GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, the auto sector served you very well in your career when it was employing more people and had numerous plants.  it's fine now to close them because you're retired. 

 

There was a lot more to my "career" than just the auto sector....others can do it to.   A GM strike crippled our plant and many others.

Quote

You may think it's just fine to have a small group of wealthy shareholders and corporate executives presiding over an automated operation that employs next to no one.  The irony is, of course, that soon there will be very few buyers of vehicles.  I suppose it will be the ultimate socialist state under your do nothing policy: We can all get picked up by EV fleets.  No different from waiting at the bus stop.  The end of drivers and private vehicles.  I'm surprised you support this.  Sounds very globalist UN Agenda 21...

 

My family never owned a car back in the 60's....got along just fine with bus and trolley tokens.

Still waiting for the first Canadian owned EV car plant too....can play this game as long as you wish.

 

[Zeitgeist]

33 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

There was a lot more to my "career" than just the auto sector....others can do it to.   A GM strike crippled our plant and many others.

 

My family never owned a car back in the 60's....got along just fine with bus and trolley tokens.

Still waiting for the first Canadian owned EV car plant too....can play this game as long as you wish.

 

What are you talking about?  Toronto-based Magna has four EV plants in the US (see first link below). 

You're right though, we can all take public transit, live in towers, do calisthenics, and participate in fake continuous wars that give us a sense of purpose.  If you  want to learn more about such a society, read 1984.  Lol.  You don't get it, do you?  Even capitalism is a construct.  It's underpinned by central banks.  This isn't conspiracy theory nonsense; this is the Breton-Woods order that was established after the Great Depression.  Governments have always manipulated economies, because otherwise they collapse.  This happened most recently in America in 2008 and the government responded.  Some interventions, however, are better than others.  Toronto-based Magna has built and is building more EV tech for the auto sector in the US, employing Americans.  They are also doing a lot in China, a hell of a lot, and it looks just the same as what GM is up to in China (see further below and catch the mention of Trump as one of the reasons this GM battery facility is being built in China).  Yes, GM has an EV tech facility in Markham, Ontario, but the workers are almost all engineers and techies, the privileged.  The same pattern is being followed in the US.  Many fewer works yet more cars sold...

 

https://www.wardsauto.com/industry/magna-e-car-opens-40-million-michigan-facility

In China:

https://business.financialpost.com/transportation/autos/magna-strikes-deal-to-build-electric-vehicles-in-china-with-bjev

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/10/general-motors-build-ev-battery-factory-china-year/

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What are you talking about?  Toronto-based Magna has four EV plants in the US (see first link below). 

You're right though, we can all take public transit, live in towers, do calisthenics, and participate in fake continuous wars that give us a sense of purpose.  If you  want to learn more about such a society, read 1984.  Lol.  You don't get it, do you?

 

Oh I get it alright...everything you post has to involve the U.S. or American market.

Canada will continue to lose auto sector jobs, and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Oh I get it alright...everything you post has to involve the U.S. or American market.

Canada will continue to lose auto sector jobs, and there is nothing you can do about it.

So will the US if governments (people) don't find ways of capturing some of the benefits that auto makers are getting from selling into your market and Canada's.  I'm not especially nationalistic.  I want good things for Canada and good things for the US and all countries.  You clearly do not.  It's more win-lose.  Misanthropes are rare breeds, but they do exist!

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

So will the US if governments (people) don't find ways of capturing some of the benefits that auto makers are getting from selling into your market and Canada's.  I'm not especially nationalistic.  I want good things for Canada and good things for the US and all countries.  You clearly do not.  It's more win-lose.  Misanthropes are rare breeds, but they do exist!

 

You're thinking is still living in the industrial 20th century....the next transition is already underway....for transportation... automation....labour...and many other things.

No amount of Pity Olympics in Canada (or the USA) will save obsolete jobs.

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You're thinking is still living in the industrial 20th century....the next transition is already underway....for transportation... automation....labour...and many other things.

No amount of Pity Olympics in Canada (or the USA) will save obsolete jobs.

 

 

I don't deny that what is underway in the auto sector is not unique.  How are we going to replace those jobs when the only new ones can be done by highly skilled and highly educated people?  Service jobs don't pay nearly as well.  Richard Florida says we should try to make service jobs pay more.  That's the idea behind raising minimum wages.  It just looks like more economic polarization between the rich and poor is coming.  No doubt a dollar goes further than it used to because of cheaper products and efficiencies.  It's hard to see a way forward other than becoming even more "globally competitive", becoming ever more skilled and educated.  Only so many people will participate in this new economy.  Expect more lost young people.  This is what the Occupy Movement and conflict in Charlottesville were about, one from the left and one from the right.  We have too many people who feel like there isn't much out there for them.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't deny that what is underway in the auto sector is not unique.  How are we going to replace those jobs when the only new ones can be done by highly skilled and highly educated people?  Service jobs don't pay nearly as well.  Richard Florida says we should try to make service jobs pay more.  That's the idea behind raising minimum wages.  It just looks like more economic polarization between the rich and poor is coming.  No doubt a dollar goes further than it used to because of cheaper products and efficiencies. 

