Enough is enough. Ban protests outside hospitals.

[Yzermandius19]

this all stems from

render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's

meaning that Caesar shouldn't infringe on God's territory and God shouldn't infringe on Caesar's territory

that's where the idea for the separation of church and state comes from

and the idea of limited government, because government shouldn't control or manage every aspect of life

and some things are outside its purview, specifically what is God's, like rights for example

you can't get to rights, without something being put above government authority, Christians believe that authority is God

if government is the highest authority then they are mere privileges, not rights

see how that works?

see how that stems from God, through Jesus, then through the followers of Jesus, to the Constitutions they wrote, to you?

Edited September 28, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So who decides which rights God wants us to have?   Did God want us to have the right to practice any religion we want?

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”

Does that sound compatible with religious freedom?

The Bible says which rights God wants us to have.  Each situation is different and sometimes it requires some study to know clearly.  A Charter or Constitution says we have religious freedom.  The Bible says what we are to believe.  So the Charter is not a guide for truth and does not tell one what to believe. 

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The Bible says which rights God wants us to have.  Each situation is different and sometimes it requires some study to know clearly.  A Charter or Constitution says we have religious freedom.  The Bible says what we are to believe.  So the Charter is not a guide for truth and does not tell one what to believe. 

You say God doesn’t like gay rights.  Another says God would want gay rights.  
 

Do you think that everyone agrees on what the bible says about our rights?  How does one tell who is correct when there is disagreement among believers?

Edited September 29, 2021 by TreeBeard

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, TreeBeard said:

Do you think that everyone agrees on what the bible says about our rights?  

No!    The Bible teaches that this world system is under the rule of Satan and most people are under his dominion.  That is another important factor that has to be considered.  If you want to understand this in any detail I would suggest the book called Satan available on Amazon.  It can also be downloaded as a Kindle book and read on a computer, laptop, or Kindle reader.  The book explains quite well what Satan's objectives are and how to be delivered or escape his dominion.  I was just going to do a search and look a little further into what some Bible expositors have to say about human rights and the Bible.  I don't claim to know a lot about it right now.  

[TreeBeard]

@blackbird says:

there is no such thing as God recognizing gay marriage  

@Yzermandius19 says 

God does not oppose love or marriage

God does not think gay's should have any less rights than heterosexuals

 

You both believe our rights came from God.  

How do I tell who is right?

And, if I can’t, how useful is it to say God gave us these rights, but we can’t agree on which ones or even know which ones are the God-given ones when we disagree?

Edited September 29, 2021 by TreeBeard

[blackbird]

18 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

@blackbird says:

there is no such thing as God recognizing gay marriage  

@Yzermandius19 says 

God does not oppose love or marriage

God does not think gay's should have any less rights than heterosexuals

 

You both believe our rights came from God.  

How do I tell who is right?

And, if I can’t, how useful is it to say God gave us these rights, but we can’t agree on which ones or even know which ones are the God-given ones when we disagree?

This website goes into the subject of human rights and the Bible.  Probably many other websites would give much more information.  But this might be a start.

What is a biblical view of human rights? (compellingtruth.org)

I believe what the Bible says, not what progressives or liberals might say about any particular subject.   You say how do you tell which one is correct.  The answer is the Bible.  You can use a search engine and enter the words for the subject and Bible and you will come up with many sites with information.  You should be able to find reliable, trustworthy sites which back up what they say with scripture references and sound teaching.  There is no need to run out a buy expensive books.  Most of the information is available via search engines unless you want to dig deeper into a subject.  Then a book may be useful.

Edited September 29, 2021 by blackbird

[TreeBeard]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This website goes into the subject of human rights and the Bible.  Probably many other websites would give much more information.  But this might be a start.

What is a biblical view of human rights? (compellingtruth.org)

I believe what the Bible says, not what progressives or liberals might say about any particular subject.   You say how do you tell which one is correct.  The answer is the Bible.  You can use a search engine and enter the words for the subject and Bible and you will come up with many sites with information.  You should be able to find reliable, trustworthy sites which back up what they say with scripture references and sound teaching.

If that’s the case, then God is against our freedom of religion rights?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

[OftenWrong]

In fact protests should have been started years ago, when smug fat-faced hospital administrators deemed it necessary to shutter entire wings of their hospitals and eliminate thousands of beds.

The health care system in ON was on its knees and a disaster right before covid. You can google it. Just don't forget to add the -covid argument.

For example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=toronto+hospital+closes+beds+-covid

From this link we ascertain:

Ontario Health Coalition
More than one of every three of Ontario's acute care and chronic care hospital beds were closed between 1996 and 2000 ...

Ontario struggling with 18500 fewer hospital beds - Toronto Star
Sep. 7, 2011 — Ontario has cut 18,500 hospital beds since 1990 and now has fewer than any ...

Patients' advocacy group says Ontario hospitals closing beds
Dec. 5, 2012 — TORONTO - A patients' advocacy group that says Ontario hospitals are being forced to close beds, shut clinics and cut services that cannot ...

Health minister 'is OK' with closing hospital beds - Toronto Star
Feb. 25, 2013 — Ontario Health Minister Deb Matthews discusses plan for health care reform but disputes claim that spending has been cut by $3 billion.

Ontario Government Responsible for Overwhelmed Hospital ...
Jan. 10, 2017 - Reports of critical and pervasive hospital bed shortages are streaming in from across Ontario.

Ontario: the province that never learns - The Council of ...
A safe level of bed occupancy is considered to be below 82%. There are other stories resulting from rural hospital closures in Ontario ...

=====

Please, carry on bitching and complaining why we need to close down more medical services now. Because Covid.

And why people may not protest what is happening. Because Covid.

