The purpose or logic behind mass shootings.

[Argus]

I struggle to find any sort of logic in them. Except for the Muslims, of course. There IS a consistent logic with that because their religion says that if they die fighting the unbeliever in a holy war they go to heaven and are richly rewarded. No matter how stupid you might think that is they believe it, so there's a consistent logic behind killing people.

There's no logic behind what the guy in Texas did. Killing a dozen, or two or three dozen, or two or three hundred Hispanics is not going to accomplish anything in the way of stopping Hispanic immigration, legal and illegal, nor going to make even the slightest dent in the Hispanic population of El Paso, which approaches 90%. And it will effectively end his life. So what's the point?

I'm not even discussing the morality. Some people are immoral and lack all empathy for others. That's a known fact. I'm talking about the rationality - which does not appear to exist. Even if you want to kill people, being an immoral sadist or something, there are ways of doing it that don't end your life. All humans are built with an instinct for self-preservation. Going against that is not rational unless you think your life is shit to begin with, essentially worth nothing. So we have to figure that as a starting point.

But even there, even if your life is shit, there are rational things to do to change it, even if drastic (because what's more drastic than ending it). And these characters don't go in for that.

They're almost always young, white males who do not appear to be fully integrated into society. They don't have girlfriends, decent jobs, prospects, or much in the way of friends. And they all seem to be pretty computer literate. Angry at the world, it seems to me they just say "F*k it" and go kill people so they can "go out in a blaze of glory". They've likely played a lot of video games and this is, to some extent, bringing that to life.

What I don't understand is why this happens mostly in the US. Yes, guns are easily available. But they're not that hard to get here, either. If you have no history of psychological problems or a criminal record, you can go through the courses and get your license. Then you can buy an AR-15 if that's what you want. So how come almost nobody ever does that? I have not seen or heard of anyone going on a mass shooting spree even remotely like what happens with dreary regularity down south with a legally obtained firearm.Is it just the delay? The time it takes to go through the process? Or is there something more about the US cultural background which encourages this? And if there is, why did it not exist back in the 1950s or 1960s?

[taxme]

30 minutes ago, Argus said:

I struggle to find any sort of logic in them. Except for the Muslims, of course. There IS a consistent logic with that because their religion says that if they die fighting the unbeliever in a holy war they go to heaven and are richly rewarded. No matter how stupid you might think that is they believe it, so there's a consistent logic behind killing people.

There's no logic behind what the guy in Texas did. Killing a dozen, or two or three dozen, or two or three hundred Hispanics is not going to accomplish anything in the way of stopping Hispanic immigration, legal and illegal, nor going to make even the slightest dent in the Hispanic population of El Paso, which approaches 90%. And it will effectively end his life. So what's the point?

I'm not even discussing the morality. Some people are immoral and lack all empathy for others. That's a known fact. I'm talking about the rationality - which does not appear to exist. Even if you want to kill people, being an immoral sadist or something, there are ways of doing it that don't end your life. All humans are built with an instinct for self-preservation. Going against that is not rational unless you think your life is shit to begin with, essentially worth nothing. So we have to figure that as a starting point.

But even there, even if your life is shit, there are rational things to do to change it, even if drastic (because what's more drastic than ending it). And these characters don't go in for that.

They're almost always young, white males who do not appear to be fully integrated into society. They don't have girlfriends, decent jobs, prospects, or much in the way of friends. And they all seem to be pretty computer literate. Angry at the world, it seems to me they just say "F*k it" and go kill people so they can "go out in a blaze of glory". They've likely played a lot of video games and this is, to some extent, bringing that to life.

What I don't understand is why this happens mostly in the US. Yes, guns are easily available. But they're not that hard to get here, either. If you have no history of psychological problems or a criminal record, you can go through the courses and get your license. Then you can buy an AR-15 if that's what you want. So how come almost nobody ever does that? I have not seen or heard of anyone going on a mass shooting spree even remotely like what happens with dreary regularity down south with a legally obtained firearm.Is it just the delay? The time it takes to go through the process? Or is there something more about the US cultural background which encourages this? And if there is, why did it not exist back in the 1950s or 1960s?

