The Responsibilities of Citizenship

[Hydraboss]

On 4/25/2017 at 10:53 AM, dialamah said:

A 'barbaric practices' tip line singles out a specific population.   A tip line only validates the false belief that only a certain type of person does these things.  And since we already have laws and procedures in place to deal with these practices, a tip line for them is redundant.

Exactly how we already have laws in place for dealing with "hate crimes" against anyone, not just Muslims.

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

Please note my consistency:  we don't need more laws to deal with illegal cultural practices OR anti-Muslim hate crimes.

And yet you support M103?  Will you still support it when the motion turns into a recommendation for an "anti-islamaphobia" law?

[dialamah]

34 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

Exactly how we already have laws in place for dealing with "hate crimes" against anyone, not just Muslims.

And yet you support M103?  Will you still support it when the motion turns into a recommendation for an "anti-islamaphobia" law?

I support the study's stated purpose, which is to examine the issue of religious discrimination and persecution in Canada.  Supporting the government seeking additional information and also not supporting unnecessary laws are not mutually exclusive. 

If a law were proposed as a result of this study, I would have to know exactly what the law said and reasons behind it before I could decide whether or not to support it.  Generally speaking, I probably would figure it was overkill.

I don't subscribe to the paranoia of "OMG, M103 is Sharia law in the making" and I don't consider myself prescient enough to conclude that "there will be a law". 

 

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

This is the sort of all-purpose nonsense we see from politicians when they talk about street gangs and violence. They'll say something like "Street gang members come in all nationalities." And they're right. Why, there's probably at least one white guy for every ninety nine black, asian and arab guys. But of course, the reason they use such language is an attempt to pretend that the problem is not related to specific ethnic groups - even though it is. 

With FGM, the OVERWHELMING majority of those who practice this barbaric act are indeed Muslims.

Yes, because this practice occurs in a region mostly people by Muslims; nonetheless, the same percentage of Christians and "other" religions practice FGM in those areas.  If 8 out of 10 women in any given region suffer FGM, those women are Muslim/Christian/Other. This makes FGM a cultural practice and not a religious one.  If a tip line had been implemented, people who believe as you and a few others here would only be looking at Muslims, and missing all the non-Muslim women who may also be suffering.    So how about you, who claims to care so much about women, starts spreading some truth instead of BS?

[Goddess]

58 minutes ago, dialamah said:

nonetheless, the same percentage of Christians and "other" religions practice FGM in those areas.  If 8 out of 10 women in any given region suffer FGM, those women are Muslim/Christian/Other. This makes FGM a cultural practice and not a religious one. 

 

I think the debate is still on-going on that, so NOT settled as you put forward.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/guest-post-the-relationship-between-islam-and-female-genital-mutilation/

 

Quote

 

Readers of this blog will be familiar with the debate between Bill Maher and Reza Aslan about Islam and female genital mutilation (FGM). Maher has argued that FGM is an Islamic problem, pointing out that: “91 percent of Egyptian women have had their clitorises forcibly removed. 98 percent of Somalian women have.” Aslan countered that it is “empirically, factually, incorrect” to say that FGM is an Islamic problem, rather it is an African problem: “Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.”

Who’s right? You can’t tell on the basis of these cherry-picked examples, as you have to look at all of the data. This is not my area… but the data is not difficult to find. We have WHO data on FGM, and Pew data on the prevalence of Islam (and from Wikipedia, Christianity), in 28 African countries (and Yemen as well).

These data [JAC: presented as a plot below] clearly show that there is a large significant positive correlation between the percentage of women subject to FGM, and the prevalence of Islam. Both variables are non-normal, so technically we should report a Spearman’s correlation: rs=0.54, p=.003. The correlation between FGM and Christianity is negative (rs=-0.48, p=.01).

So Aslan is wrong. There is a “factual, empirical” relationship between Islam and FGM. Maher’s examples illustrate this relationship, whereas Aslan’s examples are conspicuous outliers.

