Bernier criticizes Trudeau's "extreme multiculturalism"

[Argus]

31 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Alternatively, most Canadians support immigration so politicians aren't scared of being called racist, they're scared of losing votes.  When a survey comes along showing that most Canadians do not support immigration, politicians will immediately change their stance.

Most Canadians, as we've already seen, don't even know how many immigrations we're bringing in. When they find out, their support goes down. 

It's very hard for Canadians to express a contrary view of immigration since they get no contrary views. All political parties and all major media march in lockstep, and the instant anyone veers even slightly off cue the others tear him or her to shreds. So the only thing most Canadians ever hear about immigration is how wonderful it is in every way, how great it is for Canada, and how wonderful Canadians are for loving immigrants.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. So because you have no such concerns, other people's concerns are irrelevant and unreasonable.

No, you in fact, deleted my answer without responding and then said 'try again'. Here is my answer again. Try responding to it this time.

2. How blind are you? France? Britain? Spain? Canada? All have separatist groups and all have faced or are facing the threat of separation because of that. Remember that country that used be called Czechoslovakia? It doesn't exist. Ukraine? That was all about ethnic Russians on one side. Same thing for Georgia. Sudan, with Arabs to the north and Black Africans to the south. Rwanda sound familiar?  Nigeria and Kenya? Muslims against Christians. Yemen? Shiites against Suunis. There are more examples than you can shake a stick at. But there are very, very, very few of diverse nations surviving and thriving without fighting very hard against the disunity caused by their diversity. 

 

1. Every concern is reasonable in context and in measure.

2. You said I didn't answer your question... so here it is: "How blind am I ?  Answer: Not.  Not blind". 

You gave many examples of dis-unified country but I don't take immigration as the cause of this unhappiness in the least.  I ask you to find a unified and happy country for comparison.  Weimar Germany also blamed others for problems the problems were economic and identity-driven.

[Argus]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You gave many examples of dis-unified country but I don't take immigration as the cause of this unhappiness in the least.  I ask you to find a unified and happy country for comparison.  Weimar Germany also blamed others for problems the problems were economic and identity-driven.

You are weaseling around this. I didn't say immigration was the cause of disunity. I said sizeable different ethnic/cultural groups within a state was. And that we were risking growing such groups in Canada to match the ones in other countries. The riots and violence in the UK, France and Germany caused their leaders to recognize they made a mistake in implementing multiculturalism and not stressing the need for newcomers to integrate. And referencing Germany does not help your case, unless you want to assert that the modern European governments are fascist.

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.
She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451

Edited August 17, 2018 by Argus

[Zeitgeist]

The harmony among diverse groups in Canada is impressive.  I think at least some of that can be attributed to an attitude of multiculturalism.  No need to look for conflict where it doesn't exist, not that there aren't tensions between groups from time to time.  It's hard to think of a more harmonious society in the world today.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

1. You are weaseling around this. I didn't say immigration was the cause of disunity. I said sizeable different ethnic/cultural groups within a state was.

2. And that we were risking growing such groups in Canada to match the ones in other countries.

3. The riots and violence in the UK, France and Germany caused their leaders to recognize they made a mistake in implementing multiculturalism...

1. Ok, seems pretty related but ok.

2. Ok, except 2nd generation and 3rd generation Canadians ... the ones I know seem pretty assimilated anyway.

3. I lived in France, there is no Multiculturalism there.  There are barriers to non-"French" people from mixing, let's say.  They have suburban towns which are homogeneous accumulations of people from their colonies.  Not the same as here.

I don't see it happening here, sorry.

[turningrite]

5 hours ago, dialamah said:

Alternatively, most Canadians support immigration so politicians aren't scared of being called racist, they're scared of losing votes.  When a survey comes along showing that most Canadians do not support immigration, politicians will immediately change their stance.

