The Battle of Charlottesville

[Hal 9000]

39 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you really think he distanced himself or are you just being politically correct?

I do!  Trump's daughter and son-in-law are jews and Trump has friends who are black people.  I know you people want to say that he embodies everything evil, but common sense would indicate that he's really not a fan of anti-jewish chants.  I think Trump knows the conundrum protecting free speech and hateful dialogue.  It might be easy for leftist people to agree that people should be have their rights stripped if they think and say bad things, but there is a first amendment (and in Canada - charter of rights).   

 

[Hal 9000]

16 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Trump should simply have condemned the alt right this week without equivocation. He's not the ref here, or a journalist, he's the President, one who was loudly supported by the alt right during the campaign. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/charles-krauthammer-trump-a-moral-disgrace-fox-news_us_5993c9f1e4b04b19336176fe

You're right, he's not a ref or a journalist, but you want him to be just that.  You want him to pre-judge and castigate one side more than the other - which he has done.  You think he should sit on a panel with Don lemon and spew just how bad that group is.  He has said they're bad, he has distanced himself, but by the same token, he should try to temper down the other side too - I mean, this isn't the first BLM/Antifa rally that has included violence.  Regardless of who we find more morally reprehensible, both sides came for violence, I think he's right to try and address both parties.  Without the media spin on Trump's words, I truly believe most people would be OK with Trumps statements.

[Hal 9000]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do nothing about them, eh?  What about Imams who preach violence against Jews ... Do nothing about them and they'll go away?   Perhaps doing nothing about sites that recruit for ISIS will make them go away?   What do you think?

Well, you can't really compare a group that is actually violent with a group that spews hatred - but OK.  

Yes, the WN's and in fact any protest is only worthwhile if people and especially cameras show up.  If the WN's had a rally and no one showed up to counter and no cameras showed up, what do you have?  Nothing, you have a hundred of so idiots screaming chants to ...nobody!  It's like that bullying commercial, where the bully is the only person in the park, they only way to stop those guys is to marginalize them and ignore them.  What they have in common with ISIS is that the coverage they got all week strengthens them.  They're not emboldened by Trump, they're emboldened because they've had plenty of airtime from the media who have try to link Trump to them.  They've always been around, but for the last 40 or 50 years they were a laughing stock, no one cared and no one paid them any attention.  That's why I say, the counter-protest will only strengthen and make the situation worse - you watch!

[Hal 9000]

18 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Do nothing, stay indoors, keep your head down and you'll probably be OK. 

A bully is only a bully because he has a crowd.

[Wilber]

Slippery slopes go both ways.

[Argus]

Pretty much as I've been saying from the start. The police have a huge share of the guilt in what happened in Charlottesville.

Yet beyond this, Saturday's events represent a serious failure of government. Neither the death of Heyer nor the general mayhem were inevitable. They could have been prevented if authorities there had confronted the situation sensibly. The first failing was that of Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, Charlottesville Mayor Mike Signer, and the police in failing to separate the Nazis from the counter-protesters who showed up to meet them.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a-government-failure-in-charlottesville/article/2631487

But while the president may have muddied the waters for those who were not present on those Virginia streets last weekend, the protesters, reporters, and clergy present understand the true character of the chaos: violence on Friday night, with police asleep at the switch, led to an uneasy atmosphere Saturday morning. Police again played the bystander’s role the next morning, fanning a tense morning into a bloody afternoon of pitched battles in the public street.

https://thinkprogress.org/how-police-failed-charlottesville-e191f6eb8e52/

In the major moral crisis growing out of Charlottesville, a lot of attention has been paid to Trump’s lack of leadership.

But the whole nation has a stake in a related matter, the inaction of the local police.

The Charlottesville Police Department was not caught unawares. It had anticipated a crowd of from 2,000 to 6,000 people, and had promised a presence with assistance from the Virginia State Police.

Yet when violence and bloodshed broke out at Emancipation Park, witnesses complained to the New York Times that “There was no police presence…. We were watching people punch each other; people were bleeding all the while police were inside of barricades at the park, watching.”

https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/08/14/charlottesville-police-inaction-part-nationwide-development/

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Argus

[Hal 9000]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Pretty much as I've been saying from the start. The police have a huge share of the guilt in what happened in Charlottesville.

