ironstone Posted December 20, 2018 Report Share Posted December 20, 2018 On 12/6/2018 at 5:21 PM, Zeitgeist said: No they’re they’re closely connected. Greenhouse gas regulations shape production. US greenhouse emissions have been dropping for a while now,even if there has been deregulation by Trump. https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/climate-change/epa-reports-u-s-greenhouse-gas-emissions-dropped/ This move by GM must have been planned for a long time,before Trump won in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted December 20, 2018 Report Share Posted December 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said: So almost every country on earth is headed toward Greece's situation then? Not if the government doesn’t spend more than it collects in tax revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted December 20, 2018 Report Share Posted December 20, 2018 On 12/18/2018 at 4:54 PM, bjre said: Many countries are in debt trap. "Like most governments" is not an evidence to prove it is a good choice. Bank of Canada does not earn interest means it is a best choice for government to borrow money from. Who received the interests of public debt? that is 10% of the tax dollars that Canadians pay to the government? Where does it go? I think the government should give us an clear answer. The Bank of Canada does NOT have some endless pool of money to lend at zero interest to government. When the government of Canada, or any province or municipality needs money it doesn't have it has to issue financial instruments (bonds, treasury bills) that are very much interest bearing. Two complicating factors: the idea of endless public debt came about back in the Trudeau Sr. years when inflation would dull the cost of interest on debt. Today with such low amounts of inflation, that is not the case - but since we have let the politicos get away with mortgaging our country and our children's future to fuel their mindless pursuit of ?????, a LOT of countries are indeed circling the drain. The PIIGS were just the most obvious. BUT: there REALLY big elephant in the room is the pent up inflationary and even financial disaster values of potential M2 growth when it slides over in to M1. This SHOULD have been wiped out by a collapse of the Casino Capitalist world in 2008, but instead of letting economic forces correct the stupidity as it did in 1929, finance was rewarded for its treachery by being bailed out to the tune of TRILLION$$$$$. Not understanding the difference between wealth being created by productive endeavour vs. being redistributed by speculative activity will eventually bite us ALL in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted December 20, 2018 Report Share Posted December 20, 2018 The Bank of Canada does collect interest on its loans to the government, and it reinvests the interests in bonds and treasuries. There is no limit to what the Bank can loan, but obviously excessive lending devalues currency. Raising rates can lift a currency, but it can also kill the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 On 12/20/2018 at 10:02 AM, cannuck said: The Bank of Canada does NOT have some endless pool of money to lend at zero interest to government. Yes they do. Money is entirely political, the Bank of Canada can "print" as much money as they see fit. Money is just an IOU, they can issue as many IOU's as they please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: Yes they do. Money is entirely political, the Bank of Canada can "print" as much money as they see fit. Money is just an IOU, they can issue as many IOU's as they please. Looks like you didn't see the post just above yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 Another result of Trump's economic war against Canada, which Scheer and his accomplices will try to bllame Justin for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Dougie93 said: Yes they do. Money is entirely political, the Bank of Canada can "print" as much money as they see fit. Money is just an IOU, they can issue as many IOU's as they please. uh...no. When a the government and the Bank of Canada need money, they have to issue securities, bonds, debentures, Tbills, etc. into the marketplace to raise that money. The aggregate measures of the money supply are monitored by the Bank of Canada, but money supply changes based on activities of financial institutions. The bank influences (but not controls) these aggregates by its monitary policy = essentially setting the interest rate for loans to banks and thus also influencing the interbank rates. When you say: just print as much as they see fit, you are referring to currency, which IS an obligation to the nation and its taxpayers, but is only a very small part of the aggregate components of the money supply. If any central bank of any country (excepting the USA - a very special case) simply prints more currency the end result is that the real world financial markets simply discount the credibility of such an effort by devaluing the exchange rate of the currency based upon market expectations of the credibility of what is backing that currency. Best current example is Venezuela that tried doing exactly what you feel is possible. The result is a complete failure of their economy. The Maduro government tried to do some magic crypto-currency backed by their imaged standard (the "petro") pegged to some assumed value of a barrel of Venezuelan crude. Here is what happens when a government tries to simply "print as much money as they see fit": https://www.statista.com/statistics/371895/inflation-rate-in-venezuela/ There is the theoretical ability of a central bank to do what the hell it pleases, but in reality the marketplace for forex and settlements will determine the REAL value of said currency, so only a complete idiot (or the privately owned US Federal Reserve) would try to simply do what suits them with impunity. Only the de facto currency with hegemony can get away with that (i.e. the Fed) and even then only within some fairly narrow ranges of constraint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, cannuck said: uh...no. When a the government and the Bank of Canada need money, they have to issue securities, bonds, debentures, Tbills, etc. into the marketplace to raise that money. The aggregate measures of the money supply are monitored by the Bank of Canada, but money supply changes based on activities of financial institutions. The bank influences (but not controls) these aggregates by its monitary policy = essentially setting the interest rate for loans to banks and thus also influencing the interbank rates. When you say: just print as much as they see fit, you are referring to currency, which IS an obligation to the nation and its taxpayers, but is only a very small part of the aggregate components of the money supply. If any central