Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

myata · August 9, 2021

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If you are not vaccinated similarly you pose a threat to others as the chances you are infected is much higher than vaccinated ones not to mention mutations.

One is subjectively picking risks and measures to prevent them. Without argumentation, factual evidence, measures, balance of considerations, only on scary propaganda. Equivalence to drunk driving is a false one: drinking is a conscious choice, while vaccinations have small but very real side effects. Encouraging to not drink is not the same as forcing vaccination with a small risk of dangerous complications. And how is it different from dictatorship where any kind of restrictions on citizens freedoms can be justified by fear and propaganda?

CITIZEN_2015 · August 9, 2021

1 hour ago, myata said:

One is subjectively picking risks and measures to prevent them. Without argumentation, factual evidence, measures, balance of considerations, only on scary propaganda. Equivalence to drunk driving is a false one: drinking is a conscious choice, while vaccinations have small but very real side effects. Encouraging to not drink is not the same as forcing vaccination with a small risk of dangerous complications. And how is it different from dictatorship where any kind of restrictions on citizens freedoms can be justified by fear and propaganda?

My previous post clearly explains the whatever action that endangers the safety of innocent bystanders should be banned and that is to protect the innocents from being harmed. That is the fundamental of democracy not dictatorship. Democracy does not mean citizens can do whatever they want or exercise the rights they don't have like endangering other people.

Zeitgeist · August 9, 2021

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

My previous post clearly explains the whatever action that endangers the safety of innocent bystanders should be banned and that is to protect the innocents from being harmed. That is the fundamental of democracy not dictatorship. Democracy does not mean citizens can do whatever they want or exercise the rights they don't have like endangering other people.

But most people who can get the vaccine have gotten it, over 80%. If you’re still worried about getting Covid, stay home and when you go out you can wear two masks and keep away from people. I personally just don’t give a shit anymore. I got fully vaccinated and I’m hanging out with people at close proximity, vaccinated or not. My only concern at this point is making sure that people who can’t get the vaccine protect themselves and making sure that bars are nice and crowded and full of dancing without masks. I’m back to normal, but there are many psychologically damaged people and fearful people, even among the vaccinated, who don’t want to or can’t return to normal. That and continued restrictions are persistent problems.

CITIZEN_2015 · August 9, 2021

21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But most people who can get the vaccine have gotten it, over 80%. If you’re still worried about getting Covid, stay home and when you go out you can wear two masks and keep away from people. I personally just don’t give a shit anymore. I got fully vaccinated and I’m hanging out with people at close proximity, vaccinated or not. My only concern at this point is making sure that people who can’t get the vaccine protect themselves and making sure that bars are nice and crowded and full of dancing without masks. I’m back to normal, but there are many psychologically damaged people and fearful people, even among the vaccinated, who don’t want to or can’t return to normal. That and continued restrictions are persistent problems.

That 80% of eligible people is not enough to create herd immunity (we need 90% of eligible people) so the pandemic will be back full force in the fall mostly among unvaccinated and the unvaccinated people are responsible for that so likely government will impose lockdowns again as hospitalizations will rise again and health care system will be overwhelmed, lockdowns will be affecting everyone including me and you.

Why should I restrict myself because some selfish people in the name of democracy refused to get the vaccine. I will not and if I catch the virus I will likely have mild symptoms because I am fully vaccinated. I will continue to go to public places and if any unvaccinated catch it then lit it be. It was a democracy and he/she exercised his/her rights to die.

myata · August 9, 2021

29 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

My previous post clearly explains the whatever action that endangers the safety of innocent bystanders should be banned and that is to protect the innocents from being harmed.

I wouldn't like to live in that democracy where "endangering actions" are decided by some authority unilaterally and arbitrarily without any accountability or taking into account rights and freedoms of citizens. This is a sure path to dictatorship, and all of them started under some good, benevolent premise. There's no way to determine what action and a situation, out of billions of combinations possible could potentially endanger safety of somebody somewhere, rationally this would be no different from witchhunts of old.

We have to be very careful with that. A precedent based on fear may pave the way for a brave new world where we would wake up to ever new "endangering actions" found by the government with new mandatory measures. Be careful what you wish for, it may just come true.

myata · August 9, 2021

Should we be very seriously concerned if our democracy is in a grave crisis, already? Like who's going to detect and prevent abuse of power? There's no more independent citizen representatives, only party employees. Independent non-partisan commissions, not possible. Courts have removed themselves till end of pandemic what if it means, indefinitely? Free press found another occupation orchestrating at lockdown shows. Like who's left here or what?

