GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

26 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't care about your confidence.  I want evidence.  Publicly traded companies don't count.  Many such companies are multi-national and composed of large and small companies through mergers and acquisitions.  No government or individuals can claim complete ownership, unless perhaps they are at least majority shareholders.  Let's stick to private companies, though even these don't have to have any loyalty to their country of origin.  As stated in the past, some US companies Canadianize parts of their organizations by acquiring Canadian businesses (e.g. GM acquiring Buick).  Sometimes they shift operations out of the country, but sometimes they don't  That happens more to Canadian businesses than American ones because we have fewer big fish. 

 

Not GM's problem...or America's problem.  Big fish eat little fish, and Canadian public and private firms have gobbled up U.S. based companies in several business sectors.  Publicly traded companies do count....whether they succeed or fail....and the American based companies have done more to employ Canadians than vice versa, whether you want to believe it or not.

 

Quote

.... My only point in this entire discussion (I don't care about your nonsense dumping on Canada) is that growing sales in a market should not result in shrinking labour forces in that same market.  Sure, this can continue.  No doubt automation provides savings and there will be more of it.  No doubt companies will seek the lowest cost labour jurisdictions.  If we can's stem the outflow/disappearance of decent paying jobs, your middle class disappears.  I know you already have your pension and don't care.  For my kids' generation's sake, I bloody well do.  

 

Then save them on your dime and bail outs...these corps don't owe you or them a damn thing.   Think you can do better ?  Go for it !

Your ideas are dead on arrival in the real world.

 

 

[taxme]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:40 PM, Rue said:

Its not nonsense. You just don't understand it. 

The economic status you refer to Canada several decades ago was not in great economic shape. It had serious challenges such as inflation, recession, high unemployment rates.

I am getting back to you.  Your math is sad. When people die and are replaced it does not necessarily mean an increase. Here try say this slowly. if I take minus 10 and add 10, what is the number Taxme? Think about that. Take all the time you want. You are having problems with it clearly.

Speaking about math Canada does not take in hundreds of thousands of legal and illegal refugees each year. Go find the numbers out for yourself. Its easily found don;t just spew shit off your head.

That hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal refugees also included new immigrants which I failed to add to the mix. Happy?  Although I must have had all the new legal immigrants in mind as refugees also because I think that most of them do end up like refugees in Canada anyway, and most of them do end up on some kind of taxpayer assistance to survive in Canada. Not all new immigrants find new jobs and some never do find a job. 

Here is a question for you to toy with? If immigration is supposed so great for Canada then why don't many of those poor and impoverished third world countries take in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants into their countries? You seem to feel that Canada needs to take in as many new immigrants as it can get to help our economy grow. It then should work also for third world countries also, right? More new immigrants for them which should help their third world economy grow. Yes/no? 

[taxme]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:41 PM, Rue said:

Some politicians care because the unemployment will be in their ridings. Logic is not one of your strengths.

Most politicians don't care. They have to put on a show that they care. Hello? Common sense and logic and telling it pretty much like it is is my strength. I know for sure that emotion and foolish talk are two of your major strengths. You know yourself that in a months time you will have forgotten all about the plight of the GM workers and so will everyone else here. It's inevitable that it will happen. You probably are starting to already forget about them. Many will say as long as I am okay that is all that matters and this event will disappear from view. Just watch. 

[taxme]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:45 PM, cannuck said:

Why indeed?   If the 5 year, or 5 MINUTE guy is more capable, then he/she should be bumping the 25 year vet on merit.

So, a guy who has worked for a company, say, for thirty five years and has been a good worker and has a pension with that company he should be allowed to be bumped by someone junior to him just because of merit? Put a sixty year old man out of work because of merit? Really a bright or maybe I should say a dumb reply from you. Too bad that would not happen too you. 

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

So, a guy who has worked for a company, say, for thirty five years and has been a good worker and has a pension with that company he should be allowed to be bumped by someone junior to him just because of merit? Put a sixty year old man out of work because of merit? Really a bright or maybe I should say a dumb reply from you. Too bad that would not happen too you. 

