Kathleen Wynne plays the Trump card, announces $15 minimum wage by 2019!

[overthere]

$15 min wage was already announced and underway by Notley in Alberta-in 2015.

[dialamah]

70 years of research demonstrates that raising minimum wage does not result in fewer jobs.  Making the private sector pay people a livable wage reduces reliance on government handouts and actually correlates with an improved economy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-effect-on-jobs-2016-5

 

[bush_cheney2004]

Actual data for Canada (not U.S. statistics)  also demonstrate that raising the minimum wage has little if any impact on poverty or employment, except for younger workers who do suffer.

 

Quote

"The link with poverty and the minimum wage is almost zero," said Stephen Gordon, an economics professor at the University of Laval in Quebec City. "Lots of people who earn the minimum wage are not in poverty, and a lot in poverty don't earn the minimum wage -- the problem is they're not working, or the number of hours they get."

The same is mostly true of the minimum wage's effect on employment, at least in the short term, according to Morley Gunderson, professor of economics at the University of Toronto.

...Gunderson and Gordon each said that one section of Canada's labor market has suffered as the minimum wage has increased: young workers. According to Gunderson, the available data suggests that for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, teenage employment falls by 3 percent to 6 percent.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-10-16/canada-shows-minimum-wage-has-minimal-effect

 

[Goddess]

This was an interesting article:

http://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-effect-on-jobs-2016-5

 

I wish we were more outraged about the salaries of CEO's than the idea of raising minimum wage.

[H10]

On 5/30/2017 at 6:00 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Capitalism is a race to the bottom, for better or worse. We live in a global economy, not in a bubble. What this will do is make more jobs go overseas (or to other provinces) or to illegal immigrants or to automated machines.

It's going to be $14 in January, just in time for the election of course.  Enough to see the short term but not the long term effects of such a drastic jump many small businesses won't be able to absorb.  The rollout for this is way too quick.

And no, actually it's better to have a job that pays mediocre than to have no job.

No, employers will make more money if everyone is earning a living wage.  I know so many poor people who don't go out because they don't have money but have jobs paying nothing.  Screw it, I am not subsidizing your business, you can't afford to hire someone don't!

[peoples advocate]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎30 at 11:25 AM, Argus said:

If you believe 30% is 'most'. 

If you believe $11.50 an hour is 'nothing'.

Why would 'deserve' have any place in such a discussion? No one deserves any wage other than what they can command because of their competence, skills and education.

Ontario manufacturing facilities are abandoning the province due to high costs here. They're moving to the US, where taxes are lower, electricity costs are lower, the bureaucracy is less binding, and there are already lower wages. This will simply accelerate that process. Other business will accelerate their movement to automation, especially in the service industry. Unemployment will rise.

 

 

On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎01 at 1:22 PM, PIK said:

Of course liberals don't care, they know enough of ontarians are stupid enough to vote for them. I just received the lowest hydro bill ever and I am not going to vote for her even if it means it goes back up.(Which it is going to right after the election)

People that work deserve to earn a LIVING . I own a company and pay employees $25.00 per hour if I can not hire a person and give them a real job then I should shut down. These wealthy people that say all these jobs will be lost are full of it. This country has been losing real jobs for years and replacing them with macjobs low pay and no benefits while the big guys walk away with bigger profits then ever and massive salaries for themselves. You must build a strong foundation of a business in order to build up.

[Argus]

21 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

People that work deserve to earn a LIVING

Nonsense. In a Capitalist system all you deserve is whatever wages your skillset can command in competition with other workers.

Quote

. I own a company and pay employees $25.00 per hour if I can not hire a person and give them a real job then I should shut down.

Really? That would eliminate massive numbers of jobs and leave people in stark poverty, living their lives on welfare. You think this would be a good thing?

Quote

These wealthy people that say all these jobs will be lost are full of it. This country has been losing real jobs for years and replacing them with macjobs low pay and no benefits while the big guys walk away with bigger profits then ever and massive salaries for themselves. You must build a strong foundation of a business in order to build up.

The reason this country has been losing 'real jobs' is because they can be done more cheaply by people abroad who get lower wages. Service jobs are not as prone to being shipped overseas, but they are prone to being replaced by automation, or in the case of some jobs, by people simply deciding they're too expensive. Give every restaurant worker $25hr and that will mean every restaurant will have to make big increases in their prices. That will discourage many people from going to restaurants and thus cause many restaurants to shut down.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Argus

[peoples advocate]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Nonsense. In a Capitalist system all you deserve is whatever wages your skillset can command in competition with other workers.

Really? That would eliminate massive numbers of jobs and leave people in stark poverty, living their lives on welfare. You think this would be a good thing?