Aslan is also wrong to say that “Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue”. It would be more accurate to say that we just don’t know whether the relationship between Islam and FGM holds elsewhere because (as far as I can tell) there is no reliable data on FGM outside of Africa. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course, correlation does not prove causation. Why there is this relationship between Islam and FGM is a separate question. And certainly the outliers—Senegal, Yemen and especially Niger—suggest that there is no necessary connection between Islam and FGM. So what other factors may be at work? Poverty? Healthcare? Education? Here are some UN development data for the same 28 countries: Gross National Income / capita, life expectancy, years of schooling, and a composite Human Development Index (HDI). Of these, Islam remains the single best predictor. And surprisingly, there is no relationship between FGM and income, life expectancy or development. But there is a negative relationship between education and FGM (-.44) (And schooling is strongly negatively correlated with Islam [-.55]). So who knows, perhaps education is key.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Goddess

[dialamah]

As any researcher will tell you, correlation is not causation.

A while ago I found a website which broke down the incidence of FGM among Muslims, Christians (broken down between protestant and catholic) and "other" (usually animist) in Middle Eastern and African countries.  I posted the link, as well as some of the information in a post.   The information clearly demonstrated that FGM is not limited to Muslims, but covers all religions.  Even where there was a difference, it was rarely more than 10% and in one country Muslims were not the ones with the highest incidence.

But hey, it's an Islamic problem.  We'll just go with that, because it's much more important to blame Islam than to recognize that this affects all women in that region.

 

 

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

 

As any researcher will tell you, correlation is not causation.

 

Did you even read the article?  Because it says that right in the article.  I even quoted that part.

[dialamah]

Just now, Goddess said:

Did you even read the article?  Because it says that right in the article.  I even quoted that part.

Not really, Goddess.  Why bother?  You, Argus, DoP and a few others are absolutely determined to lay every single nasty thing you can come up with at Islam's feet and by extension make guilty every Muslim in the world.   You guys are no better than Hot Enough who blames the US for absolutely everything he possibly can, regardless of the facts. 

I'm tired of it, I'm tired of the willfull ignorance, the hateful comments on this board.   I can find way better and honest discussion about the ways in which Islam needs to change it's outdated moral code, and address the actions of extremists who use Islam as a cover - with both Muslims and non-Muslims in other venues.  I can also find information on people who are doing those positive things, instead of constantly having to address the same stupid Islamophobic crap here.

 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not really, Goddess.

So, not willing to read it.  Gotcha.

And the response is more accusations of Islamophobia.  Gotcha.

[Goddess]

17 hours ago, taxme said:

No, but go ahead and tell me. Probably something to do with insulting patriots. 

Haha, I looked it up.  Basically, it's when you're stupid but you don't know you're stupid.

[dialamah]

56 minutes ago, Goddess said:

So, not willing to read it.  Gotcha.

And the response is more accusations of Islamophobia.  Gotcha.

When someone cannot talk about anything except the way in which Muslims or Islam is evil, immoral, violent, ignorant, uncivilized, that is Islamophobia.   When the simple fact FGM is practiced by people other than Muslims is mentioned, someone is inspired to find an article disputing it, that's Islamaphobia.  When every single thing anyone posts on here says anything positive about Muslisms or Islam is shouted down as being apologist, refusing to face reality, part of "liberal" insanity and the ruining of Canada, that's Islamophobia.   When efforts to discuss or address the issue of *extremism* or partriarchal attitudes and attendant abuses how it can be identified, addressed or mitigated ignored in preference to claims that Muslims are too ignorant and backward to learn or change, that's Islamaphobia.   

I've tried multiple times to actually address the issues that the anti-Islam group here claims they are so concerned about - violent extremism, patriarchal attitudes, Sharia law - but instead of discussion I get abuse heaped on me for not subscribing to the view that all Muslims are ignorant, backward, violent extremists.  I'm called a liar and my patriotism to Canada is called into question.  And yet if the word "Islamaphobia" is mentioned, people cry about how unfair it is, like a bunch of pathetic snowflakes. 

So yeah, that's the label you get because you've earned it.

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

When the simple fact FGM is practiced by people other than Muslims is mentioned,

The article also acknowledges that, as do I.  But I read the article.

 

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

instead of discussion I get abuse heaped on me for not subscribing to the view that all Muslims are ignorant, backward, violent extremists. 

The only one I see here saying that all the time....is you.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

The only one I see here saying that all the time....is you.