It is happening to me.  I am busy training my replacement at my "day job" contract client's business.  He is 25 and can do most of the things I do for them, plus one more that I can't.  What makes you think that taking up space should give you any special privilege?  I have been the key person in what I do (as a contractor) to this client for 29 years, financed them in their early days, partnered with them later on.  In fact, if contractors had employee numbers, my seniority would give me #1 (out of about 1,000).

Businesses are NOT social service agencies.  Almost EVERY job should be awarded strictly on merit.  IF we had right-to-work legislation, that is exactly what would evolve, as it should.   And, before you get carried away with what a cruel SOB I am:  I have kept one of my US businesses open and operating at a massive loss for at least 8 years longer than it should have existed - because our lead hand has a very sick wife who would be uninsurable if they could not remain in our health care plan.  BUT: that is a choice I made on behalf of my back pocket and other shareholders.  Why do you think government should be able to force me or any other business into such a situation? (In fact, that is exactly what the US government does NOT get right - universal sick care insurance).

[Zeitgeist]

11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not GM's problem...or America's problem.  Big fish eat little fish, and Canadian public and private firms have gobbled up U.S. based companies in several business sectors.  Publicly traded companies do count....whether they succeed or fail....and the American based companies have done more to employ Canadians than vice versa, whether you want to believe it or not.

 

 

Then save them on your dime and bail outs...these corps don't owe you or them a damn thing.   Think you can do better ?  Go for it !

Your ideas are dead on arrival in the real world.

 

 

You’re making unsubstantiated claims. I’m not asking America for anything.  Our government and the US government should hold the auto sector accountable. You say government should take a hands off approach, yet Trump has been very hands on about tariffs, so let’s at least adopt policies that will get the desired results. 

[Rue]

10 hours ago, taxme said:

If immigration is supposed so great for Canada then why don't many of those poor and impoverished third world countries take in hundreds of thousands of new immigrants into their countries?

Sit, breath, the answer is Because their economies are not built up to the extent Canada's is. They would  need to develop their economies further to then need people to work. In some third world countries, workers do come in as immigrants when they suddenly need workers.

 

[Rue]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re making unsubstantiated claims. I’m not asking America for anything.  Our government and the US government should hold the auto sector accountable. You say government should take a hands off approach, yet Trump has been very hands on about tariffs, so let’s at least adopt policies that will get the desired results. 

How do you hold them responsible? Do you want to arrest people? They haven't broken any criminal laws. You can't sue them civilly. You can't force people to run businesses at a loss.

 

[Rue]

5 hours ago, cannuck said:

It is happening to me.  I am busy training my replacement at my "day job" contract client's business.  He is 25 and can do most of the things I do for them, plus one more that I can't.  What makes you think that taking up space should give you any special privilege?  I have been the key person in what I do (as a contractor) to this client for 29 years, financed them in their early days, partnered with them later on.  In fact, if contractors had employee numbers, my seniority would give me #1 (out of about 1,000).

Businesses are NOT social service agencies.  Almost EVERY job should be awarded strictly on merit.  IF we had right-to-work legislation, that is exactly what would evolve, as it should.   And, before you get carried away with what a cruel SOB I am:  I have kept one of my US businesses open and operating at a massive loss for at least 8 years longer than it should have existed - because our lead hand has a very sick wife who would be uninsurable if they could not remain in our health care plan.  BUT: that is a choice I made on behalf of my back pocket and other shareholders.  Why do you think government should be able to force me or any other business into such a situation? (In fact, that is exactly what the US government does NOT get right - universal sick care insurance).

 

If anyone is looking for a permanent job they say in forever those days are gone. You are not cruel simply stating reality. Reality  sucks if you expect to live in a make believe world where nothing changes.

The union at GM has dug its head in the sand. Instead of swearing at Fatboy Ford or whining, the idiot running the union should be concentrating on getting his laid off workers the best he can for them  retraining benefuts . Unions can be the worst enemy of their workers being so G..d damn reactionary.