bank of any country (excepting the USA - a very special case) simply prints more currency the end result is that the real world financial markets simply discount the credibility of such an effort by devaluing the exchange rate of the currency based upon market expectations of the credibility of what is backing that currency. Best current example is Venezuela that tried doing exactly what you feel is possible. The result is a complete failure of their economy. The Maduro government tried to do some magic crypto-currency backed by their imaged standard (the "petro") pegged to some assumed value of a barrel of Venezuelan crude. Here is what happens when a government tries to simply "print as much money as they see fit": https://www.statista.com/statistics/371895/inflation-rate-in-venezuela/ There is the theoretical ability of a central bank to do what the hell it pleases, but in reality the marketplace for forex and settlements will determine the REAL value of said currency, so only a complete idiot (or the privately owned US Federal Reserve) would try to simply do what suits them with impunity. Only the de facto currency with hegemony can get away with that (i.e. the Fed) and even then only within some fairly narrow ranges of constraint. Fair enough, but as you say, the largest economy country on earth is doing pretty much whatever it pleases vis a vis its money supply, as I said, entirely political, based on nothing more than the vague assertion "Full Faith and Credit of the United States", although I didn't say Canada couldn't Venezuela itself by Quantitative Easing run amok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Fair enough, but as you say, the largest economy country on earth is doing pretty much whatever it pleases vis a vis its money supply, as I said, entirely political, based on nothing more than the vague assertion "Full Faith and Credit of the United States", although I didn't say Canada couldn't Venezuela itself by Quantitative Easing run amok. It goes WAY beyond "politics" and the "vague" assertion of the "Full Faith and Credit of the United States" is hardly vague at all, but quite real and tangible. However, the US is hardly doing whatever IT pleases re: money supply, but the Fed is doing so largely to the benefit of its private owners and to the detriment of those taxpayers who will ultimately be responsible for the fallout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 That being said, I would submit, Canada plausibly has more leeway to buy its own bonds than Venezuela does, in the event of major financial crisis, and I think they would do that in the event of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: That being said, I would submit, Canada plausibly has more leeway to buy its own bonds than Venezuela does, in the event of major financial crisis, and I think they would do that in the event of. Canada does not raise money buy BUYING its own bonds, but by selling them. It can only retire them by servicing said debt to the bondholders. But, yes, we have a lot more credibility than Venezuela because our ridiculous socialist experiment gets tempered by genuine electoral reality, whereas the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela has gone unchecked due to military and corruption backed dictatorship masquerading as an elected government. Both are "backed" by massive resource wealth as you can see, it is the international marketplace that decides what is and is not the literal value placed upon same. Edited January 5, 2019 by cannuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, cannuck said: It goes WAY beyond "politics" and the "vague" assertion of the "Full Faith and Credit of the United States" is hardly vague at all, but quite real and tangible. However, the US is hardly doing whatever IT pleases re: money supply, but the Fed is doing so largely to the benefit of its private owners and to the detriment of those taxpayers who will ultimately be responsible for the fallout. Sorry, but I don't find fiat currency to be based on anything real and tangible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Dougie93 said: Sorry, but I don't find fiat currency to be based on anything real and tangible. Well you can go by the old method of attaching the amount of and value of currency to the gold standard, but then in a sense you’re dealing with fiat gold. What’s the value of gold? Whatever the market dictates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 39 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Well you can go by the old method of attaching the amount of and value of currency to the gold standard, but then in a sense you’re dealing with fiat gold. What’s the value of gold? Whatever the market dictates... Agreed, but the socialists cant print fiat gold, so it limits the money supply inherently, real and tangible, whereas the other direction lies Venezuela at some point, since the socialists will keep printing until they go flying off a cliff, even the American socialists will eventually blow themselves up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: Agreed, but the socialists cant print fiat gold, so it limits the money supply inherently, real and tangible, whereas the other direction lies Venezuela at some point, since the socialists will keep printing until they go flying off a cliff, even the American socialists will eventually blow themselves up. There is constantly currency swapping taking place through the Libor. Central banks and traders are watching currency flows, business news, and political moves constantly to ensure no country gets too out there without consequence. One thing is for sure: Never give up having a central bank and currency control. Some EU countries are really hurting because they have no monetary flexibility being attached to the Euro. Britain was wise to keep the pound while in the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 Better that Canada separate itself completely with the US. If the US ever gets a sane government maybe we can resume trade on our conditions. Otherwise, we need to wean ourselves off of depending on the US and deal more with countries like China. It will also allow Canada to take the high road and not have to be so closely aligned with the US, the most warmongering aggressor nation in the world today, by far. Canada doesn't need to suffer revenge attacks for their slaughter of millions since WW2 alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: There is constantly currency swapping taking place through the Libor. Central banks and traders are watching currency flows, business news, and political moves constantly to ensure no country gets too out there without consequence. One thing is for sure: Never give up having a central bank and currency control. Some EU countries are really hurting because they have no monetary flexibility