How should we make China pay?

[QuebecOverCanada]

China lied about the pandemic. China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda. The WHO even told the world there was no evidence that COVID-19 had a human-to-human transmission. China closed off its internal borders so the epidemic would stay inside Wuhan in continental China, but let international flights happen so other countries would be sick (If I fall, everyone falls too kind of machiavellian thought process).

China still lies about its real numbers. 80k infected in the world's most populous country, in the most densely populated parts of the world.

How should the West react to make China pay for what they've done?

[Shady]

The best idea that I’ve heard is cancelling a portion of debt held by China.

[Michael Hardner]

First of all, can we have a cite for the allegations in post #1.

Secondly, telling your creditors that you aren't honouring your debt is the kind of thing that has repercussions.  People should know that China holds a lot of cards in our relationship.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

How should the West react to make China pay for what they've done?

No truck nor trade.

[eyeball]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

First of all, can we have a cite for the allegations in post #1.

The arrest of Li Wenliang and other doctor's trying to warn of the outbreak is not an allegation.  If China refuses to compensate the world for its failing it's regime needs to be changed. The way to do that is to have no truck nor trade. China's people need to be motivated to change their government and if they can't get with the program then they're on their own.

Edited April 14, 2020 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

You form a united organization of democratic countries and then you all agree to punish using the same methods so that China can't lash out at any one country without a response from all.  Collective security.  Let's make China our b!tch.

[Rue]

2 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You form a united organization of democratic countries and then you all agree to punish using the same methods so that China can't lash out at any one country without a response from all.  Collective security.  Let's make China our b!tch.

That concept does not work. It's hard to find democratic countries let alone ones not compromised by their own corruption long enough to agree with other countries on anything other than how to share profit..certainly not moral responsibility. UN, NATO, OAS, etc., nuthin but bs. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

The arrest of Li Wenliang and other doctor's trying to warn of the outbreak is not an allegation.  If China refuses to compensate the world for its failing it's regime needs to be changed. The way to do that is to have no truck nor trade. China's people need to be motivated to change their government and if they can't get with the program then they're on their own.

". China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda"

[eyeball]

46 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

". China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda"

That sounds like fake news, a loophole generated by people to pretend they're taking a hard line with China while keeping the door open to selling them as much oil and other stuff as possible.

Are you using it as a loophole to not take a hard line? It seems to have looped completely around Li Wenliang in a manner that avoided touching him at all not to mention playing into the hands of people that have had a bone to pick with international organizations for....ever.

Edited April 14, 2020 by eyeball

[Boges]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You form a united organization of democratic countries and then you all agree to punish using the same methods so that China can't lash out at any one country without a response from all.  Collective security.  Let's make China our b!tch.

You mean like NATO? 

Or the G7 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Boges

[Right To Left]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

The arrest of Li Wenliang and other doctor's trying to warn of the outbreak is not an allegation.  If China refuses to compensate the world for its failing it's regime needs to be changed. The way to do that is to have no truck nor trade. China's people need to be motivated to change their government and if they can't get with the program then they're on their own.

That still does not justify what the OP and Trump are demanding: the looting of the Chinese economy to pay for the mistakes and deliberate misconduct of our leaders and business authorities, who are stealiing from the real economy to line their pockets...i.e. the Trump Bailout - 2.2 Trillion (with the promise of an extra 4 Trillion to guarantee banks and dodgy investments) is mostly going to Wall Street banks and major corporations like Boeing (which is already so far in debt it would be bankrupt without government support).

America had 1.5 million hospital beds before 1980/ less than one million today, with a much larger population! How is it China's fault that American hospitals were already at full capacity even prior to a pandemic? And therefore unable to withstand any medical emergency...let alone a major pandemic! 

And in the great capitalist 'efficiency' innovation - "Just In Time Inventory Control". Bad enough if penny-pinching - no inventories strategies were just applied to retail and manufacturing, but this principles of capitalism shit has been applied in US hospitals also! So, any major epidemic would spread like wildfire as soon as staff realized they didn't have enough PPE to keep themselves safe or stop the spread of the virus to others.

Then there's the great innovation "let's privatize our hospitals" cause like business and industry private enterprise makes everything run better and more efficient! 

So, nobody in Canada, even if they are dumb enough to be backing Conservatives today, should be buying in to Trump&Co.'s latest evil, ruthless and reckless attempt to shift blame from America's failures of the past 40 years that have just come to fruition!

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

1. That sounds like fake news, a loophole generated by people to pretend they're taking a hard line with China while keeping the door open to selling them as much oil and other stuff as possible.

2. Are you using it as a loophole to not take a hard line? It seems to have looped completely around Li Wenliang in a manner that avoided touching him at all not to mention playing into the hands of people that have had a bone to pick with international organizations for....ever.

1. Well it's something that you could prosecute, or react to in an international context.

2. Decoupling from China isn't going to change China, nor will we be able to change much about our own country.  

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

That still does not justify what the OP and Trump are demanding: the looting of the Chinese economy to pay for the mistakes and deliberate misconduct of our leaders and business authorities, who are stealiing from the real economy to line their pockets...

That's not what I'm justifying.  You saw what I wrote. I said no truck nor trade,  not loot China.

Quote

How is it China's fault that American hospitals were already at full capacity even prior to a pandemic? And therefore unable to withstand any medical emergency...let alone a major pandemic!

It's not China's fault and never said it was. What's at fault in China is that its leader and government put their interests ahead of everyone else. It's the responsibility of China's people to do something about that.  We're in a very similar boat as people in China which is why we're so unprepared.

