daily, day after day after day just they aren't the same systems as those that were built in the times of Confederation.

It is not fair to not have a choice. People can opt for you with your syringe, for as long as they like to. Or they can go and get competent, professional insured care when they need it. A choice. That would solve the problem and there would be no place for you with your tender caring shot, in perpetuity. Not in the least because you cannot prove, and not even trying to, seriously, that it can provide a critical benefit to the society (not a bureaucratic system) without reasonable alternatives.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Shady said:

Ok, I thought you meant mandatory on a yearly basis.  So far hospitalizations are flat despite the spike in cases over the last couple of weeks.  Also, I’ve seen some virologists suggest that because of the nature of the contagiousness of the new variant, the normal 8 week peak and decline will be more like 4 weeks.  Cases will peak really fast.

I agree. 

We can double current ICU rate and still be fine. But the problem is when the trend goes up, you just can't reverse it on a dime. Cases are spiking exponentially right now, but once Omicron completely supplants Delta, hopefully we'll see a slowing there. 

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

OK, thanks for admitting it - the problem is not with the people, but the system that cannot handle an influx of mild to moderate cases without going into a panic mode. That is the problem.

Of course it's been decades since a possibility of a pandemic has been discussed (SARS, MERS, H1N1 etc). Reports written, salaries and bonuses paid. Still it cannot do its direct job. Ok, I can see that. But still it does not give you or anyone the right to shoot anything into anyone at the first idea that it could do something for your system. I would be very scared, not of the virus but such a system it comes down to that (and by Boges, it's within fingertips right now).

I propose a different arrangement: if it cannot do its job, we can't and should not use it for the job it cannot do. Just common sense. So we keep your system only for serious and critical care that it does reasonably OK and have something else that can handle this scenario. Yes such systems exist performing critical actions in billions, daily, day after day after day just they aren't the same systems as those that were built in the times of Confederation.

It is not fair to not have a choice. People can opt for you with your syringe, for as long as they like to. Or they can go and get competent, professional insured care when they need it. A choice. That would solve the problem and there would be no place for you with your tender caring shot, in perpetuity. Not in the least because you cannot prove, and not even trying to, seriously, that it can provide a critical benefit to the society (not a bureaucratic system) without reasonable alternatives.

It's not even "The System" as in Healthcare. 

School systems can't function if entire classes have to stay home because of one case. 

Work places will see reduced productivity if there's a spike in Omicron simply through absenteeism. 

We have to reach a comfort level that this type of virus won't cause large instances of severe illness. Early signs are promising, but who knows. We'll see by Christmas, I guess. 

[myata]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

We have to reach a comfort level that this type of virus won't cause

Sure wouldn't it be great to reach it; however in the meanwhile it does not give you the right to shoot whatever vaccine you like into whoever you like whenever you feel like it just because you think that it may do some good. Oops.

[Boges]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Sure wouldn't it be great to reach it; however in the meanwhile it does not give you the right to shoot whatever vaccine you like into whoever you like whenever you feel like it just because you think that it may do some good. Oops.

Again no one is being forced. Just ostracized as social pariahs. It's a good look on em. 

What's refreshing about Omicron is that the Anti-Vax crowd is being further marginalized. I'm here for it. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Boges

[myata]

9 minutes ago, Boges said:

Just ostracized as social pariahs. It's a good look on em

I've no slightest concerns with the opinion of a) brainwashed or b) idiots. I could see it as a badge of merit if only cared one tiny bit.

A society of brainwashed ran by idiots is entirely different story. It can be dangerous, and was.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, myata said:

I've no slightest concerns with the opinion of a) brainwashed or b) idiots. I could see it as a badge of merit if only cared one tiny bit.

I think many consider the same about people afraid of a vaccine. 

Brainwashed by criminal-level disinformation. 

[Accountability Now]

46 minutes ago, Boges said:

Again no one is being forced. Just ostracized as social pariahs. It's a good look on em. 

I have always laughed at the way you use the term 'forced'. Sure, no one is holding anyone down to get the jab but people are being coerced into doing something they really don't want to. People had the choice of losing their jobs, feeding their families, etc OR getting the jab. In many cases that is being forced. Of course you have no problem mocking those people because you have no problem sticking the needle in your arm. 

