Doug Ford and Covid 19

[Boges]

16 hours ago, myata said:

Opened vaccinations to all over 18 to run out of appointments in 3 hours (CBC). What is it? Didn't know? Oh so new? Why "opening" service if it cannot be provided? Is it the third world already, or only a caricature of what not to do in a national emergency?

Cite? 

We're receiving vaccine supply at an accelerated pace. These appointments are weeks out. 

[myata]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Cite?

CBC news yesterday, Internet at fingertips. "Opening" to run out of critical supply in hours is not called opening in any normal language. But it can be called a ridiculous caricature of competent management.

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

CBC news yesterday, Internet at fingertips. "Opening" to run out of critical supply in hours is not called opening in any normal language. But it can be called a ridiculous caricature of competent management.

This speaks to the demand. We clearly aren't running out of supply. We're getting 4.5 million doses this week. 

[myata]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

This speaks to the demand.

Of course, to estimate the demand and make sure the supply is available is someone else's job. Hello, who else is there? Still oh so new.

Edited May 20, 2021 by myata

[Shady]

Ford’s re-opening plan is ridiculous.  With what will be close to 65% of adults vaccinated with at least one dose, the only things that will be open is outdoor dining on a limited basis and outdoor recreation.

[Shady]

This is not science, it’s fear.

[myata]

4 hours ago, Shady said:

This is not science, it’s fear.

And a natural product of realization of one's incapacity and ignorance. If not via reason and effective action what remains? Knock, jump, clap, turn around and hope it will keep away.

[Boges]

I really hope this is them hedging their bets. Like with an overly conservative vaccination timeline that kept getting revised as supply came in. 

The rationale is that even at 60% adults, which we'll achieve this week, it takes 2 or 3 weeks for people vaccinated this week to have appropriate protection. So they're extended the lockdown until then. So there is science behind it. 

I got my vaccine 3+ weeks ago, I'm only now getting full protection. 

I would suggest if numbers drop to below 1,000 by early June, they'll happily move this timeline up. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Boges

[myata]

The problem is that besides lockdowns and praying for the cases to go the right way pretty much nothing was learned in over a year (and twenty years before) on effective management of the epidemics without significant disruption to the society. Like nothing at all, nada. It's good that there are vaccinations but this is again, one basket. Should there be any surprises Heavens forbid we'll be right back to square one. Look-it's-all-oh-so-new! and all over.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

The problem is that besides lockdowns and praying for the cases to go the right way pretty much nothing was learned in over a year (and twenty years before) on effective management of the epidemics without significant disruption to the society. Like nothing at all, nada. It's good that there are vaccinations but this is again, one basket. Should there be any surprises Heavens forbid we'll be right back to square one. Look-it's-all-oh-so-new! and all over.

This problem relates directly to the problem of Doug Ford, in a way. For another thing we learned during covid is, it's not good to be a democracy in emergencies. 

 

 

[OftenWrong]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:40 AM, Boges said:

I really hope this is them hedging their bets. Like with an overly conservative

You really are a hopeful fellow. Keep the faith. Me, I've transitioned to acceptance.

Maybe their hedging their bets, would like to see that crazy graph of projected deaths that went off-scale and compare it to reality. Oh well we've moved past that one. But hey, hedge yer bets, hedge yer bets.

Have you been outside lately? What are you seeing? I'm seeing people everywhere doing anything. Generally ignoring the protocols. Mask on before you go in? Yep. It's just an annoyance, we all know it's pointless now but hey. Keep on hedging, keep in hedging...

Other thing is why do kids have to all stay home, everywhere in the province? Let's be realistic here, the kids are staying in their neighbourhoods especially in the many small towns and if the region has little to no virus activity, this is merely punitive. These are overly-prescriptive public health measures. At a time when there is a real mental health crisis for children being declared.

Now repeat after me: "Government is great, government is good, thank you government for our fud."

 

[myata]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

This problem relates directly to the problem of Doug Ford, in a way. For another thing we learned during covid is, it's not good to be a democracy in emergencies. 

Any number of democracies managed to achieve this though, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Finland, Norway all have much better results with fewer overall and more focused restrictive measures. So not sure it's about democracy per se, maybe effectiveness, agility and efficiency in the public service?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Any number of democracies managed to achieve this though, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Finland, Norway all have much better results with fewer overall and more focused restrictive measures. So not sure it's about democracy per se, maybe effectiveness, agility and efficiency in the public service?

