Should Canada Retaliate Against China

[Army Guy]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:02 AM, Iceni warrior said:

Which would collapse the world's economy quicker than the black death.

Every Chinese product sold in the west is making money for the importers and retailers and saving money for the hard pressed consumers who choose to buy it.

Besides, if you did stop buying Chinese goods production would simply move to the next cheap labour nation along the line.

The only way to compete with cheap labour nations for productivity is to lower your own wages or automate, neither of which is going to help Joe Bloggs struggling to pay his mortgage and put food on the table.

Having cheap labor is only part of the issue, China is also buying up everything and anything in regards to business, natural resources, infra structure across the globe...and what they can not buy they are loaning the funds to make it all happen. Australia is now in the process of restricting Chinese investment, and Chinese products as they are finding most of there resources and major companies are actually owned and operated by the Chinese.

Not many cheap labor nations have all that, with exception of China...Why has it not happened already ? China has a monopoly of sorts only it's a global one, so why not India, or any country with a excessive labor force willing to work for peanuts...

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

In the past week, it all most appears that China would be a more reliable ally than the US...at least until November. They are at least delivering on medical supplies rather than the US ripping off their "allies" like Germany by stealing shipments of medical supplies. 

This is what happens to nations that are in crises, it's human nature to protect your own first...your anger should be directed at our government for not planning or preparing well enough... 

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm sad.  It's been over two weeks and I haven't heard back... oh well...

The US is still a better friend than China but we're probably a better match with Europe right now.

Lots of rumbling in the European union right now, with Italy at the head of it, as a few European countries have also shut down exports of medical supplies and equipment to them....keeping them for themselves…. This is what happens when you drain the swamp, in regards to nations, it's everyone for themselves.... once they have satisfied local demand then we will see who they offer the surplus to, and for how much, thats when we are going to see who is an allied and who is a friend of convenience..  

[Argus]

On 3/19/2020 at 7:02 AM, Iceni warrior said:

Besides, if you did stop buying Chinese goods production would simply move to the next cheap labour nation along the line.

Which would be a good thing for the world. Anyway, there are lots of places with cheaper labour than China. Mexico, for one. We should have included in the NAFTA negotiations language to encourage companies with manufacturing in China to bring them to Mexico for better advantage. Unlike China, Mexico actually buys a lot of stuff from the world, not just raw resources and luxuries for its elites. They're also not trying to take over the world. They'd make a far better trading partner.

 

[ironstone]

I do believe we should take action against China but in a very measured way. China,more than any other foreign country,seeks to undermine or exert more control over every other country they deal with. Their tactics are very aggressive and one-sided. China already has an enormous amount of influence in Canada especially with the Liberals. As you already know,our Prime Minister had publicly admitted how much he admires their dictatorship. We are even discouraged from mentioning  that Covid 19 ,like others before it, comes from China! We certainly can't dare to offend China now can we?

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2020-01-07/chinas-unfair-trade-practices-hurt-global-innovation-report-says

https://money.cnn.com/2016/07/12/news/economy/china-trade-donald-trump/index.html

https://globalnews.ca/news/5804742/chinese-influence-canada/

It would be the time to start demanding  that China engage in fair trade practices with the world, and failing that, we start to do business elsewhere. We also need to do more to stop their practice of industrial espionage and intellectual property theft.

I wish I could be more optimistic that relations with China will change for the better.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

This is what happens to nations that are in crises, it's human nature to protect your own first...your anger should be directed at our government for not planning or preparing well enough... 

I'm not angry. (Now that I've had my coffee.) I can understand President Trump's actions as well as the Canadian Government's actions. The Canadian Government reacted as well as most and even better than some. It is important that we include the Provincial Governments in this. The collegial team effort involving local, Provincial and Federal Governments has earned our respect. The medical equipment shortage can be mitigated by us. If we stay home, wash our hands and keep our distance, we will give the country time to make up the shortfall.

It is also important to maintain the production of medical supplies once our crisis has passed because the pandemic will be moving into Africa in the coming months and they will definitely need all the help we can give them.

[Queenmandy85]

The reason there was an immediate lack of action in China is two fold. First, they had no way of knowing what they were dealing with. Second, a major shortcoming in their system is the response by senior officals to bad news from junior officals. When you are a local official and a plague breaks out, you know clearly that if you report it, you will be punished. If you shut down the wet market that provides your boss with a money-making side-line, you will be punished. This is true, not only in China but in Russia, the US, Canada (SNC), and Boeing. The first rule of management is to shoot the messenger. It is a rare and extraordinary leader to receive bad news gracefully.