Many auto workers have moved on and saw the writing on the walls. Others felt they were too old to start again and retired early and now watch their pensions get clawed back. No it aint easy for them or anyone being laid off. Hell working as a self employed I am constantly looking or new contracts and I have learned, do not stress over that which you have no direct control over, take the moment, see what you can have control with and focus on that. It sounds stupid but people get overwhelmed worrying about the future when they should concentrate on the here and now and things they can do and can learn to do  not what they won't able to do. Oh hell I wish it were just that easy. I mean that gut anxiety worrying about ever working again  is the shitz but its life. It sucks but it is reality unless you are born into a trust fund like our PM or Finance Minister.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Rue

[Zeitgeist]

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

How do you hold them responsible? Do you want to arrest people? They haven't broken any criminal laws. You can't sue them civilly. You can't force people to run businesses at a loss.

 

The same way we hold polluters responsible: regulation. 

[taxme]

6 hours ago, cannuck said:

It is happening to me.  I am busy training my replacement at my "day job" contract client's business.  He is 25 and can do most of the things I do for them, plus one more that I can't.  What makes you think that taking up space should give you any special privilege?  I have been the key person in what I do (as a contractor) to this client for 29 years, financed them in their early days, partnered with them later on.  In fact, if contractors had employee numbers, my seniority would give me #1 (out of about 1,000).

Businesses are NOT social service agencies.  Almost EVERY job should be awarded strictly on merit.  IF we had right-to-work legislation, that is exactly what would evolve, as it should.   And, before you get carried away with what a cruel SOB I am:  I have kept one of my US businesses open and operating at a massive loss for at least 8 years longer than it should have existed - because our lead hand has a very sick wife who would be uninsurable if they could not remain in our health care plan.  BUT: that is a choice I made on behalf of my back pocket and other shareholders.  Why do you think government should be able to force me or any other business into such a situation? (In fact, that is exactly what the US government does NOT get right - universal sick care insurance).

A slight misunderstanding. I was referring to union jobs where seniority does count.

[taxme]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Sit, breath, the answer is Because their economies are not built up to the extent Canada's is. They would  need to develop their economies further to then need people to work. In some third world countries, workers do come in as immigrants when they suddenly need workers.

 

I am breathing ok. Maybe you should be the one taking a deep breath and chill out for awhile. As I said, if immigration is so great for a country than a third world country should be bringing in more new immigrants with skills to try and help that country and it's economy to get going. It's time they started to think and build up their economies. Why is immigration only supposed to be great for Western countries only? Canada has enough people to carry on for decades to come and Canada does not need any more new immigrants, especially the legal and illegal ones. 

FYI, I just saw on the news this morning that your dear leader kid PM has decided to give $50 million Canadian tax dollars to South Africa to help them with some educational bull chit. Giving $50 million tax dollars to a country where hundreds of white farmers are being seriously injured and killed by pro black Mandela communists seems a bit pathetic to be doing, don't you think? That money could have been better spent on those GM workers who could have used that money instead. What say you about that bit of sad and bad news? Over too you. 

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re making unsubstantiated claims. I’m not asking America for anything.  Our government and the US government should hold the auto sector accountable. You say government should take a hands off approach, yet Trump has been very hands on about tariffs, so let’s at least adopt policies that will get the desired results. 

 

If it's such a great idea, the Canada and the employees can buy the shuttered auto plants and make them crown corporations.   Everybody wants to buy a car or truck from "Government Motors".   Nationalize the plants....like Cuba !

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If it's such a great idea, the Canada and the employees can buy the shuttered auto plants and make them crown corporations.   Everybody wants to buy a car or truck from "Government Motors".   Nationalize the plants....like Cuba !

 

Your grow-op plan might not be far off the mark, you know. The bikers did it before...

[Zeitgeist]

43 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If it's such a great idea, the Canada and the employees can buy the shuttered auto plants and make them crown corporations.   Everybody wants to buy a car or truck from "Government Motors".   Nationalize the plants....like Cuba !

It's no different from the corporate welfare socialist make-work project called the US military.

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It's no different from the corporate welfare socialist make-work project called the US military.

 

Yes it is....the US military is enumerated in the US Constitution...no monarchy required.

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Rue said:

The union at GM has dug its head in the sand.