 

50 minutes ago, Boges said:

What's refreshing about Omicron is that the Anti-Vax crowd is being further marginalized. I'm hear for it. 

Actually they're not. People got behind the mandates because the case and hospital numbers supported it. The majority of the cases are among the vaxxed now, so that support will wane.  In fact the reason omicron is in Canada is from fully vaccinated people flying back home with it. If anything, Omicron has shed light on the holes your glorious vaccine has. I think the numbers in Ontario today had 60% of the cases being fully vaxxed and the answer....well those two shots you won't work but that third one is the magic ticket. Even if they are right, people are starting to see through the BS.

[OftenWrong]

It should be noted in between the fear mongering and cage rattling, all these mild infections among thousands should at least create some natural immunity.

That’s why, soon enough you will see people who want to go and get the viruse

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

I think the numbers in Ontario today had 60% of the cases being fully vaxxed and the answer....well those two shots you won't work but that third one is the magic ticket. Even if they are right, people are starting to see through the BS.

2 reasons for that. 

1) 80+% of the population is fully vaxxed. 

2) Unvaxxed aren't really allowed to congregate in large public settings. 

ICU occupancy is still overwhelmingly unvaxxed. 

Protection against "infection" does wane. No one has denied it does. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Boges

[myata]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

think many consider

So, cannot explain why it should be done but "ostracized as social pariahs" if you don't. Talk about the meaning of brainwashed. Shaman, drum and the fire?

Edited December 16, 2021 by myata

[Boges]

15 minutes ago, myata said:

So, cannot explain why it should be done but "ostracized as social pariahs" if you don't. Talk about the meaning of brainwashed. Shaman, and the fire?

I can explain why. 

Unvaxxed are exponentially more likely to experience severe illness from the disease and clog up hospitals. 

The restrictions are limited. It's not like you're locked in your home.

[Accountability Now]

31 minutes ago, Boges said:

2 reasons for that. 

1) 80+% of the population is fully vaxxed. 

Actually 77% but who's counting.  Cases on Wednesday had 60% fully vaxxed, yesterday was 63%....I suspect this will keep climbing as Omicron takes over from Delta. Eventually this could be 77% or even higher. At that point it will be conclusive that the vaxx is doing nothing to stop this. Maybe people rush out to get the booster but again, X percent will say F it. 

38 minutes ago, Boges said:

2) Unvaxxed aren't really allowed to congregate in large public settings. 

You really think that not letting unvaxxed into a Leafs game or a restaurant is stopping people from living their lives? Unvaxxed kids are still going to school. Unvaxxed workers are still going to work. Hell...unvaxxed nurses and doctors are still in hospitals. Your point is really naïve as you make it seem like the only way to catch covid is at a Leafs game. 

 

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

ICU occupancy is still overwhelmingly unvaxxed. 

Hospitalizations lag infections by 2-3 weeks and 2-3 weeks ago Ontario's daily covid cases were around 600 with 40% of those cases fully vaxxed. Today those daily cases have tripled and 63% of the cases are now fully vaxxed.  I guess we will wait and see what the ICU numbers look like in that time. 

 

 

[Boges]

14 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Actually 77% but who's counting.  Cases on Wednesday had 60% fully vaxxed, yesterday was 63%....I suspect this will keep climbing as Omicron takes over from Delta. Eventually this could be 77% or even higher. At that point it will be conclusive that the vaxx is doing nothing to stop this. Maybe people rush out to get the booster but again, X percent will say F it.

If you use a per capita calculation (like per 100,000) unvaxxed present double the caseload. 

Almost 20 cases per 100,000 vs 8 for unvaxxed. 

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread

 

Quote

You really think that not letting unvaxxed into a Leafs game or a restaurant is stopping people from living their lives? Unvaxxed kids are still going to school. Unvaxxed workers are still going to work. Hell...unvaxxed nurses and doctors are still in hospitals. Your point is really naïve as you make it seem like the only way to catch covid is at a Leafs game. 

