Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

We do know how many people who are getting sick are unvaccinated, and that's most of them.

We know how many people who tested positive for C19 in Massachusetts already had the vaxx - 75%.

Guess how many people there are Vaxxed? 73.2% have at least one dose, 64.3 have had both.

Apparently drinking water, breathing air and taking the vaccine give people in Massachusetts the same chance of getting covid. 

Quote

No, it did not. That's bullshit. He's a scumbag who sells people on 'natural' health care 'cures' as an alternative to the ones which work.

Natural health care does work against covid. Being healthy and taking proper precautions if you get covid are enough to ensure a full recovery.

Quote

He's an anti vax moron who instead directs people to buy his 'natural' remedies and has made himself a fortune out of conning the gullible like you.

And who are you to call other people gullible Argus? 

Quote

He's an osteopath

Wikipedia:

Quote

United States[edit]

Main article: Osteopathic medicine in the United States

An osteopathic physician in the United States is a physician trained in the full scope of medical practice, with a degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO).^{[121][11][122][123]}. 

and...

Quote

and has no specialized knowledge about diseases and vaccines.

He's not an epidemiologist or a virologist but he's still a medical professional. You're just good at soaking up propaganda. 

As an osteopath, his medical opinion on C19 is worth far more than Greta Thunberg's opinion on climate change or race relations, so leftists have no room to talk on this one. 

[WestCanMan]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

This from the guy who worships 'covfefe' Don, the diaper man.

Trump made a typo in the middle of the night. Biden can't speak English at 1:00 in the afternoon. 

There's no comparison between the cognitive abilities of Trump and Biden.

Oooh, a diaper comparison? Yay!

One of them actually wears diapers, one of them had an affair with a playboy bunny while he was married to a supermodel.  This isn't a good topic for you.

[Infidel Dog]

  

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Apparently you cant count.

 

Can you count this?

Quote

CDC: 3,907 hospitalizations + 750 deaths in people fully vaccinated against COVID with an FDA-authorized vaccine as of June 21.

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1410226866141679617?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1410226866141679617|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifesitenews.com%2Fopinion%2Fscientist-delta-variant-more-transmissible-not-more-deadly%2F

How about this?

Quote

50% of new infections reported in Israel are from fully vaccinated people.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/scientist-delta-variant-more-transmissible-not-more-deadly/

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

No he wasn't correct. The variants happened before people started getting vaccinated. And there's zero evidence any of them sprang from trials. 

Actually it wasn't the Doctor who claimed the variants sprang from trials. He only claimed that once the vaccines hit the wild variants would follow. That turned out to be correct.

I was trying to help you see that what you want to call "anti-vaxxers" were actually saying was not what you thought they were saying.

For example...

I showed you a YouTuber who would be what you would call an "anti-vaxxer," and she was noticing the 100% coincidental first appearance of variants in areas that had been conducting criminal trials.

She only gave you evidence of a coincidence. Take that as you will. But at least be accurate as to what she's actually saying.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[WestCanMan]

10 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Alls I'm telling you is what you would call "anti-vaxxers" are actually saying. This is from the "anti-vaxxers" video you didn't watch.

What you or yours think of them is immaterial here. I'm just showing you what they're actually saying not what you'd like to believe they're saying.

BTW she also explains the bit about where the spreads began. She claims the variants began in areas (including India) where vaccine trials had been conducted. Did you catch that word, this time? "TRIALS." 

The Delta Variant was first identified in India Dec. 1 & 11. So now read the below and this time look for the word trials. 

Did you see it that time? See the the difference between what you want to believe she said and what she actually said? 

Good. Now stop being such a dummy. 

Everything in your post is worth of consideration.

I can't confirm or deny anything that a licensed physician said, but I do know that antibiotics are part of the reason why MRSA and other superbugs are becoming common. Theoretically, almost killing a certain type of bacteria can help it mutate into something stronger by natural selection.

Also, when antibiotics kill other bacteria, it gives superbugs an open lane to thrive:

Quote

In both the hospital and the community, antibiotic resistance has emerged as a major public health problem. In fact, some scientists consider it the most important public health problem of the twenty-first century. The problem exists not just because bacterial mutation rates lead to a rapid accumulation of mutations (including drug-resistant mutations), but also because of the selective pressures that antibiotics impose. If a drug-resistant phenotype were to evolve and there were no antibiotic present, then that phenotype would fare no better than any other bacterial phenotype. In other words, it wouldn't flourish, and it might even die out. It is only when antibiotics are used that drug-resistant phenotypes have a selective advantage and survive.