Someone here not so long ago seriously suggested that GG can be the (sole) guard and guarantor of democracy. In this century, seriously? And no other options?

CITIZEN_2015 · August 9, 2021

15 minutes ago, myata said:

Should we be very seriously concerned if our democracy is in a grave crisis, already? Like who's going to detect and prevent abuse of power? There's no more independent citizen representatives, only party employees. Independent non-partisan commissions, not possible. Courts have removed themselves till end of pandemic what if it means, indefinitely? Free press found another occupation orchestrating at lockdown shows. Like who's left here or what?

Someone here not so long ago seriously suggested that GG can be the (sole) guard and guarantor of democracy. In this century, seriously? And no other options?

That is your definition of democracy. Citizens can do what they want and exercise the rights they don't have. There is a red line in any real democracy and the red line is crossed when other people's lives are endangered and that is where actions like drunk driving, public smoking and covid vaccination fall and cross the red line.

Examples are Like freedom of speech is important part of democracy but red line is crossed when you invoke people to attack and kill certain groups or minorities. The right to drink is valid as long as you don't drive and endanger other people, The right to smoke also is preserved as long as you don't smoke in public causing harm to others. The right to not vaccine is also preserved as long as you don't leave home and endanger other people,

Edited August 9, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

myata · August 9, 2021

Democracy is not about "right" as abstract concept on paper it exists in China, Russia and North Korea, here look the right! It's about defending and protecting the rights and any right in reality. And these can be two entirely different entities. Like who promised that a check printed in some pretty brochure can always be cashed?

OftenWrong · August 9, 2021

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

That 80% of eligible people is not enough to create herd immunity (we need 90% of eligible people) so the pandemic will be back full force in the fall mostly among unvaccinated and the unvaccinated people are responsible for that so likely government will impose lockdowns again as hospitalizations will rise again and health care system will be overwhelmed, lockdowns will be affecting everyone including me and you.

Why should I restrict myself because some selfish people in the name of democracy refused to get the vaccine. I will not and if I catch the virus I will likely have mild symptoms because I am fully vaccinated. I will continue to go to public places and if any unvaccinated catch it then lit it be. It was a democracy and he/she exercised his/her rights to die.

Do you believe the difference between 80 and 90% will make such a difference? I doubt the numbers.

Besides, where do you get that number from? The other day I think you wrote it must be higher than 90.

CITIZEN_2015 · August 9, 2021

22 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Do you believe the difference between 80 and 90% will make such a difference? I doubt the numbers.

Besides, where do you get that number from? The other day I think you wrote it must be higher than 90.

There is no magical number but at current 81% we are seeing hundreds of infections every day in Ontario close to 96% of which is among unvaccinated people and less than 0.7% among fully vaccinated people. But for Delta variant we need a higher percent of entire population (about 80%) or at least 90% of eligible people. The higher the better. At 90% hopefully we achieve herd immunity but even if we don't, 96% of 10% will not be large enough to force lockdowns and loss of jobs and distruptions to our normal lives for rest of us.

Edited August 9, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

Shady · August 9, 2021

Covid will be with us probably indefinitely, the same way the flu, pneumonia and other seasonal viruses are. Covid will become less and less virulent, but as the flu, disproportionately affect older unhealthy people in particular. And just a reminder to people, but we’ve had flu vaccines for 70+ years, and the flu hasn’t gone anywhere. It’s best to learn to live with covid as a seasonal illness.

CITIZEN_2015 · August 10, 2021

3 hours ago, Shady said:

Covid will be with us probably indefinitely, the same way the flu, pneumonia and other seasonal viruses are. Covid will become less and less virulent, but as the flu, disproportionately affect older unhealthy people in particular. And just a reminder to people, but we’ve had flu vaccines for 70+ years, and the flu hasn’t gone anywhere. It’s best to learn to live with covid as a seasonal illness.

As far as I remember it has been 20-25 years not 70 years and most effective flu vaccine has been around 40% whereas efficacy of covid vaccines are around 80 to 90%. It makes a big difference.

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

On 8/8/2021 at 10:05 AM, marcus said:

Two things happen when people are vaccinated:

1) The symptoms are almost all gone. Which results in not dying for pretty much anyone who gets it.