 

There is no replacing those lost jobs....there will be winners and losers...just as there has always been.   Living standards cannot continue to increase and equality of outcomes will not be guaranteed.   Canada's media is already reporting that the provinces are not ready to adapt to changes it does not control, and it goes far beyond Trump's tariffs.   Has the experience in the Maritimes been so quickly forgotten ?

 

Quote

It's hard to see a way forward other than becoming even more "globally competitive", becoming ever more skilled and educated.  Only so many people will participate in this new economy.  Expect more lost young people.  This is what the Occupy Movement and conflict in Charlottesville were about, one from the left and one from the right.  We have too many people who feel like there isn't much out there for them.  

 

Canadian solutions for Canada...not more of the same reliance and references to what is happening "south of the border".

There will be winners and losers...just as before.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

There is no replacing those lost jobs....there will be winners and losers...just as there has always been.   Living standards cannot continue to increase and equality of outcomes will not be guaranteed.   Canada's media is already reporting that the provinces are not ready to adapt to changes it does not control, and it goes far beyond Trump's tariffs.   Has the experience in the Maritimes been so quickly forgotten ?

 

 

Canadian solutions for Canada...not more of the same reliance and references to what is happening "south of the border".

There will be winners and losers...just as before.

It won't be nearly as easy for less skilled and less educated people as it was.  Even among the privileged and gifted, we are seeing more people competing for less.  The Maritimes experience doesn't really compare.  That economy was centred around fisheries and shipbuilding, an economy that weakened because the fishing stocks depleted and the economy couldn't diversify.  We have a diverse economy that is highly-skilled and well-educated.  It's even highly adaptive.  Young people are fighting harder for less.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

It won't be nearly as easy for less skilled and less educated people as it was.  Even among the privileged and gifted, we are seeing more people competing for less.  The Maritimes experience doesn't really compare.  That economy was centred around fisheries and shipbuilding, an economy that weakened because the fishing stocks depleted and the economy couldn't diversify.  We have a diverse economy that is highly-skilled and well-educated.  It's even highly adaptive.  Young people are fighting harder for less.

 

You dismiss the Maritimes experience too quickly...they were part of Canada's "very diverse" economy.   Murmurings of "Dutch disease" have now given way to full blown industry crises (automotive, energy, steel, etc.), especially in the Age of Trump.   The desperate workers in the east use to be able to flee west for jobs in the "oil patch" and related services...but no more.   Capital is also fleeing to the USA...multinationals are leaving Canada.  

Yeah...I agree that there is much "adapting" to do.  Better ship more logs to China !

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You dismiss the Maritimes experience too quickly...they were part of Canada's "very diverse" economy.   Murmurings of "Dutch disease" have now given way to full blown industry crises (automotive, energy, steel, etc.), especially in the Age of Trump.   The desperate workers in the east use to be able to flee west for jobs in the "oil patch" and related services...but no more.   Capital is also fleeing to the USA...multinationals are leaving Canada.  

Yeah...I agree that there is much "adapting" to do.  Better ship more logs to China !

That's absolute bullshit. Central Canada has a highly educated and skilled workforce.  The Maritimes diversified somewhat with Hibernia, hydro projects, and agriculture.  Nova Scotia's south shore is fairly diverse.  Capital is NOT fleeing Canada to the US.  Canada is a highly desirable country to invest in, with a highly skilled and educated workforce, low unemployment, and a diverse economy.  Canada is an energy superpower.  The industrial problems and hollowing out of the middle class are American, Canadian, European, developed country problems, due to offshoring and automation.  Smarten up and come forward with solutions.  You think Trump is going to rescue you.  You sound like a minion in a fascist regime.  Did you read any of the articles I sent?  The impact of steel and aluminum tariffs on US industry?  The impact of Trump's volatility on GM's decision to move a battery plant to China (to avoid Trump tariffs).  Trump's solutions aren't working.  His tax cut fix is a temporary stimulation based on borrowed money.  If it makes you feel better, continue chanting empty feel good slogans.  I don't know anyone in the logging industry.  Don't stereotype.  Four US GM plants go down on Trump's watch.  A billion in added costs to GM's bottom line due to Trump's steel and aluminum tariffs.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That's absolute bullshit. Central Canada has a highly educated and skilled workforce.  The Maritimes diversified somewhat with Hibernia, hydro projects, and agriculture.  Nova Scotia's south shore is fairly diverse.  Capital is NOT fleeing Canada to the US. 