That poll is a pretty weak gauge of public attitudes about immigration. Rempel is correct to note that it essentially amounts to spin. Other polling and data have been more enlightening. It came to light a few months ago, as reported on the CBC's website, that internal polling done by the federal government indicated a drop in support for immigration levels when respondents were informed of the actual intake numbers:

"Internal data prepared by the Immigration Department for a committee of deputy ministers suggests a majority of Canadians supports current immigration levels, but this support drops when Canadians are informed of how many immigrants actually arrive every year." (See link to article below.)

This suggests that the government has been pursuing a cynical 'keep 'em stupid, keep 'em happy' strategy as majority support is sustained only in the absence of accurate information.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/immigration-public-support-1.4619762

Edited August 18, 2018 by turningrite

[turningrite]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The harmony among diverse groups in Canada is impressive.  I think at least some of that can be attributed to an attitude of multiculturalism.  No need to look for conflict where it doesn't exist, not that there aren't tensions between groups from time to time.  It's hard to think of a more harmonious society in the world today.

Canada has long been a multicultural country. This was the case well before "official" multiculturalism became public policy. I'm retired and yet when I attended school many decades ago my classmates represented at least a dozen or more ethnic nationalities. Traditional Canadian multiculturalism was essentially organic and inherently integrative. The emerging multiculturalism we're now witnessing appears to be different in some aspects, sometimes manifesting as tribal chauvinism with segregationist tendencies. I think we have to recognize the differences and take remedial action before it's too late to reset the clock. Bernier is doing us all a favor by raising his concerns.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

You are weaseling around this. I didn't say immigration was the cause of disunity. I said sizeable different ethnic/cultural groups within a state was.

The biggest group causing the disunity is entirely ideological in nature not ethnic or cultural.  They should just learn their place, get with the program and start assimilating.

[marcus]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

When did he do this? Perhaps you have a quote you can cite? Or are you just resorting to your usual smear tactics?

Don't try to normalize bigotry. Even the Cons are distancing themselves from Bernier.

[turningrite]

7 hours ago, marcus said:

Even the Cons are distancing themselves from Bernier.

I suspect the Conservatives aren't so much distancing themselves from Bernier as wincing at the fact that his comments demonstrate the degree to which they too are part of the anti-democratic elitist consensus on immigration and cultural issues that has long dominated official Ottawa. Polling, including the large CBC Angus-Reid poll on the topic in 2016, suggests that Bernier's views reflect majority mainstream concerns. As Margaret Wente noted in a column this week in the Globe and Mail, [Bernier's] views are also popular because mainstream politicians have been reluctant to allow an outlet for legitimate concerns over immigration and refugee policy." Our federal politicians, among all the traditional mainstream parties, seem worried that a little too much democracy might break out. Well, they had it coming. 

[Argus]

8 hours ago, marcus said:

Don't try to normalize bigotry. Even the Cons are distancing themselves from Bernier.

So you can't actually address the question of what he said that wsa racist or bigoted?

I"m not interested in what party hacks in the Tory party have to say. People like Tony Clement represent the worst of Canadian politics; greasy backroom professional politicians who never say what they mean and never mean what they say. Their attacks on Bernier are because they see his statements as trying to push himself, Scheer's rival, forward into more prominence. And in Canada, backbench MPs have no freedom to speak their minds on any subject at any time through any medium. 

Which is why we have so many cretins in office. Few accomplished individuals have much interest in being trained seals.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what was racist about what Bernier said. My guess is that will never happen.

[scribblet]

11 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I suspect the Conservatives aren't so much distancing themselves from Bernier as wincing at the fact that his comments demonstrate the degree to which they too are part of the anti-democratic elitist consensus on immigration and cultural issues that has long dominated official Ottawa. Polling, including the large CBC Angus-Reid poll on the topic in 2016, suggests that Bernier's views reflect majority mainstream concerns. As Margaret Wente noted in a column this week in the Globe and Mail, [Bernier's] views are also popular because mainstream politicians have been reluctant to allow an outlet for legitimate concerns over immigration and refugee policy." Our federal politicians, among all the traditional mainstream parties, seem worried that a little too much democracy might break out. Well, they had it coming. 

