GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s an issue for all governments in advanced economies.  I have cited examples on both sides of the border.  Don’t make this a Canada versus US thing, as that’s a red herring.  Canada has a similar economy to the US.  

 

OK, but why have you not advocated for solutions developed and paid for by only Canadian capital investment ?   Continued dependence on foreign direct investment and export markets will only lead you right back to the same place.   You want more jobs and population in the north....so how will CANADA make that happen ?

Should Canada only be permitted to export/sell in the U.S. if all the jobs are created for Americans...in America ?

It will always be a Canada vs. US vs. Mexico vs. China thing....there is nothing special about Canada when it comes to corporate decisions.

 

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK, but why have you not advocated for solutions developed and paid for by only Canadian capital investment ?   Continued dependence on foreign direct investment and export markets will only lead you right back to the same place.   You want more jobs and population in the north....so how will CANADA make that happen ?

Should Canada only be permitted to export/sell in the U.S. if all the jobs are created for Americans...in America ?

It will always be a Canada vs. US vs. Mexico vs. China thing....there is nothing special about Canada when it comes to corporate decisions.

 

I agree that we need made in Canada solutions for made in Canada problems, of which there are many.  The problem I’m referring to is really a transnational problem for western developed countries.  My point isn’t to try and gain more share of a single finite pie, but to figure out which policies will grow the pie.  Yes we only have so much influence.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I agree that we need made in Canada solutions for made in Canada problems, of which there are many.  The problem I’m referring to is really a transnational problem for western developed countries.  My point isn’t to try and gain more share of a single finite pie, but to figure out which policies will grow the pie.  Yes we only have so much influence.  

 

The pie is already growing under present conditions...it is not zero sum gain.

There will be winners and losers...just as before...and nothing will change that.

GM has already made its choices for China because it has a much higher upside than Canada or the USA.

Canada is not even a player at that level, and I don't see any attempt to do so.  So live with the consequences.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The pie is already growing under present conditions...it is not zero sum gain.

There will be winners and losers...just as before...and nothing will change that.

GM has already made its choices for China because it has a much higher upside than Canada or the USA.

Canada is not even a player at that level, and I don't see any attempt to do so.  So live with the consequences.

And how is Chinese production for Chinese markets helping the US?  Offshoring is one piece.  Automation is another.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

And how is Chinese production for Chinese markets helping the US?  Offshoring is one piece.  Automation is another.  

 

The same way that building cheap PCs in China helped Microsoft.   Much higher margins for Windows OS than for hardware.

Canada is the same as China in this regard, so no special points there either.

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The same way that building cheap PCs in China helped Microsoft.   Much higher margins for Windows OS than for hardware.

Canada is the same as China in this regard, so no special points there either.

Canada smartphone (Blackberry) tech was poached by Huawei years ago as much US tech has been poached.  So great.  America and Canada can buy all the reworked tech in Chinese made electric vehicles, imported from GM China.  How does any of that solve the problems I’m describing?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada smartphone (Blackberry) tech was poached by Huawei years ago as much US tech has been poached.  So great.  America and Canada can buy all the reworked tech in Chinese made electric vehicles, imported from GM China.  How does any of that solve the problems I’m describing?

 

Blackberry also infringed on U.S. patents (e.g. NTP)....so what ?

GM can make more money importing vehicles from China, and it makes less money importing them from Canada.

The problems you are describing are not bugs...they are features.

Canada will have to solve Canada's problems instead of hoping that a foreign country saves the day.

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Blackberry also infringed on U.S. patents (e.g. NTP)....so what ?

GM can make more money importing vehicles from China, and it makes less money importing them from Canada.

The problems you are describing are not bugs...they are features.

Canada will have to solve Canada's problems instead of hoping that a foreign country saves the day.

You’re on this Canada dependence on the US theme.  Well Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada were damaging to both Canada and the US.  We have balanced trade.   It isn’t a case of one low paying and low standards  jurisdiction selling into another.  Both Canada and the US have trade deficits with China, and offshoring is just one part of the equation.  Automation is another.  I’m discussing how to ensure that middle income jobs exist for the majority of the population.  Yes we know that Canada relies on trade to the US out of convenience, but the trade volumes in each direction are roughly equal.  Indeed Canadians have learned to be wary of the potential damage  the US can inflict through policy, to itself and others.  We know Canada must diversify trade from the US.  Nevertheless, the problems of automation and offshoring to low cost jurisdictions persist.  I’m interested in solutions.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re on this Canada dependence on the US theme.  Well Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada were damaging to both Canada and the US.  We have balanced trade.   It isn’t a case of one low paying and low standards  jurisdiction selling into another.  Both Canada and the US have trade deficits with China, and offshoring is just one part of the equation.  Automation is another. 