The good old days of the Beach boys and Disneyland Annette Funicello and Bobby Darin are gone. The family has been pretty much decimated by leftist liberalism anti-family, Christian attacks, and the promotion of liberal and socialist/communist kinds of programs and agenda values that have and are being taught in the schools today that it is the human family that is more important to belong to rather then loyalty to their immediate family like their parents and siblings. 

Today, it is all about me attitude, and that life has no meaning anymore. Just go for and do it. I believe that the government has been the main problem here. Teachers have been behind many interventions in the family which has caused huge problems for society with their liberal and socialist anti-family brainwashing. Instead of the government encouraging and promoting family values they appear to have tried to destroy the family. Feminism and the promoting of the gay lifestyle have not helped all that much to help keep the family united. More like they somehow have divided the family.  

When I went to school a very long time ago there was no gun violence in schools and no drugs brought and sold in schools. A certain segment in our society back in the late sixties started all this drug and gun violence that we see in schools and out on the streets today. It was not white nationalists nor white people that started all this chaos and mayhem as many people like to believe and say that this is so. Today that segment of society has had a terrible effect on our white youth of today as far as I am concerned. We see plenty of violence in that segment of society. 

Why is it that when it comes to other non western cultures here in North America, other than Muslims, have this problem as much as white people seem to have? What is going on in our society that is creating white people to want to commit mass murder like we just saw happen in Texas and in Dayton, Ohio last night? Is it the media, the entertainment industry, the teachers, politicians, drugs? What or who is behind this push to want to maybe get white people to want to commit murder? For me it all has to do with the breakdown of the family unit and we are paying for it big time. A lack of a decent and a well paying job is hard to find these days and I have to say that I blame it on our politicians and their massive non western immigration policy in America and in Canada that have lowered wages and a steady well paying income like it use to be many decades ago that may have something to do with white people creating mass killings in America and maybe some day soon in Canada also. Hey, you never know. We as a nation once lived by religious Christian rules and values and we all lived pretty much in peace and harmony. Since religion has been pretty much removed from our every day lives all hell as broken loose. Only families staying together and applying some Christian values into their lives should no doubt help in trying to make the world right again and better for us all.  Just my opinion of course. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

They're almost always young, white males who do not appear to be fully integrated into society. They don't have girlfriends, decent jobs, prospects, or much in the way of friends. And they all seem to be pretty computer literate.

It should come as no surprise that Argus overlooked that they're almost always right-wing as well.

 

1 hour ago, taxme said:

What or who is behind this push to want to maybe get white people to want to commit murder?

The left is what's pushing it but apparently it's gone too far. There's a reason why the right wing is described as being reactionary.  It's not what anyone wants it just is what it is.

 

2 hours ago, Argus said:

I struggle to find any sort of logic in them. Except for the Muslims, of course. There IS a consistent logic with that because their religion...

Would someone please tell Argus it's definitely conservatism that pushes them towards reacting violently too.  It would sure be nice if ya'll could just take yourselves out without dragging normal people into it.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by eyeball

[scribblet]

You should read his manifesto   I can't paste on here, go to drudgereport where there is a link. 

-

 

[Hal 9000]

I firmly believe that it's the marginalization of their group.  Not necessarily right wing or left wing, although it seems that left leaning guys are more pliable and more apt to believe that they are shitty, whereas right wing guys are angered by the implications.  This El Paso thing isn't really terrorism (although they'll call it such, just to even out the columns), it's a resentment that certain classes of people are held in such high esteem, while they're told from a very young age they are worthless.  

If a girl does poorly in school there is a national inquiry, programs, workshops, Pro-D days and funding to equalize the situation, if guys regress in school, they're told to suck it up or drop out.  Schools do not value guys - not a bit.  Same goes for rape, or any violence associated with guys.  A young white girl will never be without, especially if she puts out a kid or two, a white guy can starve on the side of a street and no one will care.  White guys are supposed to "check their privilege" and do as they're told - politicians will say it all the time.  Now, as far as theses marginalized guys think, "illegals" are now the chosen group.  To a lot of people "diversity" means taking from or leaving white guys behind.

I know for a fact that I wouldn't want to be a young white man in america.

    

Edited August 5, 2019 by Hal 9000

[QuebecOverCanada]

Something you may find interesting Argus. According to Jordan Peterson, who taught Psychology, mass shooters do it because of nihilism, among other psychological and sociological reasons. There is also narcissism involed. The name recognition. The feeling that the shooter exists in a way, and finds purpose in death rather than life, that he feels alienated by.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Hal 9000 said:

Now, as far as theses marginalized guys think, "illegals" are now the chosen group. 