He does reflect mainstream thought.  Thought which isn't bigotry or racism, just a concern about our policies, illegal migrants and the apparent subjugation of our own culture, of which Trudeau says there isn't any, anyway.  Most people are fine with immigration, they just don't want anti Semites receiving awards etc.

If you follow Bernier on Twitter read CBC's Rosemary Barton's offensive and biased attack on what he said.  CBC is doubling down on its hyper-partisan fake news smear against Bernier. So be warned, challenge the state broadcaster and you will be destroyed. CBC has any credibility they had over this one.  

 

[turningrite]

6 minutes ago, scribblet said:

He does reflect mainstream thought.  Thought which isn't bigotry or racism, just a concern about our policies, illegal migrants and the apparent subjugation of our own culture, of which Trudeau says there isn't any, anyway.  Most people are fine with immigration, they just don't want anti Semites receiving awards etc.

If you follow Bernier on Twitter read CBC's Rosemary Barton's offensive and biased attack on what he said.  CBC is doubling down on its hyper-partisan fake news smear against Bernier. So be warned, challenge the state broadcaster and you will be destroyed. CBC has any credibility they had over this one.  

 

I watched a news broadcast on a private network the other day where the news anchor seemed equally dismissive of Bernier's comments. A 'tsk, tsk,' tone was clearly prevalent in her presentation of the issue. Canada's mainstream media, with few exceptions, tend to mimic elitist political perspectives. It's a highly concentrated industry that's reflective of what Noam Chomsky and others have characterized as the "propaganda model," which functions to sustain public support for government and corporate agendas in capitalist democracies. We often don't even realize the extent to which our attitudes are being shaped and manipulated.

[Michael Hardner]

44 minutes ago, turningrite said:

1. Canada's mainstream media, with few exceptions, tend to mimic elitist political perspectives.

2. It's a highly concentrated industry that's reflective of what Noam Chomsky and others have characterized as the "propaganda model," which functions to sustain public support for government and corporate agendas in capitalist democracies.

3. We often don't even realize the extent to which our attitudes are being shaped and manipulated.

1. This is a great example of an outsider view.  If working people in Toronto are considered 'elitist' then I guess you're right, but it's not mimickry.  Believe it or not many people believe these things and it's arrogance to think otherwise.

2. Everyone I know openly holds these values, including workmates.  Forgive me if I don't view your 'industry' comment as a conspiracy theory as a result, since you are belittling our point of view as a scheme.

3. You are far from being 'shaped'.  Your model for governmental social engineering doesn't even pass the test of your own example.

[turningrite]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This is a great example of an outsider view.  If working people in Toronto are considered 'elitist' then I guess you're right, but it's not mimickry.  Believe it or not many people believe these things and it's arrogance to think otherwise.

2. Everyone I know openly holds these values, including workmates.  Forgive me if I don't view your 'industry' comment as a conspiracy theory as a result, since you are belittling our point of view as a scheme.

3. You are far from being 'shaped'.  Your model for governmental social engineering doesn't even pass the test of your own example.

1.) Oh my, I've hit a nerve. If you don't believe we're being manipulated you've become desensitized and lost perspective. Occasionally, glimmers of objectivity are permitted to seep through the haze of officially sanctioned messaging - perhaps, if I want to get truly cynical here, to create an aura of objectivity - but not often enough to render our media truly independent. The editorial gist of most news outlets is pretty firmly locked down. We're told what we should and even must believe. We're informed about things the government and elites want us to know. A fairly recent CBC piece demonstrated the degree to which government manipulates information about our immigration program in order to sustain public support (link 1, below) and a piece in a Postmedia news outlet last year exposed the result of a federal government study, which was never publicly released, which illustrated growing concerns about Canada's ability to absorb high levels of immigration (link 2, below). But rosy views still dominate media coverage, in conjunction with government and corporate objectives. Should we be surprised?