 

Quite to the contrary....it is true and you refuse to accept it.   To wit:

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/look-how-much-foreign-investment-has-fled-canada-since-the-liberals-took-over

Decades ago, it was Canadian trade policies that screwed New Brunswick's cross border trade in favour of Quebec and Ontario.

 

Quote

Canada is a highly desirable country to invest in, with a highly skilled and educated workforce, low unemployment, and a diverse economy.  Canada is an energy superpower. 

 

Please tell the auto workers in Ontario and Alberta to cheer them up.

 

Quote

The industrial problems and hollowing out of the middle class are American, Canadian, European, developed country problems, due to offshoring and automation.  Smarten up and come forward with solutions.  You think Trump is going to rescue you.  You sound like a minion in a fascist regime. 

 

No, I don't need Trump or any presidient to "rescue me", and I sure as hell don't care what your PM/government does.  The fascist NDP in Alberta just curtailed production like an OPEC oil minister.

 

Quote

Did you read any of the articles I sent?  The impact of steel and aluminum tariffs on US industry?  The impact of Trump's volatility on GM's decision to move a battery plant to China (to avoid Trump tariffs).  Trump's solutions aren't working.  His tax cut fix is a temporary stimulation based on borrowed money.  If it makes you feel better, continue chanting empty feel good slogans.  I don't know anyone in the logging industry.  Don't stereotype.

 

No....I did not read them.  (Sorry...not sorry.)  GM had plants in China long before Trump, and I helped to put them there.

The world is changing faster than you can keep pace.

Edited December 4, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

Hate what Bush says but totally agree. Reality sucks.

[Rue]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The same way we hold polluters responsible: regulation. 

A regulation amends the wording in a statute. A statute such as the Criminal Code can not force people to run a business at a loss. What you are suggesting makes no sense legally or otherwise.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

 

Quote

 

Tax me I left your latest response to me blank. It makes no sense.

To start with third world economies would only want to bring immigrants in  if they developed an economy that required them. The very nature of third and fourth world economies is that they can't sustain anyone. That clearly is something you can't understand as you have demonstrated twice now.

You also do not understand that neither I or anyone else has responded to you saying all immigration is good for all countries. That is your assumption because you project your rigid understanding of life. For you everything is back or white, all or nothing. The economy does not work that way.

Immigration can be beneficial or negative to a country or both, hard as it is for you to conceive that. Immigration is beneficial when it brings in people with required skills and education to build the economy. It can be negative if it brings in people who will not contribute but only burden the state.

You actually prove why we need skilled immigrants. Clearly the education process failed you and someone has to pay taxes to assure there is welfare for you. 

The cold hard reality is immigration is necessary because people like you can not sustain Canada's economy. 

NEXT save the crap suggesting because I find your opinions idiotic I support Trudeau. In fact you remind me of Justin. I can't tell the difference between you 2. Uh uh uh uh uh.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Rue

[cannuck]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Decades ago, it was Canadian trade policies that screwed New Brunswick's cross border trade in favour of Quebec and Ontario.

Just to complete your education on the Feds screwing Canadians to the benefit of Ontario, read about the Crow Rates.

[taxme]

18 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Maybe that was his plan all along....Canada is a post-national state !

There is more energy devoted to the Alberta vs. Ontario pity olympics in Canadian politics and media than any real solutions going forward that still don't depend on foreign actions that Canada does not control.   Even within Canada, the inter-provincial fighting and bitching continues while Rome burns.

 

One can only say that Canada has child minded politicians running Canada. They play with Canada and Canadians like toys and they have no clue as to how to start to go about acting like grown ups. There is a plan or conspiracy to turn Canada into a third world country and the average Canadian refuses to see it. Inter-provincial child fighting and bitching while Canada burns. Our prime mistake and his princess are making a mockery of Canada. So sad to have to watch Canada going down in flames. 