This crisis is a result of humanity's inability to resolve ancient issues between it and it's governments.  This relationship needs to turned on its head and the only way to do that is physically and very deliberately destroy the capacity for secrecy that exists between the interests of our leaders and ours.  As I say over and over again, monitoring governments to an extent that would make Orwell blush appears to be the only way.

Trust me, the sort of people that write OP's like the one above or that subscribe to Trump have no interest whatsoever in jumping ship the way I'm suggesting.  Very very few people of any partisan or ideological stripe do.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well it's something that you could prosecute, or react to in an international context.

2. Decoupling from China isn't going to change China, nor will we be able to change much about our own country.  

See you on the other side of the interregnum if that's the case. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

See you on the other side of the interregnum if that's the case. 

I don't doubt your aims, just the effectiveness of the approach.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't doubt your aims, just the effectiveness of the approach.

It real simple.

Except I'm Scottish but you should catch my drift.

Edited April 14, 2020 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's the responsibility of China's people to do something about that.

I don't see how you think they have a chance. They are already held at the end of a gun. The government uses the military against its own people. Amy slightest uprising, any expression of criticism is immediately hammered down flat. As in flat like your head.

Quote

This crisis is a result of humanity's inability to resolve ancient issues between it and it's governments.  This relationship needs to turned on its head and the only way to do that is physically and very deliberately destroy the capacity for secrecy that exists between the interests of our leaders and ours.  As I say over and over again, monitoring governments to an extent that would make Orwell blush appears to be the only way.

You have to give more credit to the insidious nature of the human beast. Our criminal mind is so much smarter than our law-abiding mind. Plus more sneaky and ruthless. And also, entropy increaseth in all things naturally, which means good men need do nothing.

This inane suggestion of yours looks to me like it will decay into an utter shyte-hole communist police state in no time flat. Not surprised you would like that, however.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

So, nobody in Canada, even if they are dumb enough to be backing Conservatives today, should be buying in to Trump&Co.'s latest evil, ruthless and reckless attempt to shift blame from America's failures of the past 40 years that have just come to fruition!

 

Canada already did years ago....having fewer hospital beds per capita than the United States:

 

Quote

Canada has 1.95 acute care hospital beds per 1,000 people, fewer than any other OECD country but Mexico. (Italy, which has been overwhelmed by this coronavirus, has 34 percent more beds per capita than we do: 2.62 per 1,000 people.) Nationwide, the occupancy rate for Canada’s hospital beds is over 90 percent. (To put that number into perspective, the occupancy rate for US hospital beds is 64 percent.)

https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/march-2020/coronavirus-is-about-to-reveal-how-fragile-our-health-system-is/

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Trust me, the sort of people that write OP's like the one above or that subscribe to Trump have no interest whatsoever in jumping ship the way I'm suggesting.  Very very few people of any partisan or ideological stripe do.

 

Trust me, contempt for Trump will not save you from your own choices made in Canada.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

". China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda"

I don't know if there's any definite proof of that, but China has been gaining influence in the WHO and been giving more money to them.  Google "China WHO" and click on the "news" tab on google and you'll get what you're looking for.  For some reason, the head of the WHO has been covering for the China gov and defending them as "transparent".  Politics seems to have entered the WHO, and it has cost lives.

Canada took WHO advice, advice that was wrong.  Don't limit travel it will do nothing, masks aren't effective etc.  They've reversed a lot of this and now say the opposite.  It's been a sh!t show and someone should be accountable for the incompetence because people are dead because of it.  It's really easy for a political organization to become complacent and corrupt when there's no accountability or competition.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. I don't know if there's any definite proof of that,

2. but China has been gaining influence in the WHO and been giving more money to them. 

1. Ok.
2. It's hard to deny that donating to something gives you more influence with the organization.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok.
2. It's hard to deny that donating to something gives you more influence with the organization.

2. And that's a big problem, especially with a totalitarian government with no ethics.  The WHO shouldn't be political, it should be independent and non-political.

I've always thought the Harper gov were just a bunch of arses when they shunned the UN continuously.  Now I'm starting to think that maybe there was something to that.  Maybe our current gov shouldn't be flying around the world kissing the arses of dictatorships to get a spot on the UNSC.  Exactly what kind of arse kissing have we had to engage in? What kind of concessions and "favours" have these regimes been asking Canada in return for their vote?  Given the SNC-Lavalin affair, how far would Canada sell out its ideals for a seat?

The legitimacy of the UN project continues to fray, it's a shame.  Its idealism has inevitably succumbed to real-world politics.  Give disgusting governments a seat at the table and they will behave like disgusting governments.

[QuebecOverCanada]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

". China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda"

The WHO officials lied about the situation in Wuhan. The WHO stated at first that COVID-19 could not spread between humans. The WHO refused to answer a journalist's question about the role for Taiwan in the WHO and its success for combating the coronavirus epidemic.

[-1=e^ipi]

Yes, the WHO totally isn't overly controlled by the Communist Party of China. Not with the head of the WHO who is openly a communist, not with their blind repetition of CCP talking points during the beginning of the corona virus issue. Nor with interviews like the one below. Certainly, it's not like Taiwan was trying to warn other countries of human-to-human transition of COVID-19 back in December, but the denial of their WHO membership due to the one China policy prevented other countries from being property warned.

 

[QuebecOverCanada]

11 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Yes, the WHO totally isn't overly controlled by the Communist Party of China. Not with the head of the WHO who is openly a communist, not with their blind repetition of CCP talking points during the beginning of the corona virus issue. Nor with interviews like the one below. Certainly, it's not like Taiwan was trying to warn other countries of human-to-human transition of COVID-19 back in December, but the denial of their WHO membership due to the one China policy prevented other countries from being property warned.