The natural selection topic is the only one of interest here, but I included this last part because it's a good example of something that Drs take things into consideration that laymen like us would never think about.

 

Anyways, here's just some thinking on my part, so take it with a salt block: 

Vaccinations used to work by putting weakened viruses, or viruses which could no longer replicate, into humans, to allow the body to develop immunity to the strain. Conversely, does putting vaccines into weak humans give the viruses a chance to find a way to defeat the body's slightly boosted immunity? Imagine billions of viruses replicating in different types of cells in a human body, one that's offering just enough of a vaccine-induced fight to give the viruses a good workout, but the infected person is really weak and their body just can't produce enough white blood cells to kill the virus entirely. Does the presence of the vaccine ensure that only viruses with a slight mutation emerge, instead of the dominant strain? 

Again, just thinking out loud (virtually), and definitely not a good argument against vaccination. 

 

 

My only personal reason to not get the vaccine is that the mRNA is experimental, the vaccines do real damage to some healthy people, the long-term effects are unknown, I don't want to sign a waiver to get vaccinated under those conditions, and C19 isn't strong enough to kill healthy humans yet. 

[Zeitgeist]

 

First off, being vaccinated does not increase the rate of mutation.  Mutation occurs when there's a flaw in replication.  The more viral load and the more the virus circulates among people, the greater the risk of mutation.   If our antibodies can fight the virus, in the vast majority of cases it will have nowhere to go and run its course.  The vaccine activates your antibodies in a safer way than catching Covid-19 without a vaccine.

Okay, the discussion has degenerated into a vax vs. anti-vax debate, and the data being cited on the anti-vax side is that many people who are double vaccinated are getting the virus.  Yes, they can still get Covid, but many of those who do are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms.  Of the small minority who get ill, very very few die.  Your chances of dying from Covid-19 are much smaller if you are vaccinated, so it's well worth getting.

Covid-19 isn't going away, probably ever.  We need to end restrictions and move on, but the fastest way to get there is by having a very high percentage of the population vaccinated.  Not everyone will be able to get the vaccine due to eligibility or health issues.  There are also plenty of anti-vaxers out there.  Governments will encourage or apply pressure on the population to get vaccinated, and some, like Quebec's or New York's, will use vaccine passports, mandatory vaccination, and other sticks to increase vaccination rates.  I don't think that's necessary, and I'm glad that Ontario isn't going that route.  However, the price of that personal discretion will likely be a higher hospitalization and death rate.  As long as our medical system can handle the load and the population accepts the consequences, that's a choice jurisdictions can make.  I do think that if a fourth wave starts to overwhelm hospitals, public pressure will mount for vaccine passports and mandatory vaccination.

I do think it's very important, now that the vast majority of eligible people have received at least one dose of vaccine, to end restrictions and shift to personal responsibility.  If we can't make that shift then we cannot return to "normal" and function as a society without having serious debt and non-Covid health problems.  It's untenable.  The Delta (Gamma, Phi, etc.) variants will spread.  The unvaccinated will be hardest hit.  There will be new mutations and new boosters will be made available to match them.  People will be hospitalized and die.  Unvaccinated and medically compromised people will have to take extra precautions and face a higher risk of hospitalization and death than the vaccinated.  That's it.  We take a risk every time we get in a car, take a flight, or cross the street.  We simply have to add Covid to that list, be as informed as possible about our and our dependents' level of risk, and we have to move on. 

I'd simply say to the unvaccinated and the parents of the unvaccinated that you will have to take additional precautions over the vaccinated.  It's better at this point for responsibility to rest with individuals and scrap government-mandated restrictions.  If we don't, expect to live under varying mandatory restrictions for the rest of your lives.  If we accept this level of government intervention on a permanent basis, it will be applied for other reasons for sure because the precedent is set. 

I'd like to live in a liberal-democracy rather than a totalitarian country.  I'd like for businesses to decide how to best handle their reopening and adjust according to what the market will support.  I think it's worth the risk, but ultimately the public will decide, and they will decide based on death and hospitalization rates, so get the vaccine to lower those rates and protect yourselves. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Infidel Dog]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Okay, the discussion has degenerated into a vax vs. anti-vax debate, and the data being cited on the anti-vax side is that many people who are double vaccinated are getting the virus.  Yes, they can still get Covid, but many of those who do are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms.  Of the small minority who get ill, very very few die.  Your chances of dying from Covid-19 are much smaller if you are vaccinated, so it's well worth doing.