[turningrite]

15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

That's absolute bullshit. Central Canada has a highly educated and skilled workforce.  The Maritimes diversified somewhat with Hibernia, hydro projects, and agriculture.  Nova Scotia's south shore is fairly diverse.  Capital is NOT fleeing Canada to the US.  Canada is a highly desirable country to invest in, with a highly skilled and educated workforce, low unemployment, and a diverse economy.  Canada is an energy superpower.  The industrial problems and hollowing out of the middle class are American, Canadian, European, developed country problems, due to offshoring and automation.  Smarten up and come forward with solutions.  You think Trump is going to rescue you.  You sound like a minion in a fascist regime.  Did you read any of the articles I sent?  The impact of steel and aluminum tariffs on US industry?  The impact of Trump's volatility on GM's decision to move a battery plant to China (to avoid Trump tariffs).  Trump's solutions aren't working.  His tax cut fix is a temporary stimulation based on borrowed money.  If it makes you feel better, continue chanting empty feel good slogans.  I don't know anyone in the logging industry.  Don't stereotype.  Four US GM plants go down on Trump's watch.  A billion in added costs to GM's bottom line due to Trump's steel and aluminum tariffs.

 

Corporations around the world are sitting on cash reserves amounting to trillions of dollars. The U.S. corporate capital surplus in estimated to be in the range of approximately 2 trillion dollars and Canada's stands in the hundreds of billions, which on a proportional basis dwarfs the U.S. surplus. The problem with Trump's corporate tax strategy is that it simply adds to the surplus. Were corporations willing to invest they were already sitting on huge wads of cash so cutting their taxes will likely have little positive impact. Canada's trade deal strategy is not actually aimed at increasing exports, at least of manufactured goods, but is focused on gaining protections for investors in foreign markets.

So, why is there so much cash and so little will to invest domestically? The answer to this question is complex but corporate globalization has served to undermine previously wealthy Western consumer markets while skewed trade rules, particularly the WTO regime, have permitted growing economies in the developing world to close their markets to Western competition. As prosperity in open Western markets stagnates or dwindles, corporations try to squeeze costs, which leads to more investment in low-wage jurisdictions and the spiral spins downward. While Trump's tax policies, which are probably a payoff to his and his party's wealthy backers, contribute to the capital glut his analysis of the trade problem is largely accurate. It's not a consistent approach.

Ultimately, we'll have to examine the corporate-political strategy of promoting a low or stagnant wage but high cost economy in this country which has seen real living standards decline since the 1970s. At some point, people may simply see the model for what it is and rebel, as appears to be happening in France in the wake of increasing carbon taxation on fuel, which for many seems to be a last straw. It is difficult to imagine that there won't be a reaction, even in fragmented, stolid Canada, as historically such reactions are overwhelming the rule rather than the exception when wrenching economic change undermines stability and individual security. Call the reaction populism or whatever else some might term it, but it's being driven by conditions not created by the "deplorables" but by the very economic and political elites that reflexively denounce it.

Edited December 4, 2018 by turningrite

[Zeitgeist]

Canada is doing remarkably well compared to the vast majority of countries, but current corporate trends are starving the middle class.  Government has borrowed money to prop up the middle class.  It’s as simple as this: Good incomes make good markets.  Low incomes shrink markets.  No doubt the upper classes are doing great. Will they buy all the homes, cars, and devices companies produce?  You better hope so. 

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is doing remarkably well compared to the vast majority of countries, but current corporate trends are starving the middle class.

 

Current government trends are also "starving the middle class"...even more so.

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Current government trends are also "starving the middle class"...even more so.

Very true. Borrowed money to pay for tax cuts will create massive deficits that everyone gets to pay off.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Ford Motor Company will be next to announce jobs cutting and plant closures, and Canada will not be spared its share of the haircut.

Morgan Stanley Predicts Ford to Cut 25,000 Jobs in Overhaul

Edited December 5, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Ford Motor Company will be next to announce jobs cutting and plant closures, and Canada will not be spared it's share of the haircut.

Morgan Stanley Predicts Ford to Cut 25,000 Jobs in Overhaul

If it happens, the US won’t be left out. Don’t worry, there will be plenty of suffering to go round.  You’re gonna luv it!

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

If it happens, the US won’t be left out. Don’t worry, there will be plenty of suffering to go round.  You’re gonna luv it!

 

Of course the U.S. will not be left out, but Ford has a lot more based in the United States than in Canada.   The St. Thomas plant already closed down in 2011.

There will always be "suffering"...winners and losers.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Of course the U.S. will not be left out, but Ford has a lot more based in the United States than in Canada.   The St. Thomas plant already closed down in 2011.

There will always be "suffering"...winners and losers.

It’s a silly game you’re playing.  Whether or not you have more plants proportionally than Canada I don’t know.  Salvage what you can. 

[Zeitgeist]

Gives you a sense of the scale of the loss:

https://goo.gl/images/iDEzeD