Yet beyond this, Saturday's events represent a serious failure of government. Neither the death of Heyer nor the general mayhem were inevitable. They could have been prevented if authorities there had confronted the situation sensibly. The first failing was that of Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, Charlottesville Mayor Mike Signer, and the police in failing to separate the Nazis from the counter-protesters who showed up to meet them.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a-government-failure-in-charlottesville/article/2631487

I do think there should be an investigation as to why the police stood down.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 8/15/2017 at 0:02 AM, The_Squid said:

Those were defensive torches!

LOL post of the thread so far

[Omni]

I guess it's to be expected how the right wingers here and elsewhere feel somewhat emboldened by the recent events in Virginia, and especially those who demonstrate the more racist, bigoted attitudes feel somewhat empowered. Especially since their racist leader Trump supports their ideals. You have one here who is so loopy as to suggest the neo nazi, white supremacist murderer driving the car in Charlottesvile "was maybe hired by the anti racists" Good god!  Of course that poster as we know has immersed themselves blindly in religion. Then there is another who tries to make sick backhanded jokes about the terrorism that presides in the country, and has so since it's inception. 

That person has identified as  mericun and so it's understandable. I suggest the others who hold the same ideals slither across the border, and unite with a culture that will be much more accepting of your racist ideals.

[eyeball]

 

On 8/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

Nazi = National SOCIALIST...

 

 

On 8/15/2017 at 2:32 PM, LonJowett said:

That's always a convincing argument to people who have never read anything about what the Nazis stood for and who their enemies were.

No, its quite clear it doesn't even convince dummies who are just as stupid and putatively on the same side in this Battle of Charlottesville as people who try to make it.

 

 

On 8/15/2017 at 2:07 PM, betsy said:

 

Uh......we differ with Nazism.    In my books, it's right up there with Communism -  evil.

I suppose Nazism is to extreme right as Communism is to extreme left.

 

 

On 8/15/2017 at 2:18 PM, taxme said:

Nazi's and communists despised each other. I often wonder what the world would have been like if the Nazi's had won the war?  If communism had been defeated, I think that all of those people and countries that had to live under the tyranny of communism after the war would not have happened. All those innocent victims of communism would not have had to endure a life misery and murder for all those decades. But I guess we will never know now, will we? 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by eyeball

[eyeball]

On 8/15/2017 at 2:32 PM, Argus said:

There's just no end to the idiocy of the left and their demands to erase history that offends their delicate sensibilities.

Well, I guess that's what Argus' ilk gets for insisting on being so offensive in the present.

There's a difference between shutting down free speech and flushing a toilet.

[eyeball]

On 8/15/2017 at 3:48 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

Why don't you explain slowly to this poor unread pleb how National Socialism isn't just another form of Socialism?

It was good enough for the National Conservatism in the DNVP that gave Hitler the majority he needed.

You disingenuous plebes are always on the wrong side of history.

[Omni]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well, I guess that's what Argus' ilk gets for insisting on being so offensive in the present.

There's a difference between shutting down free speech and flushing a toilet.

The bigots continue to display their bigotry. They got not much else else after all.

[eyeball]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:00 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

1920s

Yes. By the 30's it finally descended to the level of the sycophantic classes, the wealthy and entitled - the good old right-wing.  If you've seen one right-wing you've seen them all.  See France 1789 but of course a learned historian like yourself should already know that. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

What's all the fuss in Canada about "Nazis" in the USA ?

Nazis were fine with a young Pierre Trudeau....better start burning his books & photos.  

Quote

Trudeau, born into wealth, was educated in a Jesuit-run classical college. He accepted the church's politics as well as its morality. And in the Quebec of Trudeau's youth, the church believed the successful nations were the "corporatist" states: Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal.

https://thetyee.ca/Books/2006/09/14/Trudeau/

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

On 8/16/2017 at 5:58 AM, betsy said:

They'll do anything just to get rid of Trump.  That's all the alt left care about.

See?   That's........... pure, blind hate!

Of course they want him gone.  He's incapable, and immoral.  Even his own party is at war with him now.

Hero worshippers and clueless rubes don't see it.  For the rest of us, it's not necessary to lie - just look at what is happening.

The big winners are white nationalist types like taxme, who has trumpeted the arrival of 'peaceful white nationalism' (his words) to the mainstream.

That's what I meant by the Republican Party in shambles.

[Omni]

On 8/16/2017 at 2:58 AM, betsy said:

They'll do anything just to get rid of Trump.  That's all the alt left care about.

See?   That's........... pure, blind hate!

And now even the right are waking up as well. The blindness is simply that which is displayed by those so far right as to be able to somehow ignore the true character Trump continually displays. He supports racism, bigotry, white supremacy, and he displays it regularly. One has to assume only like minded people fail to admit the obvious.