No, illegals are clearly the marginalized group. Shooters are quite similar to bombers just radicalized by those who are doing all the marginalizing, America's hard boiled conservative right-wingers. A chosen group if there ever was one. 

Quote

I know for a fact that I wouldn't want to be a young white man in america.

Well, it's the 21st century now and you can choose to be a little girl if you want. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by eyeball

[Hal 9000]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, illegals are clearly the marginalized group. Shooters are quite similar to bombers just radicalized by those who are doing all the marginalizing, America's hard boiled conservative right-wingers. A chosen group if there ever was one. 

Well, it's the 21st century now and you can choose to be a little girl if you want. 

That's not a fact, simply a perspective.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

That's not a fact, simply a perspective.

No it's a fact,  you can really be a little girl. In pigtails even.

[Hal 9000]

Just now, eyeball said:

No it's a fact,  you can really be a little girl. In pigtails even.

I should've known that discussion with you was futile...my bad.

[eyeball]

But seriously, we are looking at right wing reaction.  Pure and simple.

 

[Dougie93]

There's definitely a right wing reactionary sub group, ideologically motivated domestic terrorism, not crazy, not irrational.  5th generation adaptive and dispersed asymmetrical civil war.

But the other subgroup, which I call Incelter Skelter,  is apolitical, social stress meltdown, nihilistic murder suicide revenge against the world.

And sometimes they combine, because the shooter in New Zealand seemed to be an Incelter with a right wing reactionary theme to his revenge against the world.

New Zealand shooter was ideological, but he had other autistic spectrum incelter skelter elements as well, obsessive compulsive tics and whatnot.

With the 8chan shooter in El Paso, he's militarized, all business, ear defenders on, Well Regulated Militia in overthrow the government mode.

In the video of the New Zealand shooter, he's doing some sort of ritual, he goes down the hall and shoots people in the main room, then he goes back and resets from the beginning and does it again, then he does it again, so he's not as militarized, he's fulfilling a fantasy, it's obsessive.

The overarching dynamic is revolutionary vs. bourgeois.

The self radicalizing lone wolfs indoctrinate themselves against the bourgeois general population, and then that is who they attack.

The process of breaking down the conditioning not to kill, is basically the same as the military employs, minus the lawful chain of command part, they are armies of one.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

And this why no amount of gun control is going to work, because this is not crime, this is war.

This is insurgency, and its self organizing, this is a new form of terrorism, there is no central command structure, they run their own ops completely self contained, but all on the same overarching mission, they don't need command and control, they command and control themselves.

The police are basically impotent in the face of it, but even for the military intelligence and whatnot, this is new 21st century phenomena which confounds established counterterrorism strategy.

Firearms are not going to be banned, so they will get their guns, you're not going to win their hearts and minds, and they don't have a command structure which can be taken out resulting in organizational collapse thereafter.

Saying that you need more gun control to stop a terrorist insurgency is hand waving, it's like saying you're going to stop the flow of the Viet Cong down the Ho Minh Trail by passing a law against marching down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

Moreover, passing something like the Assault Weapons Ban will be throwing gasoline on the fire of the right wing reactionary aspect, that's not going to get rid of the tens of millions of automatic weapons already in circulation, but it will be a casus belli for more radicalization and more insurgency, it's a self fulfilling prophecy, it's what they want the government to do, they are trying to provoke some sort of ban, to swell their ranks exponentially in reaction to it.

It was the AWB which birthed this culture, before the AWB very few had military automatic weapons, after the AWB everybody has them now, the AWB backfired many times over.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

There's definitely a right wing reactionary sub group, ideologically motivated domestic terrorism, not crazy, not irrational.  5th generation adaptive and dispersed asymmetrical civil war.

But the other subgroup, which I call Incelter Skelter,  is apolitical, social stress meltdown, nihilistic murder suicide revenge against the world.

And sometimes they combine, because the shooter in New Zealand seemed to be an Incelter with a right wing reactionary theme to his revenge against the world.

Very well put Dougie

[Dougie93]

28 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Very well put Dougie

There's basically two wings, there's the Klebold and Harris Columbine wing and there's the Timothy McVeigh wing, and they are feeding off each other.