The reason this country has been losing 'real jobs' is because they can be done more cheaply by people abroad who get lower wages. Service jobs are not as prone to being shipped overseas, but they are prone to being replaced by automation, or in the case of some jobs, by people simply deciding they're too expensive. Give every restaurant worker $25hr and that will mean every restaurant will have to make big increases in their prices. That will discourage many people from going to restaurants and thus cause many restaurants to shut down.

Maybe just maybe if wages came up every where to a living wage life would be different. What do you make ? More then min. wage ? People of the mind set like you are the reason that things are the way they are and by the way thousands have lost jobs and are in poverty thousands of others are working full time min. wage living pay check to pay check so please. The only people getting rich are the big business share holders on the backs of the poor folks. They get no benefits and no sharing of profits.

 why are you so worried about restaurants ? that seems strange what about the servers ? take the blinders off and offer the poor a chance to live even if it is at the expense of some of the wealthy. The people that then would not go to your sacred restaurants would then have that extra disposable income to spend on something else and then maybe even others could afford to go to your restaurants for a meal I mean the ones that would survive.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

Maybe just maybe if wages came up every where to a living wage life would be different. What do you make ? More then min. wage ? People of the mind set like you are the reason that things are the way they are and by the way thousands have lost jobs and are in poverty thousands of others are working full time min. wage living pay check to pay check so please. The only people getting rich are the big business share holders on the backs of the poor folks. They get no benefits and no sharing of profits.

This is nothing but a blustering rant with no information, facts, evidence or logic. People are poor largely because they have not invested in the necessary education and skillset to command better wages. Shareholders and investors are how businesses grow and thrive and hire more workers, which not only produces taxes to pay the poor but to pay for everything else used by the poor, including health care.

18 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

 why are you so worried about restaurants ? that seems strange what about the servers ? take the blinders off and offer the poor a chance to live even if it is at the expense of some of the wealthy.

This is another patently silly emotional argument without facts or logic. The poor, except those who are sick, have always had a chance to live and thrive. The job of government is to ensure an economic system with many opportunities. Not everyone avails themselves of those opportunities. Oh well. 

18 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

The people that then would not go to your sacred restaurants would then have that extra disposable income to spend on something else and then maybe even others could afford to go to your restaurants for a meal I mean the ones that would survive.

The more a service costs the less people will use that service. This is fundamental, elementary economics. I was once a security guard. When security guards unionized and cost more a lot more automated systems were put in place so companies didn't need to have security guards. If you make restaurants more expensive, more people will eat at home. If you make dry cleaning more expensive, more people will wash their own clothes. If you make the products made on a factory line more expensive, fewer people will buy those products. 

[peoples advocate]

55 minutes ago, Argus said:

This is nothing but a blustering rant with no information, facts, evidence or logic. People are poor largely because they have not invested in the necessary education and skillset to command better wages. Shareholders and investors are how businesses grow and thrive and hire more workers, which not only produces taxes to pay the poor but to pay for everything else used by the poor, including health care.

This is another patently silly emotional argument without facts or logic. The poor, except those who are sick, have always had a chance to live and thrive. The job of government is to ensure an economic system with many opportunities. Not everyone avails themselves of those opportunities. Oh well. 

The more a service costs the less people will use that service. This is fundamental, elementary economics. I was once a security guard. When security guards unionized and cost more a lot more automated systems were put in place so companies didn't need to have security guards. If you make restaurants more expensive, more people will eat at home. If you make dry cleaning more expensive, more people will wash their own clothes. If you make the products made on a factory line more expensive, fewer people will buy those products. 

 As if anything you say can not be debated from a better side . You my friend rant and again from a clouded sense of thinking like big business. You know the points I make are valid and You are just a person that is always right so go ahead and wrongly be right.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

 As if anything you say can not be debated from a better side .

Perhaps, but not, evidently, by you.

Quote

You my friend rant and again from a clouded sense of thinking like big business.

No, you've simply combined separate paragraphs which politely point out the errors of your thinking, and now you evidently have no reply of substance to any of them.

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Argus

[PIK]

On 10/20/2017 at 6:09 PM, peoples advocate said:

 

People that work deserve to earn a LIVING . I own a company and pay employees $25.00 per hour if I can not hire a person and give them a real job then I should shut down. These wealthy people that say all these jobs will be lost are full of it. This country has been losing real jobs for years and replacing them with macjobs low pay and no benefits while the big guys walk away with bigger profits then ever and massive salaries for themselves. You must build a strong foundation of a business in order to build up.

You are either doing real well or are full of shit. I own a company also and paying that would kill me. And paying some snot nose kid 15hr , is a crime. It is not a living wage nor should it be, that is the lazy man's way.

[peoples advocate]

5 hours ago, PIK said:

You are either doing real well or are full of shit. I own a company also and paying that would kill me. And paying some snot nose kid 15hr , is a crime. It is not a living wage nor should it be, that is the lazy man's way.