2) Due to non-existent, or very low symptoms,

When people weren't vaccinated, well over 99% of healthy people had non-existent, or very low symptoms.

Quote

the ability to spread the virus is drastically reduced.

Really? The exact same %age of vaccinated and unvaccinated people in Massachusetts were found to be carrying the D variant. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/provincetown-covid-outbreak-vaccinated/

The article says that few vaccinated people get sick, but NBC sings quite a different tune: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/breakthrough-covid-cases-least-125-000-fully-vaccinated-americans-have-n1275500

Quote

WASHINGTON — At least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died, according to data collected by NBC News.

It doesn't seem like the mortality rate among the vaccinated is any lower than the rate for anyone else.

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

59 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

As far as I remember it has been 20-25 years not 70 years and most effective flu vaccine has been around 40% whereas efficacy of covid vaccines are around 80 to 90%. It makes a big difference.

Holy drank the Kool Aid Batman, an 80-90% efficacy rate? THAT'S AMAZING!!!!

Not really........ 98% of unvaccinated people survive covid, and that stat includes the very elderly with co-morbidities (even the ones trapped inside NY State care homes). FYI the average age of covid deaths is 75 years and only 12% of the population is 65 and over.

Covid was very dangerous for people 50+ who were smokers for a few decades, or 60+ with co-morbidities, and not dangerous for others.

FYI: the massive number of people who took the vaccine, but weren't at risk of dying from covid either way, has skewed the vaccine efficacy stats.

OftenWrong · August 10, 2021

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

There is no magical number but at current 81% we are seeing hundreds of infections every day in Ontario close to 96% of which is among unvaccinated people and less than 0.7% among fully vaccinated people. But for Delta variant we need a higher percent of entire population (about 80%) or at least 90% of eligible people. The higher the better. At 90% hopefully we achieve herd immunity but even if we don't, 96% of 10% will not be large enough to force lockdowns and loss of jobs and distruptions to our normal lives for rest of us.

I beg to differ. There is, indeed, a magical number. It’s part of a field of science called immunology. They do know how to determine herd immunity by the level of vaccinated in a population, whether it be mice,, or men.

Remember, we had a big drop before and so if we want to know how much vaccines are working, need to compare to last summer.

There could be other reasons why the numbers go up and down, it’s foolish to assume the reasons without very careful analysis. The full explanation takes longer, and the numbers are still coming in.

We will know more between now and the fall, and can compare to last year unvaccinated.

OftenWrong · August 10, 2021

19 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If you are not vaccinated similarly you pose a threat to others

In the country I was raised you are not guilty by default. You don’t have to prove, arbitrarily and on demand by some government- sanctioned chivatto, that you are not guilty of a crime.

There has to be reasonable evidence of a problem before they can pull you over.

I guess my country’s gone bye byes now. So long,,

I’m still here.

myata · August 10, 2021

This is an example that clearly shows that suppression of freedoms is not an evil act by some evil dictator but mostly and primarily, a choice. It requires only two ingredients: 1) relegation of critical questioning and accountability; and 2) fear. And then, past that line anything can be justified. Not like there isn't the history to demonstrate it over and over, and yet again.

OftenWrong · August 10, 2021

1 hour ago, myata said:

This is an example that clearly shows that suppression of freedoms is not an evil act by some evil dictator but mostly and primarily, a choice. It requires only two ingredients: 1) relegation of critical questioning and accountability; and 2) fear. And then, past that line anything can be justified. Not like there isn't the history to demonstrate it over and over, and yet again.

The dumderheads are sore afraid. Their attention has been captured.

I heard ON broke a record yesterday, most drug overdoses in one day ever in recorded history. How’s that for social progress.

No we are either utterly utterly stupid, or subjects being controlled towards a destiny in which we no longer have a say. Which is it? I know we are stupid, but no, cant be the reason. Smart people are trying to speak out. They are being shouted down by people who type in all bolded caps, for example...

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

The dumderheads are sore afraid. Their attention has been captured.

I heard ON broke a record yesterday, most drug overdoses in one day ever in recorded history. How’s that for social progress.

No we are either utterly utterly stupid, or subjects being controlled towards a destiny in which we no longer have a say. Which is it? I know we are stupid, but no, cant be the reason. Smart people are trying to speak out. They are being shouted down by people who type in all bolded caps, for example...