 

And you are on a U.S. reliance theme...do you ever discuss these issues from a different perspective, or is it always dominated by what Trump/U.S. does ?

Automation is good...increases productivity.   Unfortunately for Canada, it has been slow to increase worker productivity this way compared to other OECD nations...and China.

Canada's GDP is more dependent on exports (30%) than either China (20%) or the United States (13%).

 

Quote

I’m discussing how to ensure that middle income jobs exist for the majority of the population.  Yes we know that Canada relies on trade to the US out of convenience, but the trade volumes in each direction are roughly equal.  Indeed Canadians have learned to be wary of the potential damage  the US can inflict through policy, to itself and others.  We know Canada must diversify trade from the US.  Nevertheless, the problems of automation and offshoring to low cost jurisdictions persist.  I’m interested in solutions.  

 

It seems like you expect the U.S. to lead the way for your middle class salvation...in Canada.

You want solutions ?    Grow your own.....

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

And you are on a U.S. reliance theme...do you ever discuss these issues from a different perspective, or is it always dominated by what Trump/U.S. does ?

Automation is good...increases productivity.   Unfortunately for Canada, it has been slow to increase worker productivity this way compared to other OECD nations...and China.

Canada's GDP is more dependent on exports (30%) than either China (20%) or the United States (13%).

 

 

It seems like you expect the U.S. to lead the way for your middle class salvation...in Canada.

You want solutions ?    Grow your own.....

Canada’s production facilities are generally as productive as US plants.  Canada’s productivity lag relates more to the different sectors in which Canada is most active.  Resource extraction has a flatter tech/production improvement rise than the industrial or tech sectors.  GM Canada’s plants were generally the most productive.  GM’s decision to close relates entirely to the shift to low cost jurisdictions, i.e. Mexico.  No doubt models become dated and retooling to new ones is required, but it boils down to much lower wages in low regulation, low cost jurisdictions and the race to the bottom.  I guess Mexico wins.  Just don’t pretend that Canada’s auto production is the issue.  Far from it.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada’s production facilities are generally as productive as US plants.  Canada’s productivity lag relates more to the different sectors in which Canada is most active.  Resource extraction has a flatter tech/production improvement rise than the industrial or tech sectors.  GM Canada’s plants were generally the most productive.  GM’s decision to close relates entirely to the shift to low cost jurisdictions, i.e. Mexico.  No doubt models become dated and retooling to new ones is required, but it boils down to much lower wages in low regulation, low cost jurisdictions and the race to the bottom.  I guess Mexico wins.  Just don’t pretend that Canada’s auto production is the issue.  Far from it.  

 

Guess again...Canada is the most expensive "jurisdiction" for automotive production in the Americas.  

Canadian per-capita productivity is far lower than the OECD leaders.

Ontario has lost over 100,000 automotive jobs in the past 20 years....and they are not coming back.  

This is the economic reality in Ontario and Canada, and no other nation owes these workers anything.

 

Quote

The chronic productivity gap between Canada and the U.S. is widening, according to a new study by the Business Development Bank of Canada (BDC), with serious negative implications for Canada’s standard of living.

The Montreal-based bank, a federal Crown corporation, said its findings are based on a July survey of 1,500 small and mid-sized businesses across the country.  Among the study’s key findings:

• Canadian firms are far less productive, compared to their U.S. counterparts, than they were 35 years ago. On a Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per hour basis, Canadian firms generate just 73 per cent as much output as their U.S. peers, down from over 90 per cent in the 1980s.

• Productivity among small and mid-size firms in Canada is particularly poor. It’s less than half (47 per cent) that of large businesses. In the U.S., the gap is much less, with small or mid-size firms 67 per cent as productive as major corporations.

• Canadian businesses spend far less on productivity-boosting information and communications technology as U.S. firms do. The BDC study found that the level of investment  in Canada is just over half (56 per cent) that in the U.S.