See the way you think is a little off even if you look at fast food places like MacDonald's now you see more adults because jobs are no longer as abundant . So you have adults trying to raise children on a wage that is below poverty and you are ok with this ? if you are you should be ashamed . Another thing I do Pay that wage and I survive I guess it depends on greedy you are. I think we know what you are like .

 You don't seem to have a serious answer so I have a little advise ... Reading more then comics could broaden your horizons.  Maybe  

[taxme]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:20 AM, hernanday said:

Given that most jobs in Ontario are minimum wage low paying jobs, and the province's business class greediness has caused them to push wages down to nothing for most people, there is a large class of under 40 workers working min wage retail jobs.  $15 min wage will basically guarantee Wynns re-election while knocking the sails out of the NDP far left and putting the conservative in a bind where they will have to argue why poor people don't deserve $2 an hour wage increase while they voted for tens of thousands of dollars in wages for themselves and favoring large payouts for large CEO and business directors.

 

Like it or not, she is clever politician and this basically ensure Wynn will win the masses of voters who are working in $11 an hour retail, restaurant, hotel, etc jobs.  The conservative party is in real trouble provincially.

What the voters of Ontario should be doing is not voting for any of those puppet on a string politically correct politicians. What once was a great WASP province is now nothing more than a multicultural and gay hell hole, and forever will be in debt. Where common sense and logic once ruled Ontario now there is chaos. And that is what Ontario has become today. A hell hole of more government, more taxes, and a province that keeps pushing the ever more multicultural and gay program and agenda as top priority for Ontario. Ontario stinks. 

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

Why is minimum wage not tied to inflation? Does inflation not reflect the cost of living? 

 

[PIK]

On 6/1/2017 at 10:12 PM, dialamah said:

70 years of research demonstrates that raising minimum wage does not result in fewer jobs.  Making the private sector pay people a livable wage reduces reliance on government handouts and actually correlates with an improved economy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-effect-on-jobs-2016-5

 

Actually you are wrong. People have already lost their jobs  and business are closing because of this. Prices are rising so business people can try and keep ahead of it. Please no more left wing talking pts, this is a major disaster.

[OftenWrong]

Wynne plays the "Trump card"? Hardly. A different approach-

Boom: 40 companies give Trump tax reform bonuses, up to $2,000

Some 40 U.S. companies have responded to President Trump’s tax cut and reform victory in Congress last year by handing out bonuses up to $2,000, increases in 401k matches and spending on charity, a much higher number than previously known.

[Bonam]

On 5/31/2017 at 9:51 AM, Argus said:

And how would you compare Washington's economy, or California's, to Ontario?

Well, Washington has Amazon and Microsoft and Boeing. Those three companies, by themselves, exceed the GDP of all of Canada. And they're all headquartered essentially in one metro area (Seattle). So I think Seattle can handle a $15 minimum wage a lot better than Ontario can. That said, some studies have shown that even in Seattle, the higher minimum wage has reduced the number of entry level jobs available. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/new-study-casts-doubt-on-whether-a-15-minimum-wage-really-helps-workers/?utm_term=.8e9835810e66

Details:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23532.pdf

Extract from the conclusion:

Our preferred estimates suggest that the Seattle Minimum Wage Ordinance caused hours worked by low-skilled workers (i.e., those earning under $19 per hour) to fall by 9.4% during the three quarters when the minimum wage was $13 per hour, resulting in a loss of 3.5 million hours worked per calendar quarter. Alternative estimates show the number of low-wage jobs declined by 6.8%, which represents a loss of more than 5,000 jobs. These estimates are robust to cutoffs other than $19.60 A 3.1% increase in wages in jobs that paid less than $19 coupled with a 9.4% loss in hours yields a labor demand elasticity of roughly -3.0, and this large elasticity estimate is robust to other cutoffs.

These results suggest a fundamental rethinking of the nature of low-wage work. Prior elasticity estimates in the range of zero to -0.2 suggest there are few suitable substitutes for lowwage employees, that firms faced with labor cost increases have little option but to raise their wage bill. Seattle data show – even in simple first differences – that payroll expenses on workers earning under $19 per hour either rose minimally or fell as the minimum wage increased from $9.47 to $13 in just over nine months. An elasticity of -3 suggests that low-wage labor is a more substitutable, expendable factor of production. The work of least-paid workers might be performed more efficiently by more skilled and experienced workers commanding a higher wage. This work could, in some circumstances, be automated. In other circumstances, employers may conclude that the work of least-paid workers need not be done at all.