At what point do they become undemocratic then? Thats essentially how they did it.

If their society had any opposing voices, they would silenced those voices.

A sense of isolation (island, remote area) and level of national pride, coupled with a little xenophobia also helps to “grease the covid wheels”.  ?

 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

At what point do they become undemocratic then? Thats essentially how they did it.

If their society had any opposing voices, they would silenced those voices.

Why the belief that opposing voices are entitled to be heard, once their ideas are rejected by the majority?   Should people who sincerely believe that smoking isn't really bad for you, that vaccines cause autism, that kids benefit from loving sexual relationships with adults all be allowed to spread those beliefs without hindrance, as long as they can find experts to support their claims?  Shouldn't there come a time that voices promoting harmful practices, as determined by a majority of experts, be silenced?  

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Why the belief that opposing voices are entitled to be heard, once their ideas are rejected by the majority?   Should people who sincerely believe that smoking isn't really bad for you, that vaccines cause autism, that kids benefit from loving sexual relationships with adults all be allowed to spread those beliefs without hindrance, as long as they can find experts to support their claims?  Shouldn't there come a time that voices promoting harmful practices, as determined by a majority of experts, be silenced?  

Those are not the voices Im talking about. I mean real doctors and immunologists, and people concerned with child welfare.

As usual you are way off kilter in your baseless assumptions. What you think the problem is, aint.

[myata]

16 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

At what point do they become undemocratic then? Thats essentially how they did it.

If their society had any opposing voices, they would silenced those voices.

A sense of isolation (island, remote area) and level of national pride, coupled with a little xenophobia also helps to “grease the covid wheels”.  

 

Here's how I see it. In a country, even when its democratic for a complex issue it can be virtually impossible to find a solution that satisfies everybody. If it's a real problem that cannot be chatted and delayed forever a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Where and how? That is the test of democracy. I think that in the minimum a democratic solution must be effective; and the majority must understand and support it.

Note that in many of those countries there weren't months long quarantines, and in New Zealand there were at this time large open air festivals, we almost forget the notion. Those aren't the same quarantines, the word is the same meaning quite different they last two to four weeks maximum and they work. The population sees that they work that gyms and restaurants (and even clubs) are open most of the time and they support it. They support not because of expert chit-chat, not because someone important cries and shouts and appeals but because it works for them. That is the difference. And it does not seem like we understand it here.

[taxme]

On 5/17/2021 at 6:29 AM, Boges said:

Politics are most certainly entering the debate about Ontario's COVID-19 reaction. 

We're looking at a 2 month Lockdown. That's horrific for businesses. But people are adapting. Restaurants have pivoted their business models and people are making it work and enjoying the improved weather. 

What I can't get over is the people who screamed that we needed a strict lockdown are now advocating for recreational facilities and golf to be allowed to open. 

This is just a game now. The guidelines say you shouldn't be socializing with people outside your household, EVEN in an outdoor setting.  Who's playing Golf with only people in their own homes!?!??!

I can't get a haircut, I can't go to the Hardware store, I can't eat on a patio. But Golf and Tennis Courts are the priority? 

If Public Health officials want Golf courts to open, I think I can safely ignore your guidelines about not seeing family and friends in outdoor setting. At least DoFo is being consistent about this, if we're supposed to stay home, then you shouldn't be playing Golf. 

I pray the vaccination numbers see a significant drop in cases in the coming week. We'll have overtaken the US, per capita, in first dose vaccinations this week. 

This Convid hoax has always been a globalist hoax of a game from the very beginning. Sadly, our dear comrade leader politicians decided that they would go along with this farce, and then gave themselves dictatorial power and control over we the sheeple. 

We are being told that it is very unlikely that anyone can catch Covid outdoors in the fresh air. Then there should not be any Covid restrictions when it comes to doing anything outdoors. The forced mask wearing has always been just about control and submission. Without the forcing of masks, I can guarantee you that this Covid bull shit would be gone by tomorrow. Masks is what is keeping us from going back to our old normal life once again. FREE THE FACE. ABOLISH THE CLOWN MASK. Works for me. 