The main thing is, both wings see that it's working, terrorism works, they are influencing at the geo-strategic level, altering the behavior of entire nations, they have power, they are using that power, wielding power is the ultimate motivation.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens apex predator males doing what they do, when you remove the societal restraints ingrained by their bourgeois parents.

Again, this is exactly what we do with troops in the army, this is how we indoctrinate kids to kill, except these kids are indoctrinating themselves, without a chain of command to report to nor obey.  Lord of the Flies, with automatic rifles.

This is what civil war looks like, in the 21st century, the Army of Northern Virginia is everywhere and nowhere, adaptive, dispersed and decentralized; 5th generation warfare.

The cops don't know what to do, the military doesn't know what to do, because this is all new, welcome to the bleeding edge of the onset of post industrial war.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[J4L]

5 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I firmly believe that it's the marginalization of their group.  Not necessarily right wing or left wing, although it seems that left leaning guys are more pliable and more apt to believe that they are shitty, whereas right wing guys are angered by the implications.  This El Paso thing isn't really terrorism (although they'll call it such, just to even out the columns), it's a resentment that certain classes of people are held in such high esteem, while they're told from a very young age they are worthless.  

If a girl does poorly in school there is a national inquiry, programs, workshops, Pro-D days and funding to equalize the situation, if guys regress in school, they're told to suck it up or drop out.  Schools do not value guys - not a bit.  Same goes for rape, or any violence associated with guys.  A young white girl will never be without, especially if she puts out a kid or two, a white guy can starve on the side of a street and no one will care.  White guys are supposed to "check their privilege" and do as they're told - politicians will say it all the time.  Now, as far as theses marginalized guys think, "illegals" are now the chosen group.  To a lot of people "diversity" means taking from or leaving white guys behind.

I know for a fact that I wouldn't want to be a young white man in america.

    

In America?

 

It's arguably worse here. I hope you never have the pleasure of experiencing the Canadian Family Law court system.

[scribblet]

One thing that should be noted about the shooter's manifesto is at the bottom but not talked about on any news I've seen. 

The inconvenient truth is that our leaders, both Democrat AND Republican, have been failing us for decades. They are either complacent or involved in one of the biggest betrayals of the
American public in our history. The takeover of the  United States government by unchecked corporations. I could write a ten page essay on all the damage these corporations have caused, but here is what is important. Due to the death of the baby  boomers, the increasingly anti-immigrant rhetoric of the right and the ever increasing Hispanic population, America will soon become a one party-state. The Democrat party will own America and they know it. They have already begun the transition by pandering heavily to the Hispanic voting bloc in the 1st Democratic Debate. They intend to use open  borders, free healthcare for illegals, citizenship  and more to enact a political coup by importing and then legalizing millions of new voters.

and

My ideology has not changed for several years. My opinions on automation, immigration, and the rest predate Trump and his campaign for president. I putting this here because some people will blame the President or certain presidential candidates for the attack. This is not the case. I know that the media will probably call me a white supremacist anyway and blame Trump’s rhetoric. The media is infamous for fake news. Their reaction to this attack will likely just confirm that.
 

https://drudgereport.com/flashtx.htm

[dialamah]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

They've likely played a lot of video games and this is, to some extent, bringing that to life.

Apparently not.  Research has found no correlation between violent video games and aggression, and a minority of mass shooters play violent video games.

Experts say there is little evidence linking video games to violence, and ample evidence to the contrary. Researchers at Oxford University earlier this year found that there was no correlation between the time spent playing video games and aggressive behavior in young people.

Even after a 2004 report conductedby the Secret Service and the Education Department found that only 12 percent of perpetrators in more than three dozen school shootings showed an interest in violent video games, lawmakers and public figures continued to blame the industry. 

Link.

[scribblet]

Maybe this will bring about some changes to gun laws, at least better back ground checks, but there was nothing in their backgrounds that would've stopped them from getting a permit.   Certainly AK 47s and the like should be severely restricted, but as we see in Toronto, gun control doesn't stop people from getting guns if they want them.

ETA:

How many people know that the El Paso killer also  made it clear that he hates automation and corporations, and blames them for the economy  along with blaming Hispanics for environmental degradation?    