Then you haven't really been paying attention to Argus, DoP, Hal9000 along with a couple of others, although you certainly haven't hesitated to agree with them. 

Rue, Bonam, Boges, BCSapper - a few of the ones who disagree with much of what I say but do not regularly denigrate all Muslims using the worst possible terms, nor have they called me a liar or stupid, told me what I believe, accused me (or all Liberals) of working to destroy Canada because we fail to hate Islam or Muslims.   

Every time someone on here calls Muslims dirty, ignorant, backward, violent, unable to change they are talking about my sister and my brother-in-law, who are none of those things. And, despite having grown up Muslim in a 'backward' country, has somehow managed to obtain a doctorate in one field and a masters in another, who has published in his field, has worked throughout the world, and is well-respected by those who know him.   Just like millions of other Muslims which Islamophobes pretend don't exist, or claim don't matter because 'there aren't enough of them'.  As if they'd know. 

[taxme]

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

Haha, I looked it up.  Basically, it's when you're stupid but you don't know you're stupid.

Ya, I find many Canadians fit that description, especially liberals. 

[Bob Macadoo]

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

The article also acknowledges that, as do I.  But I read the article.

 

The only one I see here saying that all the time....is you.

That was an ignorant statement.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bob Macadoo said:

That was an ignorant statement.

And not entirely accurate. There are one or two other posters who do that too, always in response to the pointing out of awful behaviour by those Muslims who do indulge in it.  

It does appear that the only people who are aware that not all Muslims are awful, are those who are aware that some of them are. 

[blackbird]

On 2017-04-25 at 10:49 AM, dialamah said:

Rightists want to put their heads in the sand and pretend that its ok to spread misinformation about people and then enact laws based on that misinformation.  Case in point:  FGM is believed to be only an Islamic practice, by those who uncritically believe everything right-wing media sources say. 

Various sources do confirm FGM is practiced mainly by Muslims in a geographic area in countries across north Africa.

Wikipedia says in part:

Quote

Background[edit]

FGM is found mostly within and adjacent to Muslim communities in Central-North Africa, but it is not required by Islam or practiced in most Muslim countries, and prevalence rates vary according to ethnicity, not religion.^[15] However, Muslim views are claimed^[16][17][18] to have permitted, justified, even encouraged FGM, over human history.

There is no reference to FGM in the Qur'an.^[19] In other Islamic texts the practice is referred to as khafḍ (Arabic: خفض‎‎)^[20] or khifaḍ (Arabic: خِفَض‎‎).^[21]Khitan (Arabic: خِتان‎‎) usually refers to male circumcision, but in some regions or dialects also encompasses FGM. The less severe forms of FGM, particularly what the World Health Organization calls Type I (removal of the clitoral hood with either part of or the entire clitoris), is known as Sunna circumcision.^[22]

There is no consensus whether the hadiths support or forbid FGM.^[23][24] Different schools of Islamic jurisprudence have expressed different views on FGM.^[16][25][26]

In addition to Sharia, the Ijtihad (sometimes spelled igtihad) have been one of the four sources of Muslim law through the centuries. Ijtihad include fatwas (opinions of Muslim religious scholars), which are often widely distributed, orally or in writing, in simple language, to the masses, and describe behavior that conforms with religious requirements. Fatwas are considered by most believers to be morally obligatory.^[23][27]

Fatwas in favor of FGM have been issued in many Islamic countries,^[28][29][30] some fatwas forbid FGM,^[31] and some ambivalent fatwas have also been issued that leave the choice to the parents.^[32]

Sunni view[edit]

There are dichotomous differences of opinion among Sunni scholars in regards to female genital cutting.^[33] These differences of opinion range from obligatory to acceptable. The Shafi'i and Hanbali schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be obligatory for both males and females, while the Hanafi and Maliki schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be Sunnah (preferred) for both males and females.^[34]

Historical religious views

The historical religious view regarding the partial cutting of the clitoris, also known as Type One FGM, varies with the school of Islamic jurisprudence fiqh:^[35]

• The Shafi'i school considers female circumcision to be wajib (obligatory).^[36]
• The Hanbali school considers female circumcision to be makrumah (honorable) and strongly encouraged, to obligatory.^[37]
• The Maliki school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (optional) and preferred.^[37]
• The Hanafi school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (preferred).^[37]  

There is some information about FGM being practices in some other religions but this is an extremely small percentage of the total 200 million women.