Oh, here I am being told that the vax restrictions are comparable to Nazi Germany and the Jews. Silly me. 

It's more targeted to places like indoor dining, gyms and other organized sports and theathre. No one is wearing masks in these environments. 

 

Quote

Hospitalizations lag infections by 2-3 weeks and 2-3 weeks ago Ontario's daily covid cases were around 600 with 40% of those cases fully vaxxed. Today those daily cases have tripled and 63% of the cases are now fully vaxxed.  I guess we will wait and see what the ICU numbers look like in that time. 

At least 2/3 of the active cases are amongst those under 20. So students. So I don't suspect we'll see a glut of people cramming the hospital. They don't specify report how many of each age group are vaccinated or, but I think it's a safe assumption many of the unvaxxed positive cases are in those under 30. So I'm not terribly worried. 

I do concede a gross level of panic porn from the MSM and public health officials. And my biggest fear is overbearing contact restrictions and closing businesses again. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Boges

[Accountability Now]

15 minutes ago, Boges said:

If you use a per capita calculation (like per 100,000) unvaxxed present double the caseload. 

Almost 20 cases per 100,000 vs 8 for unvaxxed. 

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread

First off...not sure how up to date their data is. When you click on Cases by Age, the data is only up to Nov 28. Having said that, you need to look at the rate of change. In the last month, the cases per 100k have doubled for the unvaxxed but quadrupled for the vaxxed.  Vaxxed cases were consistently lower than the partially vaxxed and now it looks like they are going to surpass that and could possibly catch the unvaxxed. 

 

21 minutes ago, Boges said:

Oh, here I am being told that the vax restrictions are comparable to Nazi Germany and the Jews. Silly me. 

It's more targeted to places like indoor dining, gyms and other organized sports and theathre. No one is wearing masks in these environments. 

I haven't had much change other than having to get rapid tests. Life is pretty much normal for me other than not being able to get on a plane. Nazi Germany...no but even my pro vaxx friends here admit that the idea of vaccine passports six months ago was conspiracy theory....now here we are. 

23 minutes ago, Boges said:

At least 2/3 of the active cases are amongst those under 20. So students. So I don't suspect we'll see a glut of people cramming the hospital. They don't specify report how many of each age group are vaccinated or, but I think it's a safe assumption many of the unvaxxed positive cases are in those under 30. So I'm not terribly worried. 

Do you have a citation to support the 2/3 claim? I'd agree with you if this is true. The youth have disproportionally carried the cases for all of Covid but I haven't hear 2/3 for new cases.  

If the hospitals remain quiet then we all win. If hospitals fill with unvaxxed then people will be happy to get boosters. But if they fill with vaxxed then X percent of those people will view the booster and the mandates as a waste of time. Personally I am pulling for the first option.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

and clog up hospitals. 

No, you haven't explained anything and we've been at this already. There's any number of conditions that are "clogging hospitals" so let's make indiscriminate mandatory policies for all of them to keep hospitals empty with CEOs happily raking taxpayer funds. I already suggested a solution that wouldn't use your precious resources and save us on taxes too.

So like an arrogant and clueless ruler you patently couldn't solve the problem at hand and prevent anyone else from trying.

[OftenWrong]

Apples and oranges, mios amigos. Beware thinking your simplified cause-and-effect models are telling the real story. There could be many other factors coming into play.

The same people who are vaccine hesitant might also do a poor job at things like physical distancing and avoiding inhaling the breath of others. Hence a higher propensity to catch a virus in this subgroup.

Speculation yes, but it's possible.

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

First off...not sure how up to date their data is. When you click on Cases by Age, the data is only up to Nov 28. Having said that, you need to look at the rate of change. In the last month, the cases per 100k have doubled for the unvaxxed but quadrupled for the vaxxed.  Vaxxed cases were consistently lower than the partially vaxxed and now it looks like they are going to surpass that and could possibly catch the unvaxxed. 