2.) Everybody you know holds these values, including workmates? You apparently live in splendid isolation. The media in this country in conjunction with the economic elites and their political servants communicate consensus or "acceptable" positions on issues like immigration and multiculturalism. If you think "everybody" believes the elite perspective, perhaps you didn't see the CBC-Angus Reid poll a couple years ago illustrating the extent of skepticism about the sunny ways view of multiculturalism. (link 3, below)

3.) What "example" are you referencing? Please be more specific.

1. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/immigration-public-support-1.4619762

2. https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canada-struggling-to-absorb-immigrants-internal-report-says

3. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194

Edited August 19, 2018 by turningrite

[Argus]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Everyone I know openly holds these values, including workmates.  Forgive me if I don't view your 'industry' comment as a conspiracy theory as a result, since you are belittling our point of view as a scheme.

Did everyone you know oppose Kellie Lietch's suggestion of values testing for would-be immigrants? Did they all oppose the government wanting to ban niqabs at citizenship ceremonies? The media was universal in their positions on these issues, but polls showed the great majority of Canadians were on the other side of the fence - but those views were  never EVER represented in the national media.

[Centerpiece]

Bernier's comments carry a lot more weight when juxtaposed on Trudeau's belief that Canada has "no core identity.....no mainstream". Put that together with "extreme" diversity - and what is there to build on for new Canadians? Throw in the Liberal government's Orwellian open borders policy and you have a recipe for eventual disaster. Our core identity is rooted in history - a history that more and more, is left untaught in our schools - except for "apologies" that encourage us to feel guilty of the thriving democracy that we have built. This government has taken the pride out of being Canadian - the glory of our history - as mundane as humble Canadians make it - the pride of doing most things right. I want my Canada back! 

[marcus]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what was racist about what Bernier said. My guess is that will never happen.

You're a bigot who denies being a bigot. Of course you will deny his comments as being bigoted.

I don't have the time or the patience to go through the back and forth you and I have gone through before in regards to bigotry, stereotyping and ignorance.

Here is a series of responses to Bernier's tweets by Erin Tolley which I fully agree with:

 

[marcus]

Here is a response to "Radical Multiculturalism". 

Sign vandalized after MP Maxime Bernier calls out Winnipeg park for 'extreme multiculturalism'

Days after Conservative MP Maxime Bernier singled out a Winnipeg park named after a Pakistani leader in an attempt to demonstrate that multiculturalism has gone too far, the park's new sign was vandalized.

 

 

 

[turningrite]

2 hours ago, marcus said:

You're a bigot who denies being a bigot. Of course you will deny his comments as being bigoted.

I don't have the time or the patience to go through the back and forth you and I have gone through before in regards to bigotry, stereotyping and ignorance.

Here is a series of responses to Bernier's tweets by Erin Tolley which I fully agree with:

 

Do you think posting the views of a single academic proves your case? Academia has become a focal point for ideological bias in non-STEM fields in the West in general and in Canada. The scariest comment in the string in the last, where Ms. Tolley states: "Citizens take their cues from opinion leaders. Don't underestimate the importance of leadership." Isn't this an avowedly elitist perspective? She might as well have said the plebs take their cues from their betters. Revolutions have been fought in the West to overturn this view. We should consider whether real democracy can survive this kind of elitist progressivism.

Edited August 19, 2018 by turningrite

[marcus]

3 hours ago, turningrite said:

Do you think posting the views of a single academic proves your case? Academia has become a focal point for ideological bias in non-STEM fields in the West in general and in Canada.

Brushing aside her comments because she is an academic is a bizarre way to try to win a debate. Generalizing like that does not win any points. That said, I do accept and acknowledge that there is a problem in Academia when it comes to freedom of speech, but her comments and the points she's making on Bernier's twitter comments has nothing to do with that.