He also talks about population control as in  “If we can get rid of enough people, then our way of life can become more sustainable. Ambitious left-wing projects such as universal health care and Universal Basic Income would become far more likely to succeed if tens of millions of dependents are removed.”      doesn't sound all that much right wing IMO and sure  doesn't fit into the general narrative. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by scribblet

[Guest]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

No it's a fact,  you can really be a little girl. In pigtails even.

Gender is optional.  Pigtails require hair.  It's funny that.  I can be a girl if I want, but I can never have pigtails.

There ought to be a Twitter Mob...

[dialamah]

The person doing the shooting always has a reason and logic behind it, even though it makes no sense to most of us.  We see it every day in less deadly ways - flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, various conspiracy theories about illuminati, 9/11 as an inside job, Area 51, Clinton as a child sex trafficker or Planned Parenthood selling aborted baby organs. 

One might as well ask what is the logic behind evangelical Christians supporting a president who is clearly a liar, an adulterer and a fraudster.   It makes perfect and logical sense to them and no sense to anyone else.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The person doing the shooting always has a reason and logic behind it, even though it makes no sense to most of us.  We see it every day in less deadly ways - flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, various conspiracy theories about illuminati, 9/11 as an inside job, Area 51, Clinton as a child sex trafficker or Planned Parenthood selling aborted baby organs. 

One might as well ask what is the logic behind evangelical Christians supporting a president who is clearly a liar, an adulterer and a fraudster.   It makes perfect and logical sense to them and no sense to anyone else.

Actually, you can go back to people like Jim Bakker and see that evangelical Christians are some of the most clueless people on the planet.

[Hal 9000]

Within minutes of the El Paso shooting, we knew he was white.  Very soon after he was a white nationalist.  Even after I saw that the Ohio shooter was Antifa, I watched Don Lemon and all he talked about was white supremacy.  I chalked it up to maybe the news hadn't got to him yet...or time delay, but even today, not a word about Antifa.  The only thing i've seen is that he had a "kill list".  No talk about his politics all.  This guy in El Paso clearly had political beliefs that straddled both parties, but just like the other recent shooters who identified as anti-Trump, that didn't affect the canned media narrative.  For every Trump tweet suggesting that too many illegals are bad for america, there are 10, maybe 100 media comments that Trump people are Irredeemable, deplorable, racists, bigots etc.  When the media says outright that "anyone who votes for Trump is a racist", they are a major contributor.  The media should look at their contribution first.

[dialamah]

52 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Maybe this will bring about some changes to gun laws, at least better back ground checks, but there was nothing in their backgrounds that would've stopped them from getting a permit.   Certainly AK 47s and the like should be severely restricted, but as we see in Toronto, gun control doesn't stop people from getting guns if they want them.

ETA:

How many people know that the El Paso killer also  made it clear that he hates automation and corporations, and blames them for the economy  along with blaming Hispanics for environmental degradation?    

He also talks about population control as in  “If we can get rid of enough people, then our way of life can become more sustainable. Ambitious left-wing projects such as universal health care and Universal Basic Income would become far more likely to succeed if tens of millions of dependents are removed.”      doesn't sound all that much right wing IMO and sure  doesn't fit into the general narrative. 

To paraphrase a conservative commentator on Reddit:  the manifesto made it clear that the primary driver of this individual was from Nationalistic, White Supremacist sentiment, and that Republicans are better than Democrats.   The shooter's comments on UBI and universal healthcare were not supportive, but rather lamenting their necessity due to immigration.  Just like ideologies such as Marxism, Communism is evil, so is White Nationalism.  Using "whatabout" fallacies to minimize his crime is wrong.  This tragedy was caused by White Nationalism, just as communism and militant Islam has caused innumerable tragedies.

I thought this guy made excellent points, so much so that I spent real money to give him an award.  

[Argus]

13 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Something you may find interesting Argus. According to Jordan Peterson, who taught Psychology, mass shooters do it because of nihilism, among other psychological and sociological reasons. There is also narcissism involed. The name recognition. The feeling that the shooter exists in a way, and finds purpose in death rather than life, that he feels alienated by.

Yeah, that kind of nihilism is what I'm thinking about. "My life is shit. It's not going to get any better. I hate the world. I hate those people who are happy and are in relationships and have jobs. I'm going to go out in a blaze of glory and show them!" It's that sort of attitude. But why has it grown so strongly in the past decades as compared to the harsher lives people used to live?