 Glad you mentioned that. I've been meaning to ask one of you guys who are so certain the variant is only dangerous for the unvaccinated if you can give me a link to your data.

See because all I've seen so far, as far as evidence based claims are claims the variant isn't so dangerous as the original in general.

I'm with you on this below though. I've seen the rationale behind that.

Quote

Covid-19 isn't going away, probably ever.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Until (and unless) I see clear answers to:

What is the risk of being infected, in numbers, in an open space; and in a well-spaced indoor space (grocery store, etc) at the low level of epidemics (for example, below 1 case per 10,000 capita) and how does it compare to other accidental risks?

there will be no more interest nor attention to whatever moves and passes are performed by those authorities and for whatever reasons. Without honest and correct information there can be no intelligent decisions and no public trust. Obtaining those answers now, a year a half later from people paid outrageously by the public to perform effective management with real results, not ongoing shows and performances would be the absolute minimum not for restoration of trust but for reaffirming minimal standing as citizens in own country. Otherwise how would we be different from low peasants, general pueblo not worthy nor deserving any meaningful answers?

At the start of the pandemic, when the WHO's advice flew directly in the face of conventional wisdom and then turned out to be 100% wrong (with drastic consequences), I found it odd that our leftist leaders were so firmly in support of the WHO.

In Canada we let infected people fly in here from China and wander around for almost 2 months, then on the same day that we stopped that, Canadians couldn't walk outside in provincial parks. We went from lalala no big deal let's hug incoming passengers to "OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE IF WE DON'T STOP DOING EVERYTHING"! in one split second.

Some how Trump was the villain in all this, but he was the only politician in NA doing anything for over 90 days. All the leftists who were saying "Banning flights is racist! Ride the subway! Go hug people in big groups!" suddenly turned on a dime in March and then started acting like Trump did nothing. It was completely insane. 

Then when statistics started becoming available online, our leaders and MSM kept on trying to deny the stats and replace them with anecdotes. IE, the stats said that only very sick, elderly people were at risk but the politicians and the news kept saying that 'everyone' was at risk. Then they started coming out with stories about a young nurse in China, or now a 56 year old guy in England.... Why do we need to hear stories about specific people in other countries if 25,000 people here died? Shouldn't stories about people like that dying in Canada be common?

Then we had the ridiculous restrictions about walking outside in provincial parks, but suddenly when Pelosi wanted people to riot, covid didn't infect looters... MIRACULOUS! Kids (who don't get covid) couldn't play baseball, with 20 people on a 40,000 sq ft diamond, because that would spread covid, but somehow hundreds of people could loot a store with no risk....? Oh, and god forbid anyone step inside a church unless they were looting it.

At every stage the government and MSM inundated us with absolute bullshit and now they want us to sign a waiver and take the experimental mRN vaccines....? Yeah right, I trust them about as far as I can throw a 747.

[WestCanMan]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

the data being cited on the anti-vax side is that many people who are double vaccinated are getting the virus. 

In Massachusetts they're getting infected at the same rate us the unvaxxed

Quote

Yes, they can still get Covid, but many of those who do are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms. 

OMG, are we allowed to say that certain groups of people remain asymptomatic or get very mild symptoms now? Like, for example, unvaccinated people who are healthy?

[Infidel Dog]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

IOMG, are we allowed to say that certain groups of people remain asymptomatic or get very mild symptoms now? Like, for example, unvaccinated people who are healthy?

It's a Brave New world.

Who knows...perhaps some day we might even be allowed to mention on the larger social media apps that the group Argus and his crowd want to put in camps for the unvaccinated would include the previously infected who are now immune. 

[Infidel Dog]

Oh wait Zeitgeist...I found one for you. From Iceland:

Quote

Around 24 have had to be hospitalised in this wave, just over 1%. In previous waves, that figure was 4-5%. However, 2.4% of unvaccinated people that contract COVID-19 now are hospitalised.

https://www.icelandreview.com/society/covid-19-in-iceland-vaccination-has-not-led-to-herd-immunity-says-chief-epidemiologist/

But notice the figure for the hospitalized unvaccinated  is still less than what it was with the original Chi-Comm flu.

I'd still like to see some more numbers.

I heard one that the numbers they were using for the unvaccinated included those that had the single shot.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

In Massachusetts they're getting infected at the same rate us the unvaxxed

OMG, are we allowed to say that certain groups of people remain asymptomatic or get very mild symptoms now? Like, for example, unvaccinated people who are healthy?