Importantly, the lost income associated with the hours reductions exceeds the gain associated with the net wage increase of 3.1%. Using data in Table 3, we compute that the average low-wage employee was paid $1,897 per month. The reduction in hours would cost the average employee $179 per month, while the wage increase would recoup only $54 of this loss, leaving a net loss of $125 per month (6.6%), which is sizable for a low-wage worker.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Bonam

[Ginsy]

Hm. I was talking to an older family member of mine today who runs their own business and they posed a question that really made me got me thinking. In short, they asked why I, at eighteen years of age with no formal training, in well, anything, actually deserve $14 an hour. I have no skills, have little to no work experience and have not in any concrete way proven that I am worth $14 an hour, much less $11 an hour. And you know, I couldn't really refute their point.As a private business owner, I can understand how this is annoying. To be forced to pay a green, no-experience employee doing work that isn't really intellectually challenging, more than what they "deserve".

I do see Wynne's point about $14 being necessary for allow adults who have children and dire responsibilities to pay for whatever they need to pay for, but I don't think that changes the fact that a good chunk of people working minimum wage do so because they are not qualified to earn more (approx. 54% of those in minimum wage jobs have a high school diploma or less. There's nothing inherently wrong with only having those credentials, btw). 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Ginsy

[PIK]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:27 PM, peoples advocate said:

See the way you think is a little off even if you look at fast food places like MacDonald's now you see more adults because jobs are no longer as abundant . So you have adults trying to raise children on a wage that is below poverty and you are ok with this ? if you are you should be ashamed . Another thing I do Pay that wage and I survive I guess it depends on greedy you are. I think we know what you are like .

 You don't seem to have a serious answer so I have a little advise ... Reading more then comics could broaden your horizons.  Maybe  

I run it, I take the risk, I shoUld pay what I want. If you dont like it, go back to school and get a better job. Or start your own.

[OftenWrong]

From what I've seen with these low paying jobs, they depend on having enough suckers who would work there for whatever they can get, and there are plenty of those around. Full time? Benefits? Vacation pay? Phhht.

Sure, employers have "the right" to pay as little as they can get away with, but it's the rot. It takes us all down with it. I went to school, I now have a secure job and great pay. But I have seen companies advertising their jobs in engineering offering only $20/ hour, or even less. They will find someone from a foreign country who has come here to start a new life, and who is desperate enough to take crap like that. But it sets a new standard- if they can do the work at that low wage, so can everyone else.

[taxme]

On 6/1/2017 at 7:12 PM, dialamah said:

70 years of research demonstrates that raising minimum wage does not result in fewer jobs.  Making the private sector pay people a livable wage reduces reliance on government handouts and actually correlates with an improved economy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-effect-on-jobs-2016-5

 

Paying salaries is also a tax write-off, so what are businesses and corporations all whining and crying about when they have to pay a few extra dollar crumbs to their staff. These businesses and corporations are only interested in one thing, and one thing only. How can we make more money. They have earned billions and still are greedy to make more. If any business that can afford to pay their workers a decent salary it is corporations. It will no doubt hurt the small business  person a bit who are trying to struggle to get by with all the taxes, and rules and regulations and custom tariffs that they have to put up with. 

I might add that all of these greedy corporations would not be in business if it were not for the people working for those greedy corporations. Walmart is a prime example of how that filthy rich greedy corporations think and cares about their employees. I am pretty sure that If the Walmart workers asked for a 50 cent raise every year, Walmart would go into a fit. 

[taxme]

On 1/6/2018 at 4:13 PM, OftenWrong said:

From what I've seen with these low paying jobs, they depend on having enough suckers who would work there for whatever they can get, and there are plenty of those around. Full time? Benefits? Vacation pay? Phhht.

Sure, employers have "the right" to pay as little as they can get away with, but it's the rot. It takes us all down with it. I went to school, I now have a secure job and great pay. But I have seen companies advertising their jobs in engineering offering only $20/ hour, or even less. They will find someone from a foreign country who has come here to start a new life, and who is desperate enough to take crap like that. But it sets a new standard- if they can do the work at that low wage, so can everyone else.

Is that we we have such an high third world immigration rate then? Bring them here by the hundreds of thousands every year so we can pay them less. It would appear as though most businesses and corporations like it when Canada allows more third world immigrants come to Canada. They get to make and be able to put more money in their bank accounts. 

[DogOnPorch]

The irony of raising the minimum wage of course is that the cost of the raise will simply get passed on to those getting the raise. Enjoy that $5.00 loaf of bread...etc.

[taxme]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

The irony of raising the minimum wage of course is that the cost of the raise will simply get passed on to those getting the raise. Enjoy that $5.00 loaf of bread...etc.

So why all the whining and crying from businesses then? It's all a write-off anyway, and as you said, the raise is passed on to you and me the consumer. What's the problem here anyway? I guess the only one that really wins here is the government. Raise the wages, and receive more taxes. They give you a break in one way, but then take it back another way. 

Government is always the problem, never the solution.