 

[blackbird]

12 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

If that’s the case, then God is against our freedom of religion rights?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

God would be against freedom of religion if one used it as an excuse to worship a false god. The term "freedom of religion" is really just a man-made concept that guarantees you can worship whatever you wish. But God would also oppose a government or system that denied people the right to worship the true God as in a Communist country.

The Charter guarantee of freedom of religion is still useful though as it supposedly guarantees anyone can follow whatever religion they choose.  It is far better than depriving freedom of religion as China tries to do.

Edited September 29, 2021 by blackbird

[TreeBeard]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It is far better than depriving freedom of religion as China tries to do.

Or as your God wants to do?  You think God wants people to be Buddhist or Sikh?  Isn’t it eternal damnation for those guys?

[blackbird]

10 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Or as your God wants to do?  You think God wants people to be Buddhist or Sikh?  Isn’t it eternal damnation for those guys?

 The Bible makes it clear.  I will turn the question back to you.  Why would God want people to worship false gods?

[TreeBeard]

22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 The Bible makes it clear.  I will turn the question back to you.  Why would God want people to worship false gods?

Clearly he doesn’t.  Hence it’s incompatible with Canadian rights.

I thought you said rights were God-given earlier?  But now you say only some of the rights are God-given.

Colour me confused.

[Aristides]

Quote

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Nothing about god there.

[blackbird]

39 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Clearly he doesn’t.  Hence it’s incompatible with Canadian rights.

I thought you said rights were God-given earlier?  But now you say only some of the rights are God-given.

Colour me confused.

I am sorry if you are confused.  I tried to explain what I thought as best as I could and added I don't claim to know a lot about the subject.   I will say again if I haven't been clear enough that the Bible is the final authority for the Bible-believer, not a state's Constitution or Charter of Rights.  Therefore if you are confused, I am not sure what exactly you mean.  I am not sure what your point is.  I already explained the Charter is a country's statement in writing of what rights it's citizens have.  It may or may not, depending how it is interpreted on any given issue, agree with or be opposed to God's written revelation, the Bible.  That should be fairly easy to understand.

[dialamah]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

And why people may not protest what is happening. Because Covid.

People can protest; why would you think they cannot?  The objection is where they were carried out and how they impacted sick people, not the protests themselves.

But "you people" seem to find it necessary to lie to support your arguments.  Why is that?

[Boges]

Anyone who uses God or Jesus to justify their Anti-Vax position is a POS. 

They're no better than Jehovah's Witnesses that would prefer their children to die than get them a blood transfusion. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Boges

[Yzermandius19]

46 minutes ago, Boges said:

Anyone who uses God or Jesus to justify their Anti-Vax position is a POS. 

They're no better than Jehovah's Witnesses that would prefer their children to die than get them a blood transfusion. 

which still puts them far above those who support vaccine mandates

it ain't the anti-vax side who wants to take freedoms away

Edited September 29, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

which still puts them far above those who support vaccine mandates

it ain't the anti-vax side who wants to take freedoms away

Religious institutions love to take people's rights away. 

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Religious institutions love to take people's rights away. 

and when they do so

I oppose that

same as when you want to take rights away

Edited September 29, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

and when they do so

I oppose that

same as when you want to take rights away

I think you live in a fantasy world where we should have absolute freedom to do anything. 

With vaccines, it's similar to Seatbelts. Why is seatbelt wearing a law? It doesn't effect anyone if I do or don't wear a seatbelt.

Ditto with illicit drugs. 

They all fall into a public health realm. You're delusional to think that these types of restrictions aren't already common place. 

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

I think you live in a fantasy world where we should have absolute freedom to do anything. 

With vaccines, it's similar to Seatbelts. Why is seatbelt wearing a law? It doesn't effect anyone if I do or don't wear a seatbelt.

Ditto with illicit drugs. 

They all fall into a public health realm. You're delusional to think that these types of restrictions aren't already common place. 

I am not making the argument that people should have the absolute freedom to do anything

I am not making the argument that those type of restrictions aren't commonplace

those are strawman

I am making the argument that the restrictions being proposed are counterproductive and that they shouldn't be restricted

drug prohibition is stupid

vaccine mandates are stupid

Edited September 29, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I am making the argument that the restrictions being imposed are counterproductive and that they shouldn't be restricted

Restrictions on the Restrictions? 

In Ontario, the restrictions are very narrow in scope. Much narrower than the lockdowns. 

[Yzermandius19]

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

Restrictions on the Restrictions? 

In Ontario, the restrictions are very narrow in scope. Much narrower than the lockdowns. 

not a fan of the lockdowns either

both are stupid ideas

the lockdowns being more stupid

doesn't make the vaccine passports a good idea

Edited September 29, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[TreeBeard]

18 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the people who took the ideas from the bible, to discover the idea of rights that should be protected from government infringement, were inspired by God to do so

They were “inspired by God”?  I thought you said rights came from God.  But it’s just people giving the rights now?

 

Quote

directly or indirectly coming from God is besides the point

 

If you would have said “people were inspired by God to give us our right” I would agree.  

When you say “God gave us our rights”, do you see how that is a significantly different claim?

 

Quote

if you cherish your rights, they came from God, one way or the other, the exact mechanism of that is mere minutae relative to that objective truth

You believe Pierre Trudeau was inspired by God to give Canadians their rights?

 

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They were “inspired by God”?  I thought you said rights came from God.  But it’s just people giving the rights now?

 

If you would have said “people were inspired by God to give us our right” I would agree.  

When you say “God gave us our rights”, do you see how that is a significantly different claim?

 

You believe Pierre Trudeau was inspired by God to give Canadians their rights?

 

Pierre Trudeau didn't give Canadians their rights

God did

Trudeau just recognized that