 

I

I agree with accountability, the numbers are not up to date, and with the country now surpassing 80 % vaccinated the infected rates are slowly going to change sides. . For a couple reasons the unvaxxed are not as exposed as the vaccinated are, sure they are still allowed to get food, pharma and a few other things but the vaccinated for the most part have free range. and this new variant is so much more transmissible. What we have to watch is who is being hospitalize.  

Edited December 17, 2021 by Army Guy

[Yzermandius19]

12 hours ago, Boges said:

Eventually, yeah. 

Unless you're an anti-vax loon, this is no big deal. 

wrong

plenty of pro vax people are anti vax mandates

and rightfully so

you just aren't one of them

[OftenWrong]

I know a few people who were already a little mentally unwell who are now stressing out over this shutdown. They are giving up hope that they might ever have a normal life again.

These people need help, and our government can help them by providing more resources for mental healthcare. Offer financial assistance. Provide incentives for people to work in these industries.

It's not my job to think up solutions, but doesn't seem to be forthcoming from what I see.

The only time the wealthy get indignant over this is when it threatens their holiday travel plans. Then it's "People will only take so much of this, you know." You self-righteous know-it-all hypocrites make me sick

[betsy]

15 hours ago, Boges said:

In a perfect world, the people who don't think Vaccination are some plot against our freedoms will get it, and that will be enough. And I hope for that. 

The majority of people are caught between the Anti-Vax crowd that think this all is a plot to take away our freedoms and the Public Health Doctors and panic fetish crowd that don't think any level of risk is appropriate. 

It's exhausting. 

Cool down.

It's wise to be discerning.  To question, does not necessarily mean one is against something.

[Yzermandius19]

you can be in favor of something, but opposed to it being mandatory

you can be against something, but not in favor of it being banned

smart people understand this

not Boges though

he thinks only anti-vaxxers oppose vax mandates

Edited December 17, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

16 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

First off...not sure how up to date their data is. When you click on Cases by Age, the data is only up to Nov 28. Having said that, you need to look at the rate of change. In the last month, the cases per 100k have doubled for the unvaxxed but quadrupled for the vaxxed.  Vaxxed cases were consistently lower than the partially vaxxed and now it looks like they are going to surpass that and could possibly catch the unvaxxed. 

 

I haven't had much change other than having to get rapid tests. Life is pretty much normal for me other than not being able to get on a plane. Nazi Germany...no but even my pro vaxx friends here admit that the idea of vaccine passports six months ago was conspiracy theory....now here we are. 

Do you have a citation to support the 2/3 claim? I'd agree with you if this is true. The youth have disproportionally carried the cases for all of Covid but I haven't hear 2/3 for new cases.  

If the hospitals remain quiet then we all win. If hospitals fill with unvaxxed then people will be happy to get boosters. But if they fill with vaxxed then X percent of those people will view the booster and the mandates as a waste of time. Personally I am pulling for the first option.

You have to dig deeper into this site. 

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread

Under Cases by Vaccination you can view the stats per 100,000 and see that the unvaxxed arc is well above the the vaxxed and partially vaxxed arc. Unsurprisingly, cases for the 60-79 age group are almost exclusively from unvaxxed individuals. 

If you go down to cases by age you can filter out resolved and deaths and just look at  active cases. Though maybe not 2/3 (that was a weak estimate by me, my apologies). Cases under 20 are double any other age group. 

I've uploaded screenshots. 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Boges

[ChristopherCross]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:48 AM, Boges said:

Eventually, yeah. 

Unless you're an anti-vax loon, this is no big deal. 

But only 'approved' shots will be be allowed:PFIZER... because PFIZER is the only trustworthy corporation, no big deal' right?   The only loon here is the one with his head in the sand. 

 

https://cleverjourneys.com/2021/06/29/pfizers-corruption-history-leads-reasonable-people-to-question-their-experimental-vaccine/

[Boges]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherCross said:

But only 'approved' shots will be be allowed:PFIZER... because PFIZER is the only trustworthy corporation, no big deal' right?   The only loon here is the one with his head in the sand. 

https://cleverjourneys.com/2021/06/29/pfizers-corruption-history-leads-reasonable-people-to-question-their-experimental-vaccine/

I got Moderna, actually.