[SpankyMcFarland]

13 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I do!  Trump's daughter and son-in-law are jews and Trump has friends who are black people.  I know you people want to say that he embodies everything evil, but common sense would indicate that he's really not a fan of anti-jewish chants.  I think Trump knows the conundrum protecting free speech and hateful dialogue.  It might be easy for leftist people to agree that people should be have their rights stripped if they think and say bad things, but there is a first amendment (and in Canada - charter of rights).   

 

Those personal associations don't immunize Trump. 'Has friends who are black people' is even weaker than 'many of my friends are black', the classic, clumsy defence of racist behaviour. Trump isn't just a guy on the street free to mouth off as he likes. As President he's supposed to set an example and bring the nation together.  

 He does not 'embody everything evil' - he's too empty for that. He's simply an unprincipled chancer who saw a way to the White House by mobilizing the alt right. 

[DogOnPorch]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

It was good enough for the National Conservatism in the DNVP that gave Hitler the majority he needed.

You disingenuous plebes are always on the wrong side of history.

 

Folks that voted for Obama...TWICE...voted for Donald J Trump.

Enjoy.

Edited August 17, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I do think there should be an investigation as to why the police stood down.

There is some speculation on right wing sites - not the Nazi types, because they seem to be quite happy with how things worked out - that the democratic governor and democratic mayor told the police to let things go because they wanted street fights to showcase how nasty the 'alt right' was.

[Omni]

15 minutes ago, Argus said:

There is some speculation on right wing sites - not the Nazi types, because they seem to be quite happy with how things worked out - that the democratic governor and democratic mayor told the police to let things go because they wanted street fights to showcase how nasty the 'alt right' was.

And the alt right was more than happy to provide the nastiness. 

[Argus]

An example of how widely the far right uses the accusations of Nazis and racists is the recent cancellation of a panel discussion at Ryerson University. Ironically, the discussion was supposed to be about free speech being impaired on campuses, but has been cancelled for fear of violence from Left wing activists.

“After a thorough security review, the University has concluded that Ryerson is not equipped to provide the necessary level of public safety for the event to go forward,” he wrote in an emailed statement. “In light of recent events, Ryerson University is prioritizing campus safety.”
Christeen Elizabeth, one of the organizers of a planned rally against the event — “No Fascists in Our City!”, the Facebook event page for which originally featured a header photo of a crossed-out swastika, before the photo was changed Wednesday — said it was important to speak out against what she sees as violence against oppressed groups.

“Transphobia is violence, Islamophobia is violence. Violence is contextual,” she said. “We can’t be complicit in this.”

And again you see this frenzied sort of zealotry on the part of the hard left that speech they don't approve of constitutes 'violence'. That being the case, they feel using actual physical violence in response is justified. This helps to explain the growing violence of the Left against any sort of right wing demonstration or discussion. That is a violence we can see implicitly endorsed by several of the Left wing posters here.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/facing-pushback-ryerson-cancels-panel-discussion-on-campus-free-speech/wcm/65986f6f-d393-4213-b10d-003e1c348c44

Edited August 17, 2017 by Argus

[Omni]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

And again you see this frenzied sort of zealotry on the part of the hard left that speech they don't approve of constitutes 'violence'. That being the case, they feel using actual physical violence in response is justified. This helps to explain the growing violence of the Left against any sort of right wing demonstration or discussion. That is a violence we can see implicitly endorsed by several of the Left wing posters here.

Apparently you haven't bothered to review the videos of Charlottesville to see who actually arrived at the "party" with violence in mind. Perhaps you also agree with Betsy that the nazi murderer driving the car was hired by those who showed up to oppose the nazi's.

[scribblet]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

There is some speculation on right wing sites - not the Nazi types, because they seem to be quite happy with how things worked out - that the democratic governor and democratic mayor told the police to let things go because they wanted street fights to showcase how nasty the 'alt right' was.

Wouldn't be surprised,  but the vice-mayor of Charlottesville and member of the Virginia Board of Education has stepped down

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2016/12/01/virginia-board-of-education-member-resigns-after-vulgar-tweets-surface/?utm_term=.4548471db8b5

This all reminds me of the Taliban pulling down statues, not much different from each other really.   

Edited August 17, 2017 by scribblet

[Omni]

12 minutes ago, scribblet said:

This all reminds me of the Taliban pulling down statues, not much different from each other really.  

Except in this case, the statues being moved, not torn down, are more representative OF the Taliban.