Quote

The scariest comment in the string in the last, where Ms. Tolley states: "Citizens take their cues from opinion leaders. Don't underestimate the importance of leadership." Isn't this an avowedly elitist perspective?

See my previous post where the sign at the park in Winnipeg has been vandalized after Bernier's comment. The point has been made. It's a fact. Not sure why this simple fact is scary to you. 

Her main point is that there is no such thing as radical multiculturalism. We have a base in our laws and a robust and dynamic immigration system that contradicts what Bernier is saying. Overall, our immigration system is a huge a positive for Canada.  

Some say that Bernier is making these comments to increase donations from a sector of society that feeds off of bigotry. Personally, I believe Bernier's comments are based on his ignorance. Pure and simple. There is a lot of myth in Bernier's rants.

When you see someone flinch when a park is named after a non-white guy, there is an underlying reason for that. They're uncomfortable with "the others". I see that on here.

Edited August 19, 2018 by marcus

[eyeball]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:34 AM, turningrite said:

As Margaret Wente noted in a column this week in the Globe and Mail, [Bernier's] views are also popular because mainstream politicians have been reluctant to allow an outlet for legitimate concerns over immigration and refugee policy." Our federal politicians, among all the traditional mainstream parties, seem worried that a little too much democracy might break out. Well, they had it coming. 

As I've pointed out Margaret Wentes ilk laughed their silly asses off anytime people pointed out how Western policies would result in both an abundance of refugees and migrants around the world not to mention the society of racists we would very likely become in reaction to that 

We had it coming and we haven't seen anything yet. Our 'concern' will cause us to become monsters next.

Edited August 19, 2018 by eyeball

[Argus]

14 hours ago, marcus said:

You're a bigot who denies being a bigot. Of course you will deny his comments as being bigoted.

It's so sad you try to back up your unfounded and unsupported accusation against Bernier with a similar accusation against me. I ask you again to respond to my question. If you cannot,  then have the integrity to retract it.

Here is Bernier's comment. Tell me what was racist about it. Or shut up and slink away with your weaselly tail between your legs.

“Canada has always been a diverse country and this is part of who we are. I love this Canada,” read one of the tweets. “But there is a difference between recognizing diversity and pushing for ever more of it. Something infinitely diverse has no core identity and ceases to exist.”

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

14 hours ago, marcus said:

Here is a response to "Radical Multiculturalism". 

Sign vandalized after MP Maxime Bernier calls out Winnipeg park for 'extreme multiculturalism'

Days after Conservative MP Maxime Bernier singled out a Winnipeg park named after a Pakistani leader in an attempt to demonstrate that multiculturalism has gone too far, the park's new sign was vandalized.

It's ironic that the "Pakistani leader" you are talking about was the founder of Pakistan, the man who decided that Muslims could not live together in the same nation as Hindus, and who then campaigned, along with his party, the Muslim league, for a separate nation for Muslims. Enormous violence and millions of deaths followed. And yet you find nothing wrong with naming a park after him in praise of the man while denouncing Sir John A Macdonald!

So in your thrilling defense of diversity you are decrying the vandalism against a man who loathed diversity and killed millions to avoid it!

Ah progressives! The ultimate in hypocrites.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

It's ironic that the "Pakistani leader" you are talking about was the founder of Pakistan, the man who decided that Muslims could not live together in the same nation as Hindus, and who then campaigned, along with his party, the Muslim league, for a separate nation for Muslims. Enormous violence and millions of deaths followed. And yet you find nothing wrong with naming a park after him in praise of the man while denouncing Sir John A Macdonald!

So in your thrilling defense of diversity you are decrying the vandalism against a man who loathed diversity and killed millions to avoid it!

Ah progressives! The ultimate in hypocrites.

Brilliant.