• Although eight in 10 entrepreneurs in Canada believe it’s important to measure and benchmark productivity, just six per cent of this country’s small or mid-size businesses formally do so.

The BDC survey, released Monday to coincide with the start of BDC Small Business Week, raises serious concerns about future corporate profitability and how Canada will be able to maintain its high standard of living, said Pierre Cleroux, the bank’s vice-president, research and chief economist.

“Our productivity growth is not increasing as rapidly as the U.S. or other developed economies, so we are building a productivity gap, and this is not good because it’s basically (a threat to) our standard of living,” he said, in an interview.

https://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/canadau-s-productivity-gap-a-threat-to-our-standard-of-living-new-study-from-bdc-warns

 

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Guess again...Canada is the most expensive "jurisdiction" for automotive production in the Americas.  

Canadian per-capita productivity is far lower than the OECD leaders.

Ontario has lost over 100,000 automotive jobs in the past 20 years....and they are not coming back.  

This is the economic reality in Ontario and Canada, and no other nation owes these workers anything.

 

 

Ha ha, once again you’re distracting from the issue I mentioned, which is auto production, and Canada’s GM Oshawa plant was and is among the most productive in North America and is being shut down for unfair reasons.  Boycott GM!

https://money.cnn.com/2007/05/31/news/companies/autoplant_productivity/index.htm?postversion=2007053115

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4697468/general-motors-end-oshawa-operations/amp/

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ha ha, once again you’re distracting from the issue I mentioned, which is auto production, and Canada’s GM Oshawa plant was and is among the most productive in North America and is being shut down for unfair reasons.  Boycott GM!

 

Too bad...energy costs have increased dramatically in Ontario because of government decisions and leadership.

GM Oshawa plant is closing, because it has no model allocation and too many overpaid union workers.

Just buy the plant and build more Canadian cars...oh...wait...that won't work, will it ?

 

...you can't boycott your way out of non-competitiveness.   Excuses won't change anything.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Boycott ?    Why not strike and show GM who is the boss in Canada ?

 

Quote

After GM’s November announcement of a broad restructuring, including Oshawa, the union backed brief production disruptions, a call to boycott GM’s Mexican-made vehicles and a “solidarity” concert for workers by British musician Sting.

But Dias has not yet deployed the biggest weapon in his arsenal — a general strike to fully halt production of Silverado and Sierra pickups, vital to the Detroit automaker’s profitability.

Dias concedes there is mixed support for a walkout among union workers. Some Oshawa workers fear that shutting down GM Canada would hurt them much more than the company.

... “We’ve asked many, many times — and offered all kinds of different things: ‘What can we do, as the government of Ontario, for you to change your mind?’” said Economic Development Minister Todd Smith. “And the answer has always been: ‘Nothing.’”

https://business.financialpost.com/transportation/autos/canadian-auto-union-faces-catch-22-in-general-motors-fight

 

[Zeitgeist]

59 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Too bad...energy costs have increased dramatically in Ontario because of government decisions and leadership.

GM Oshawa plant is closing, because it has no model allocation and too many overpaid union workers.

Just buy the plant and build more Canadian cars...oh...wait...that won't work, will it ?

 

...you can't boycott your way out of non-competitiveness.   Excuses won't change anything.

 

Cheaper electricity costs than many US states and cities.  I’ve sent the stats before.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Cheaper electricity costs than many US states and cities.  I’ve sent the stats before.  

 

Wonderful...now make that relevant to auto plant operations in Ontario, the highest cost "jurisdiction" in the Americas.

Compete...or lose even more auto sector jobs.    Nothing is owed.

[bush_cheney2004]

I love this...GM layoff packages for Oshawa workers includes a $10,000 voucher towards buying a new GM vehicle.

https://driving.ca/chevrolet/auto-news/gm-plant/gm-outlines-retirement-packages-for-workers-at-closing-oshawa-plant

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Wonderful...now make that relevant to auto plant operations in Ontario, the highest cost "jurisdiction" in the Americas.

Compete...or lose even more auto sector jobs.    Nothing is owed.

Fake news.  Show evidence.  

[bush_cheney2004]

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Fake news.  Show evidence.  