Yes but the virus hits the healthy who are unvaccinated harder than the vaccinated.  Also keep in mind that some healthy people have died from Covid-19.  Vaccines are an added layer of protection that makes it easier for people to put away the masks.  It lowers the death rate and makes it easier for governments to lift restrictions.  I think that as time goes on and people see the level of safety of vaccination, and as public pressure mounts to remove restrictions, vaccines will become mandatory for all eligible ages unless there's a medical exemption.  I also think that the marketplace will weigh whether showing proof of vaccination is something worth requiring for certain kinds of venues.  I don't think it's practical except perhaps for international travel, working closely with multiple people, and a few other circumstances, but again, there will be businesses that require it and people will decide who to patronize.  Governments will have to try to read the will of the people in deciding where proof of vaccination is required.  I can see it being necessary in some workplaces, and those in those specific workplaces who choose not to get the jab or cannot for health reasons, will have to be masked up and don PPE.  

Edited August 7, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Oh wait Zeitgeist...I found one for you. From Iceland:

https://www.icelandreview.com/society/covid-19-in-iceland-vaccination-has-not-led-to-herd-immunity-says-chief-epidemiologist/

But notice the figure for the hospitalized unvaccinated  is still less than what it was with the original Chi-Comm flu.

I'd still like to see some more numbers.

But 1% hospitalized vaccinated is still a lot lower than 2.4% unvaccinated.  It's not a perfect situation and it never will be.  We are mitigating risk and learning to live with the disease because it's not going away.

[Infidel Dog]

It sounds impressive but it sounds like that might have been just 2 people and like I said sometimes doctors like this guy from Iceland sometimes include single shot vaccinations in with the unvaccinated stat.

After pro-lockdown, booster shot, Icelander doctor gave his talk he opened up the floor to questions.

Quote

“Can you give us information about how many people were vaccinated among those who have been hospitalised in this wave?” Þórólfur says around half of those hospitalised have been vaccinated. The two that have been placed in the ICU are unvaccinated. It’s not possible to draw broad conclusions from this data but vaccination appears to reduce serious illness generally.

I'd still like to see more numbers.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

This below also might be of some interest:

Quote

(CNN)Fully vaccinated people who get a Covid-19 breakthrough infection can transmit the virus, US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said Thursday.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

[Infidel Dog]

Something I don't think gets enough attention are therapeutics. Evidence keeps quietly appearing that they're more effective at controlling the effects of the disease than first claimed by people like Flip Flop Fauci and his crowd.

I've been noticing there are some who like to find and holler about any little spike in infections but the "Active Cases" stat on Worldometer graphs is never that scary. 

[myata]

43 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

It's a Brave New world.

Who knows...perhaps some day we might even be allowed to mention ...

Do you mean even perhaps a temporary suspension of the mandatory masking order between waves zz27 and zzw68 in the year 17 of the pandemics?!

[taxme]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:38 PM, WestCanMan said:

Worldwide, it seems like 1.4M people die a year from TB, which is comparable to the total number of covid deaths from 2020. 

Career politicians and rich folks who own TV stations in developed countries aren't smack-dab in the middle of the target demographic for TB deaths though, so it's not on the list of things to be fear-mongered. 

The WHO(worldhealthorganization). 

[taxme]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:51 PM, Infidel Dog said:

It's not over.

"

During an earnings call, Moderna seemed to admit that their COVID-19 vaccine only lasts for 6 months, adding that a third “booster” shot will “likely be necessary” due to the Delta variant, which experts have compared to hay fever or the common cold.

Moderna released a statement on Thursday claiming that their COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness “does not wane in the first 6 months after the second dose,” reported the New York Times. However, Moderna appeared to change their tune during an earnings call shortly after, claiming that booster shots would be necessary this fall to curb the Delta variant, which experts have previously compared to hay fever and the common cold, as National File reported."

 

 

As if big pharma does not make plenty of money already from drugs and vaccines. It runs into the hundreds of billions every year. Big pharma has to make more money to help meet their employee payrolls I guess. LOL. Booster shots will be needed for years to come. A pile of bullshit indeed. ?

[taxme]

23 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

They are certainly government-trusting fools compared to me, that’s for sure.

I always thought the government was responsible for the improving the economy and general welfare of the common weal.

Not, my ass.

The government has no interest in anyone's health or well being nor the economy. They have pretty much all become great liars, cheats and thieves and nothing more. They all need to be canned. ?