[myata]

Funny activity in the neighborhood park. Aliens? A few weeks back in the morning, signs appeared apparently out of nowhere: "outdoor mask recommended." Some weeks later, disappeared just as silently. Now yesterday on a walk found another trace: "mask mandatory within 5m of park amenities". What is a park amenity? Is the park a park amenity? Aliens know.

Who does that, at night? How do they do it? Why do they do it? Who's paying them for doing that? The world is full of mystery. Life is exciting!

[Boges]

10 hours ago, myata said:

Funny activity in the neighborhood park. Aliens? A few weeks back in the morning, signs appeared apparently out of nowhere: "outdoor mask recommended." Some weeks later, disappeared just as silently. Now yesterday on a walk found another trace: "mask mandatory within 5m of park amenities". What is a park amenity? Is the park a park amenity? Aliens know.

Who does that, at night? How do they do it? Why do they do it? Who's paying them for doing that? The world is full of mystery. Life is exciting!

Where do you live? That's crazy. 

One thing that's been somewhat refreshing about Canada's approach is that wearing masks outdoors has never been something enforced particularly vigourously. 

[myata]

16 minutes ago, Boges said:

Where do you live? That's crazy.

I'm just as puzzled. Raccoons another possibility, they are very smart and handy too.

[Boges]

2 straight days with around 1,100 new cases. If this trend continues the pandemic will be well in-hand weeks before the provinces "re-opening" plan, and even then it'll take 6-weeks to further re-open. 

If the numbers continue to drop at this rate, we better see some more broad opening before June 14th. 

[myata]

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

If the numbers continue to drop at this rate, we better see some more broad opening before June 14th. 

Five months into (Dec. 24, 2020) with "reopening" somewhere in the foggy (but cautiously near) future. Does it ( "the reopening") even exist anymore? What did look like, mama?

The donkey had a stick with a carrot dangling before its eyes attached to its back for an incentive to trudge on, optimistically. With neither entry ("look, the models!!!") nor exit criteria understood and explained after a full year of the epidemics (and twenty past SARS), can be a pretty good analogy.

Edited May 26, 2021 by myata

[Boges]

1 minute ago, myata said:

Five months into (Dec. 24, 2020) with "reopening" somewhere in the foggy (but cautiously near) future. Does it ( "the reopening") even exist anymore? What did look like, mama?

Right now all personal care is closed and could be closed until July. That needs to change. People are looking for black market haircuts and pedicures. 

At the very minimum outdoor dining needs to start up again. It's beyond depressing seeing all these renovated patios stay empty. Modest indoor dining can come later. 

Non-Essential Retail needs to re-open. You can't buy socks right now, unless you buy it online and pick it up in a parking lot. 

What's more irksome is the messaging of what you "can" and "can't" do. Unless police are willing to enforce outdoor gatherings that don't include massive parties. They can, quite frankly, STFU about what people can and can't do. 

Especially if those people have been vaccinated. 

 

[myata]

38 minutes ago, Boges said:

Right now all personal care is closed and could be closed until July. That needs to change. People are looking for black market haircuts and pedicures. 

At the very minimum outdoor dining needs to start up again. It's beyond depressing seeing all these renovated patios stay empty. Modest indoor dining can come later. 

Non-Essential Retail needs to re-open. You can't buy socks right now, unless you buy it online and pick it up in a parking lot. 

What's more irksome is the messaging of what you "can" and "can't" do. Unless police are willing to enforce outdoor gatherings that don't include massive parties. They can, quite frankly, STFU about what people can and can't do. 

Especially if those people have been vaccinated. 

 

The bureaucracy has no incentive, none whatsoever to take into account common sense, or even the reality itself. Five months, way to go things beginning to turn maybe next month. Where, when was the line it went from unlikely to ridiculous? Did we even notice?

[Boges]

1 hour ago, myata said:

The bureaucracy has no incentive, none whatsoever to take into account common sense, or even the reality itself. Five months, way to go things beginning to turn maybe next month. Where, when was the line it went from unlikely to ridiculous? Did we even notice?

Well in Toronto this must seem like 6 months of pure COVID-19 hell. But other parts of the Province have lived with COVID-19 restrictions and relative freedom. 

Compliance will not last much longer. People are getting vaccinated. They can't get their second dose yet, so moving the goalposts to that point will only cause outrage and mistrust in the entire system.