 

Read and weep...again:

https://canada.autonews.com/suppliers/auto-industry-wants-ontario-fix-ridiculous-electricity-rates

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/high-ontario-electricity-rates-concern-car-makers/article33993780/

 

Canada is small potatoes for total auto production in North America, and getting smaller:

Quote

Canadian auto industry manufacturers now account for just 15.6 per cent of North American product, down from 17 per cent in 2010, the report by DesRosiers found. Meanwhile, Mexico’s share has risen to 19 per cent.

Automotive industry employment is also suffering.

Employment peaked in Canada in 2000 at 153,000 workers. By 2009, it had fallen to 98,000. Since then, even with the robust recovery in sales, the auto industry has added just 4,000 jobs.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/18/auto_manufacturing_in_canada_in_longterm_decline_report_warns.html

 

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Read and weep...again:

https://canada.autonews.com/suppliers/auto-industry-wants-ontario-fix-ridiculous-electricity-rates

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/high-ontario-electricity-rates-concern-car-makers/article33993780/

 

Canada is small potatoes for total auto production in North America, and getting smaller:

 

 

 

From your first referenced article, “A 2017 study by the Automotive Policy Research Centre at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ont., found that the cost of electricity added an average of US $6 to US $18 to vehicle prices in Ontario when compared to the 10 largest auto-producing jurisdictions in the United States. The report’s authors note that “the size of the gap is not currently large enough to warrant” characterizations that electric costs are a major issue for Ontario manufacturing.”

That’s fairly insignificant.  Also, your second article references a plan:

”The new pricing scheme, called the Industry Conservation Initiative, enables large power users to reduce their costs by operating during times when electricity use is not at its peak.”

The higher productivity of the Oshawa operations should offset those costs.  The bigger issue still is jobs moving to jurisdictions with low wages, representing a decline in living standards for workers as they try to compete with the lowest paid workers.

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

 

That’s fairly insignificant. 

 

Not to the corporate bean counters.  Obviously it is an issue or these articles would not exist.  

 

Quote

The higher productivity of the Oshawa operations should offset those costs.  The bigger issue still is jobs moving to jurisdictions with low wages, representing a decline in living standards for workers as they try to compete with the lowest paid workers   

 

Higher productivity is meaningless when it is means building vehicles that are in low demand.  GM leadership has explained multiple times why it will not reconsider.  Accordingly, the GM Oshawa plant will be idled and repurposed by GM.

Canada remains the highest cost "jurisdiction" for auto assembly in North America.

 

Quote

Like the U.S., Canada has witnessed thousands of manufacturing jobs and motor-vehicle assembly capacity shift to Mexico. Canada is among the most expensive countries in the world to build cars and the highest-cost market for car assembly in the North American free trade zone.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/gms-plan-to-close-oshawa-plant-is-setback-for-canadas-auto-sector-1543269308

 

[Zeitgeist]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not to the corporate bean counters.  Obviously it is an issue or these articles would not exist.  

 

 

Higher productivity is meaningless when it is means building vehicles that are in low demand.  GM leadership has explained multiple times why it will not reconsider.  Accordingly, the GM Oshawa plant will be idled and repurposed by GM.

Canada remains the highest cost "jurisdiction" for auto assembly in North America.

 

 

Perhaps it was the most expensive that week.  No doubt to remain competitive we have to watch all input costs, including wages and benefits.  Just be careful what you’re willing to accept.  You can always go lower.  Auto workers already have two tier compensation for new workers.  There’s nothing to prevent auto companies from paying workers barista salaries.  Oh, and strip away benefits.  If they get injured on the assembly line, it can be a small disability enhancement.  Good to go.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Perhaps it was the most expensive that week.  No doubt to remain competitive we have to watch all input costs, including wages and benefits.  Just be careful what you’re willing to accept.  You can always go lower.  Auto workers already have two tier compensation for new workers.  There’s nothing to prevent auto companies from paying workers barista salaries.  Oh, and strip away benefits.  If they get injured on the assembly line, it can be a small disability enhancement.  Good to go.  

 

The GM Oshawa plant was already on borrowed time, surviving previous shutdown decisions in 2012, 2014, and 2016.   It's not like these workers expected consolidated operations to be extended forever.   Jerry Dias' union bluster is entertaining, but it's not his decision to make...or risks to take.

Edited May 19, 2019 by bush_cheney2004