The 18-30 yr olds who die of opioids don't matter. In the US about 900,000 of them have died and it's officially no big deal again now that Trump's gone.

In BC's worst covid month ever opioid deaths were almost neck and neck, still no one here gave a shit about opioids.

myata · August 10, 2021

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

The dumderheads are sore afraid. Their attention has been captured.

I heard ON broke a record yesterday, most drug overdoses in one day ever in recorded history. How’s that for social progress.

Here's how:

1. Orders and directions obeyed no questions asked, no explanations needed.

2. MP, GG and CEO enjoy well-earned entitlements to entitlements, no questions asked with automatic annual % on % raises.

And so, life is good. "And nothing else matters".

I hope now, with borders wide open to vaccinated no-quarantine travelers even an idea of a future lockdown would be seen as total nonsense (it needs to be said now, just in case). It's obvious common sense but these day who can tell for certain (travel from Wuhan).

And one other thing I'm going to watch with interest is how long could mandatory orders be extended, without any accountability, oversight, essentially arbitrary and indiscriminate exercise of authority (otherwise the evidence substantiating these orders would need to be presented a year to six months back). Just curious, what it could be here: 3 months, six months, another year, five years, or twenty? Like who knows, is there a limit, and where and who sets it?

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

Facts are out, leftists have run scared...

taxme · August 10, 2021

On 8/7/2021 at 1:59 PM, WestCanMan said:

Infidel Dog quoted the CDC, saying that 750 fully vaccinated people died of covid. That seems like a lot.

Really? Whenever someone who's supposedly healthy dies in another country it's newsworthy, then we see their picture and they're old and obese.

Just yesterday, posters here pasted a link to a 56 yr old who died of covid in England. If covid is known to kill healthy people then how is that newsworthy?

Yeah, the people who have been lying to us all along get to blame vaxxed deaths on the Delta Variant now.

Ooh, the Delta variant. Shiny. Need a new vaxx for that, no doubt.

When people are fully vaxxed, right up to the zeta and omega variants, will they still have the same infection rates as everyone else?

Is the vaxx bullshit?

For the past 1,000 years people have known enough to block people from entering their towns and countries when they were coming from places that had smallpox or plague outbreaks. Why did the WHO suddenly get that wrong? Did science suddenly decide that 'avoid it like the plague' was too racist for the modern world?

Honestly, if you look at the way we handled covid here before March 16th, it really looks like the Liberals and the Democrats were doing everything that they could to get covid into NA. Do you remember who was saying "Ride the subway! Hug strangers in crowded areas! Covid travel bans are racist!" All leftists.

Now those leftists who were either completely useless, abominably stupid, or downright evil at the beginning of covid are telling us all to get the vaxx or we'll be marginalized, but actual science is telling us that the vaxx might be more of a placebo than anything else. Now the blame "the shiny new Delta Variant..."

Apparently, this covid experimental vaccine has not yet been approved by the FDA. It is still in it's experimental stage.

Source: Awakecanada website.

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

Just now, taxme said:

Apparently, this covid experimental vaccine has not yet been approved by the FDA. It is still in it's experimental stage.

Source: Awakecanada website.

Last I heard, you still had to sign a waiver releasing the makers of the vaccine from liability in the event that it causes sickness or death.

WestCanMan · August 10, 2021

40 minutes ago, myata said:

I hope now, with borders wide open to vaccinated no-quarantine travelers

I think you mean "racists".

Only 30% of blacks in the US, or at least in NY, are vaccinated. This is just the latest scheme to keep black folks down.

I honestly can't wait to see the video of a bunch of black people getting told that they can't go somewhere without vaxx ID. My popcorn is already in the microwave.

taxme · August 10, 2021

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Last I heard, you still had to sign a waiver releasing the makers of the vaccine from liability in the event that it causes sickness or death.

If the vaccine is supposed to be so safe, why then does anyone have to sign a waiver? That is like some retail store that sells someone a TV, and tries to get you to sign a waiver, that says that if the TV breaks down we cannot be held responsible. One is stuck with a broken down TV. In this case, one may be stuck with a vaccine that does not really work and may seriously make one sick or die. If one believes in their product then way a waiver?

If big pharma tries to tell us that this covid vaccine will save our lives, and protect us from covid, so we will not die, then what are they afraid of? Big pharma already knows that this covid vaccine has more not so nice stuff in it then what they are willing to tell us. Just saying. ?