being attached to the Euro. Britain was wise to keep the pound while in the EU. If you don't understand that US might alone makes right then you're out of touch with reality. Canada has been blackmailed by the US too many times for us to not have learnt the lesson that we must broaden our trading horizons. Indeed, the rest of the world needs to isolate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: There is constantly currency swapping taking place through the Libor. Central banks and traders are watching currency flows, business news, and political moves constantly to ensure no country gets too out there without consequence. One thing is for sure: Never give up having a central bank and currency control. Some EU countries are really hurting because they have no monetary flexibility being attached to the Euro. Britain was wise to keep the pound while in the EU. Well, Canada does have an ace in the hole, as the British Crown in Right of Canada owns all the land here in British North America, none of us have property rights which supersedes the Crown's, and there's gold in dem hills, a lotta gold, so when the fiat currency printing party finally comes to an end, the Crown will actually be sitting pretty compared to most, as they don't need to keep gold in a vault in Ottawa, Canada is the vault, and Liz Windsor and Co owns it all, assuming the Americans don't just take by force of arms that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, montgomery said: If you don't understand that US might alone makes right then you're out of touch with reality. Canada has been blackmailed by the US too many times for us to not have learnt the lesson that we must broaden our trading horizons. Indeed, the rest of the world needs to isolate them. Go for it....U.S. trade is already far more diversified than Canada's. Not so isolated compared to Canada's 75% exports to the USA. Edited January 5, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 23 minutes ago, montgomery said: Better that Canada separate itself completely with the US. If the US ever gets a sane government maybe we can resume trade on our conditions. Otherwise, we need to wean ourselves off of depending on the US and deal more with countries like China. It will also allow Canada to take the high road and not have to be so closely aligned with the US, the most warmongering aggressor nation in the world today, by far. Canada doesn't need to suffer revenge attacks for their slaughter of millions since WW2 alone. China has to build trust with Canada. You’re right that Canada has to expand trade with other countries than the US, but it’s natural, convenient and environmentally responsible for Canada and the US to trade. We’re each other’s biggest export markets. In trade volume, both countries export equal amounts to each other. China and Japan need to lower barriers to our goods. Free trade with Europe through CETA will help diversify our trade. We also have trade deals in South America and the Pacific Rim getting rolling. Canada must move away from dependence on any one country, though our relationships with the UK through the Commonwealth and with our NATO partners matter. Don’t take the bait from BC. He enjoys tormenting Canadians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted January 6, 2019 Report Share Posted January 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: China has to build trust with Canada. You’re right that Canada has to expand trade with other countries than the US, but it’s natural, convenient and environmentally responsible for Canada and the US to trade. We’re each other’s biggest export markets. In trade volume, both countries export equal amounts to each other. China and Japan need to lower barriers to our goods. Free trade with Europe through CETA will help diversify our trade. We also have trade deals in South America and the Pacific Rim getting rolling. Canada must move away from dependence on any one country, though our relationships with the UK through the Commonwealth and with our NATO partners matter. Don’t take the bait from BC. He enjoys tormenting Canadians. China can have a super cargo carrier at Vancouver with a load of lettuce three says before the leaves wilt. There is absolutely no need for close trading partners any longer. And especially the US which puts Canada in danger of revenge attacks against US wars and the slaughter of millions that go with it. 40 US wars of aggression since WW2 alone. Is it possible that some Canadians are appreciating the significance of that sort of slaughter? Maybe try thinking of your own children and grand children being machine gunned down by some blood thirsty American? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 6, 2019 Report Share Posted January 6, 2019 56 minutes ago, montgomery said: China can have a super cargo carrier at Vancouver with a load of lettuce three says before the leaves wilt. There is absolutely no need for close trading partners any longer. And especially the US which puts Canada in danger of revenge attacks against US wars and the slaughter of millions that go with it. 40 US wars of aggression since WW2 alone. Is it possible that some Canadians are appreciating the significance of that sort of slaughter? Maybe try thinking of your own children and grand children being machine gunned down by some blood thirsty American? You’re very pro China. If you’re working for the People’s Republic you have to disguise yourself better or openly admit who you represent. We believe in doing things above board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted January 6, 2019 Report Share Posted January 6, 2019 17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: You’re very pro China. If you’re working for the People’s Republic you have to disguise yourself better or openly admit who you represent. We believe in doing things above board. Be careful of the personal attacks against me! I''ll let those two go this time but I won't next time. I'm not pro-China or pro-Russia or pro-anything, nearly as much as I am anti-US, and with very good reasons which I've stated numerous times. You 'will' learn eventually to attack the message, not the messenger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 6, 2019 Report Share Posted January 6, 2019 1 minute ago, montgomery said: Be careful of the personal attacks against me! I''ll let those two go this time but I won't next time. I'm not pro-China or pro-Russia or pro-anything, nearly as much as I am anti-US, and with very good reasons which I've stated numerous times. You 'will' learn eventually to attack the message, not the messenger! Spoken like a true Maoist. Don’t worry, we’re all friends here, well unless it becomes hateful, but then the moderator steps in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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