Uh...that's not where they stick their head.  You are being too polite.

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The same way we hold polluters responsible: regulation. 

Any such regulation would deliver EXACTLY what Trudeau Sr. intended - just society.  Since there would be no significant business left in the country, we would be left with just society.   Pierre's dream come true.

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

A slight misunderstanding. I was referring to union jobs where seniority does count.

and with right to work legislation (if we were actually a free country) it wouldn't matter.  Unions would become obsolete.

[taxme]

17 minutes ago, cannuck said:

and with right to work legislation (if we were actually a free country) it wouldn't matter.  Unions would become obsolete.

Without unions there would probably be no company pension plan or company benefits and a decent wage. Of course some unions have overstepped their boundaries and got themselves involved in politics with union members union dues which should have never been allowed to happen. The NDP received plenty of union members money from unions that supported certain political party's. Without unions today we would be going back to the old days where unions did not exist and workers were treated like shit by their employers. 

So, you now do admit that Canada is not all that great and free, eh? 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, taxme said:

Without unions there would probably be no company pension plan or company benefits and a decent wage.

 

That's fine, but if unions partied during the good times with high wages, pensions, benefits, and job security...they can damn well take the hit when the bottom drops out.

GM Canada will be getting a little bit smaller...again.

 

[cannuck]

7 minutes ago, taxme said:

Without unions there would probably be no company pension plan or company benefits and a decent wage. Of course some unions have overstepped their boundaries and got themselves involved in politics with union members union dues which should have never been allowed to happen. The NDP received plenty of union members money from unions that supported certain political party's. Without unions today we would be going back to the old days where unions did not exist and workers were treated like shit by their employers. 

So, you now do admit that Canada is not all that great and free, eh? 

It is great, but not very free.  BTW: the NDP not only takes money from the unions, it IS a union.  It was formed by the formal amalgamation of the CCF and the CLC.

[taxme]

35 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's fine, but if unions partied during the good times with high wages, pensions, benefits, and job security...they can damn well take the hit when the bottom drops out.

GM Canada will be getting a little bit smaller...again.

 

Indeed, unions should have put all of their union members dues into money making investments and a piggy bank for leaner and meaner days that may arise like it has risen today for the GM laid off workers. There will be more company's like GM that will be going belly up if this present day prime mistake and his merry band of stupid misfits is allowed to continue on.The kid PM was born with a silver spoon in his big mouth and has no idea about how business in the working world really works.  He thinks like a socialist/communist who still thinks that money does grow on trees and taken from the rich and middle class and giving it to the poor is how things should be done is so stupid. Canada is doomed if the fools put that guy back in power in the next election. Aw well. 

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, taxme said:

...The kid PM was born with a silver spoon in his big mouth and has no idea about how business in the working world really works.  He thinks like a socialist/communist who still thinks that money does grow on trees and taken from the rich and middle class and giving it to the poor is how things should be done is so stupid. Canada is doomed if the fools put that guy back in power in the next election. Aw well. 

 

Maybe that was his plan all along....Canada is a post-national state !

There is more energy devoted to the Alberta vs. Ontario pity olympics in Canadian politics and media than any real solutions going forward that still don't depend on foreign actions that Canada does not control.   Even within Canada, the inter-provincial fighting and bitching continues while Rome burns.

 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Maybe that was his plan all along....Canada is a post-national state !

There is more energy devoted to the Alberta vs. Ontario pity olympics in Canadian politics and media than any real solutions going forward that still don't depend on foreign actions that Canada does not control.   Even within Canada, the inter-provincial fighting and bitching continues while Rome burns.

 

No, the auto sector served you very well in your career when it was employing more people and had numerous plants.  it's fine now to close them because you're retired.  You may think it's just fine to have a small group of wealthy shareholders and corporate executives presiding over an automated operation that employs next to no one.  The irony is, of course, that soon there will be very few buyers of vehicles.  I suppose it will be the ultimate socialist state under your do nothing policy: We can all get picked up by EV fleets.  No different from waiting at the bus stop.  The end of drivers and private vehicles.  I'm surprised you support this.  Sounds very globalist UN Agenda 21...