As for China being fascist, there are a lot of nasty governments that we deal with. The most successful Prime Minister in the history of the British Empire / Commonwealth sat down for a conversation with Hitler in 1937. He later wrote in his diary that Hitler was the "Joan of Arc of Germany." (William Lyon "Rex" MacKenzie King. Prime Minister of Canada)

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The reason there was an immediate lack of action in China is two fold. First, they had no way of knowing what they were dealing with. Second, a major shortcoming in their system is the response by senior officals to bad news from junior officals. When you are a local official and a plague breaks out, you know clearly that if you report it, you will be punished. If you shut down the wet market that provides your boss with a money-making side-line, you will be punished. This is true, not only in China but in Russia, the US, Canada (SNC), and Boeing. The first rule of management is to shoot the messenger. It is a rare and extraordinary leader to receive bad news gracefully.

I think the consequences of the 2nd shortcoming you mention are so dire that this deliberate attempt to squelch transparency should be considered a crime against humanity.

COVID-19's sneakiest aspect is its ability to exploit our species greatest failing, our inability to control our sneaky governments.

[Queenmandy85]

It's not just our governments that are sneaky. It is human nature to try and avoid blame and punishment. It takes an act of will to stand up and say "I screwed up."

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It's not just our governments that are sneaky. It is human nature to try and avoid blame and punishment. It takes an act of will to stand up and say "I screwed up."

It also seems to be in human beings nature to apologize for their governments failings.  Looks like it's an even bigger act of will to say we screwed up.

It's also our nature to change our own nature and not just be pawns to our baser selves.  It's up to us to demand more robust institutions of accountability. They're not just going to happen on their own.

[TyroneM]

Cortez openly asks for Wuhan virus reparations from European-Americans to non-European-Americans.

Why not hold the Chinese responsible?

Germany is still paying Holocaust reparations.

Why don't governments sue China on the same level?

China owes Trudeau on a personal level. They infected his wife.

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I'm not angry. (Now that I've had my coffee.) I can understand President Trump's actions as well as the Canadian Government's actions. The Canadian Government reacted as well as most and even better than some. It is important that we include the Provincial Governments in this. The collegial team effort involving local, Provincial and Federal Governments has earned our respect. The medical equipment shortage can be mitigated by us. If we stay home, wash our hands and keep our distance, we will give the country time to make up the shortfall.

It is also important to maintain the production of medical supplies once our crisis has passed because the pandemic will be moving into Africa in the coming months and they will definitely need all the help we can give them.

I might have chosen the wrong word, instead I should have used "concern", that being said we pay these guys and girls a lot of money to be able to plan and coordinate not only our day to day running of the country, but also to plan for future events such as this, we also have a entire dept. that looks after all of this "emergency preparedness" at the federal level and I'm pretty sure each provincial government has a similar one as well. Someone dropped the ball and this is only one aspect of this crises. And it is not just the liberal government who should be held accountable the cons hold some responsibility as well in not being prepared. Yes all levels of government deserve some thanks, but I hope we are recording all our mistakes, and come up with better solutions. Such as the confusing comments coming out of our Health dept , about no need for masks, then we should be wearing masks, and many more. Other depts. not closing down the border fast enough, other half measures such as we locked up  those on boats, but not planes trains or automobiles coming in to the country.....they were advised to stay at home for 14 days...

[Rue]

9 hours ago, TyroneM said:

Cortez openly asks for Wuhan virus reparations from European-Americans to non-European-Americans.

Why not hold the Chinese responsible?

Germany is still paying Holocaust reparations.

Why don't governments sue China on the same level?

China owes Trudeau on a personal level. They infected his wife.

If people were able to sue the Chinese government we would also have to apportion part of the blame to many others for the same legal reason we could hold China responsible. In tort law to sue for damages you must prove cause and effect...you also have to show the cause and effect could have been predicted and prevented. Easier said than done.

So to do that would be very difficult. Also suing a government that does not consent to being sued means you have to sue it in your own court without it being present. If you proceed with a trial " in absentia ", I.e. with that government not present China will simply ignore the court's jurisdiction or right to sue.

So then you would have to seize Chinese money or assets outside China to try collect on any judgement which would cause retaliation by China seizing assets of foreigners in its country and calling in all money owed to it from all governments.

Its complicated. Chinese citizens now know their government covered up and will not have any recourse.  Many governments did or failed to react quickly enough like China as well.

What will need to happen is creating protocols as we were supposed  to after Sars so this does not repeat and preventing the import of Chinese wet market products...as consumers we should boycott such goods as well because Chinacwill not close down wet markets where these viruses originate.

Also if that is your picture I like your hair. I am jealous.  I am a bald old man. I want your hair. Have a nice day. 