[taxme]

21 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Why you are inventing ridiculous statistics!!!!  You only discredit yourself with such lies and inflated figures.

The latest available statistics in America is 2018 for tuberculosis and shows only 542 deaths.

https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/statistics/tbtrends.htm

The WHO(worldhealthorganization)has reported these numbers. Not me. I could be wrong though with the number. Bad info. Just saying.

[Argus]

If you loved Delta, you'll love Lambda even more! Yaay, more variants on the way!

 

The lambda variant of the novel coronavirus, first identified in Peru, has been found in Japan for the first time, health ministry officials said Friday.

The variant was detected in a woman in her 30s at Haneda Airport who arrived from Peru on July 20, according to the ministry.

She tested positive for the coronavirus in a quarantine check at the airport, with no symptoms.

The virus was confirmed to be of the lambda variant in an analysis by the National Institute of Infectious Diseases.

According to the institute, the lambda variant was first detected in Peru in August last year and has been spreading in South America.

Compared with the conventional strain, the variant may be more infectious and have stronger resistance to vaccines, but its details are not known, the institute said.

Meanwhile, the delta variant is challenging the part of the world that’s been most successful in blunting the economic impact of COVID-19, with Asian countries that snuffed it out locking down again as the virus returns.

Just 12 months ago, the Asia-Pacific region’s rapid containment of COVID-19 made them the envy of the world as the virus ravaged the U.S. and Europe. Now, from Seoul to Sydney, Bangkok to Beijing, authorities are reimposing growth-sapping restrictions as low vaccination rates in many of those places leave their populations vulnerable.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/08/07/national/science-health/japan-lambda/

[-TSS-]

Delta is an Indian variant but instead of calling it an Indian virus they had to give it a name by some Greek alphabet just not to label the Indians and risk Indian shops to be smashed as was the case with the Chinese businesses a year ago.

[CITIZEN_2015]

33 minutes ago, taxme said:

The WHO(worldhealthorganization)has reported these numbers. Not me. I could be wrong though with the number. Bad info. Just saying.

No YOU reported it wrong as usual. The WHO reported 1.5 million deaths for the entire planet not just America.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but the virus hits the healthy who are unvaccinated harder than the vaccinated. 

Infidel Dog quoted the CDC, saying that 750 fully vaccinated people died of covid. That seems like a lot. 

Quote

Also keep in mind that some healthy people have died from Covid-19. 

Really? Whenever someone who's supposedly healthy dies in another country it's newsworthy, then we see their picture and they're old and obese. 

Just yesterday, posters here pasted a link to a 56 yr old who died of covid in England. If covid is known to kill healthy people then how is that newsworthy?

Quote

Vaccines are an added layer of protection that makes it easier for people to put away the masks.  It lowers the death rate and makes it easier for governments to lift restrictions.  I think that as time goes on and people see the level of safety of vaccination, and as public pressure mounts to remove restrictions, vaccines will become mandatory for all eligible ages unless there's a medical exemption. 

Yeah, the people who have been lying to us all along get to blame vaxxed deaths on the Delta Variant now. 

Ooh, the Delta variant. Shiny. Need a new vaxx for that, no doubt. 

When people are fully vaxxed, right up to the zeta and omega variants, will they still have the same infection rates as everyone else? 

Quote

I also think that the marketplace will weigh whether showing proof of vaccination is something worth requiring for certain kinds of venues.  I don't think it's practical except perhaps for international travel, working closely with multiple people, and a few other circumstances, but again, there will be businesses that require it and people will decide who to patronize.  Governments will have to try to read the will of the people in deciding where proof of vaccination is required.  I can see it being necessary in some workplaces, and those in those specific workplaces who choose not to get the jab or cannot for health reasons, will have to be masked up and don PPE.  

Is the vaxx bullshit?

For the past 1,000 years people have known enough to block people from entering their towns and countries when they were coming from places that had smallpox or plague outbreaks. Why did the WHO suddenly get that wrong? Did science suddenly decide that 'avoid it like the plague' was too racist for the modern world? 

Honestly, if you look at the way we handled covid here before March 16th, it really looks like the Liberals and the Democrats were doing everything that they could to get covid into NA. Do you remember who was saying "Ride the subway! Hug strangers in crowded areas! Covid travel bans are racist!" All leftists. 

Now those leftists who were either completely useless, abominably stupid, or downright evil at the beginning of covid are telling us all to get the vaxx or we'll be marginalized, but actual science is telling us that the vaxx might be more of a placebo than anything else. Now the blame "the shiny new Delta Variant..."