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, Rue said:

Its complicated. Chinese citizens now know their government covered up and will not have any recourse.  Many governments did or failed to react quickly enough like China as well.

And so we come to a point where placing embargoes will have an impact by compelling Chinese people to do something about getting their governance in order.  We could be setting an example by doing the same thing.  Our governments failure is our own because we allow them to conduct their business in secret. 

Outlaw in-camera lobbying.  It's not complicated at all.

[bush_cheney2004]

On 4/6/2020 at 10:26 AM, eyeball said:

Outlaw in-camera lobbying.  It's not complicated at all.

 

Unconstitutional...not going to happen.   Very complicated.

Outlaw body bags  instead.....

 

Report: Wuhan Funeral Homes Burned Coronavirus Victims Alive

 

 

[Tdot]

On March 13, 2020 at 8:44 PM, ProudConservative said:

Go head an express your feelings towards China. Should we trade with them, or should we put economic sanctions on them?

Are you willing to give up your cheap stuff to stick it to the Chinese?

Are you in for some economic retaliation? Should Canada join the world, and bring down China's economy?

Are you willing to give up your cheap electronics and support Canadian jobs?

Great thread theme.

Trump set the tempo, last year, when he rose up against the Chinese GOVT with his trade war.........So it's time for other nations to increase their, courage, and copy Donald Trump's fearlessness.

[Shady]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:02 AM, Rue said:

If people were able to sue the Chinese government we would also have to apportion part of the blame to many others for the same legal reason we could hold China responsible. In tort law to sue for damages you must prove cause and effect...you also have to show the cause and effect could have been predicted and prevented. Easier said than done.

So to do that would be very difficult. Also suing a government that does not consent to being sued means you have to sue it in your own court without it being present. If you proceed with a trial " in absentia ", I.e. with that government not present China will simply ignore the court's jurisdiction or right to sue.

So then you would have to seize Chinese money or assets outside China to try collect on any judgement which would cause retaliation by China seizing assets of foreigners in its country and calling in all money owed to it from all governments.

Its complicated. Chinese citizens now know their government covered up and will not have any recourse.  Many governments did or failed to react quickly enough like China as well.

What will need to happen is creating protocols as we were supposed  to after Sars so this does not repeat and preventing the import of Chinese wet market products...as consumers we should boycott such goods as well because Chinacwill not close down wet markets where these viruses originate.

Also if that is your picture I like your hair. I am jealous.  I am a bald old man. I want your hair. Have a nice day. 

It’s actually not that complicated.  Countries that have outstanding debt held by China could band together and cancel a portion of their debt as a result of China’s irresponsible actions.

 

[Rue]

On 4/5/2020 at 11:47 AM, Army Guy said:

This is what happens to nations that are in crises, it's human nature to protect your own first...your anger should be directed at our government for not planning or preparing well 

38 minutes ago, Shady said:

It’s actually not that complicated.  Countries that have outstanding debt held by China could band together and cancel a portion of their debt as a result of China’s irresponsible actions.

 

We have always as well had the power as consumers to refrain from

buying g certain products.  Maybe we need to take that power seriously.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rue

[PIK]

People have become infected with cheap stuff. Most of the cheap stuff we don't need and people buy it, use it once, throw it in a drawer and a yr later into the dump. Yes we need to go after china big time. The people of china need to get rid of these old commies and get a new young progressive gov installed. And all dictators in the world need to be dealt with severely. We need to end this open migration  and people need thier countries back. This is the time to get this planet back on track. 

[Michael Hardner]

55 minutes ago, PIK said:

1. People have become infected with cheap stuff. Most of the cheap stuff we don't need and people buy it, use it once, throw it in a drawer and a yr later into the dump.

2. Yes we need to go after china big time. The people of china need to get rid of these old commies and get a new young progressive gov installed.

3. And all dictators in the world need to be dealt with severely.

4. We need to end this open migration  and people need thier countries back. This is the time to get this planet back on track. 

1. Right, but not.. TVs clothing, phones, car parts.  'Made in China' isn't just things that you find at Dollarama
2. We can't even get rid of our worst governments and we have elections.  Trump tried to after China 'big time' and he made some headway.  I won't argue zero-sum terms like won/lost but there wasn't anything like a break with China.  That's not me disparaging Trump, that's me pointing out that China and the West are embedded in each others' economies.
3. We don't do that in the West and we shore up dictators who are friends with us.  It's a good thing to have a anti-despot policy but ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
4. If you are talking about the planet, she sees all of us as an enemy so we should unite - either to give her what she needs, or defeat her and all move to Mars.