From Wikipedia,  in part:

Quote

Christianity[edit]

The Christian Bible (New Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation).^[89][90]

Christian authorities unanimously agree that FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) has no foundation in the religious texts of Christianity.^[91]

Some Christian women, in Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania, undergo a procedure of genital cutting; they wrongly believe it to be a religious requirement.^[91]

In Africa, missionaries have tried to discourage FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation). However, in some instances, in order to retain converts from other religions, they have either ignored or condoned the continuation of these practices. When in the 1930s European Christians tried to make opposition to FGM a condition of church membership and a test of loyalty, they provoked a far-reaching campaign in colonial Kenya. Mary Nyangweso, a Kenyan researcher who studies "the interplay of religion, culture, and gender",^[92] states, "Christianity, it is important to stress, does not advocate the total eradication of the Nandi female initiation rite. Rather it advocates the need to eradicate the practice of female circumcision that involves clitoridectomy and excision because it is physically unhealthy and does not conform to Christian teaching. The initiation rite can continue to be practised and the actual circumcision can be replaced by some other symbolic acts not harmful to women's bodies. This can be derived from the culture itself or Scripture that now forms part of the Nandi way of life."^[93]

Judaism[edit]

The Jewish Bible (Old Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation).^[89][90]

Female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood) and female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) is forbidden in Judaism.^[94]

Regardless of these views, in Ethiopia, there resides a Jewish minority group, often referred to as Falasha or Beta Israel, who practice the procedure of female genital cutting.^[91] However, there is still a question to the validity of the Beta Israel's claim. "Non science scholars today excessively rely on the existing religious texts of the Beta Israel to analyze their Jewish heritage and distinctive traits that are not shared with the Abyssinian Christian society. Researches, however, suggest that the sum of authentic Jewish material within the religious texts of the group is small (Devens, 1995, p. ix). Rather, the texts are shown to contain significant borrowings from Christian sources. These conclusions are widely accepted by scholars as supporting evidence to the argument of the traditional theory that the Beta Israel people were originally non-Jewish (Quirin, 2010, p. 5-6)." jewry/^[95]

Other religions[edit]

Animism

Some animist groups in Africa practice female genital mutilation.^[96] Their religious views on the subject are undocumented.

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism

Hinduism and Buddhism outright reject the procedure of female genital cutting.^[97] It is completely absent from their traditions just as FGM is completely nonexistent in Confucianist traditions.^[98]

Unquote

 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by blackbird

[kactus]

12 hours ago, blackbird said:

Various sources do confirm FGM is practiced mainly by Muslims in a geographic area in countries across north Africa.

Wikipedia says in part:

Quote

Background[edit]

FGM is found mostly within and adjacent to Muslim communities in Central-North Africa, but it is not required by Islam or practiced in most Muslim countries, and prevalence rates vary according to ethnicity, not religion.^[15] However, Muslim views are claimed^[16][17][18] to have permitted, justified, even encouraged FGM, over human history.

There is no reference to FGM in the Qur'an.^[19] In other Islamic texts the practice is referred to as khafḍ (Arabic: خفض‎‎)^[20] or khifaḍ (Arabic: خِفَض‎‎).^[21]Khitan (Arabic: خِتان‎‎) usually refers to male circumcision, but in some regions or dialects also encompasses FGM. The less severe forms of FGM, particularly what the World Health Organization calls Type I (removal of the clitoral hood with either part of or the entire clitoris), is known as Sunna circumcision.^[22]

There is no consensus whether the hadiths support or forbid FGM.^[23][24] Different schools of Islamic jurisprudence have expressed different views on FGM.^[16][25][26]

In addition to Sharia, the Ijtihad (sometimes spelled igtihad) have been one of the four sources of Muslim law through the centuries. Ijtihad include fatwas (opinions of Muslim religious scholars), which are often widely distributed, orally or in writing, in simple language, to the masses, and describe behavior that conforms with religious requirements. Fatwas are considered by most believers to be morally obligatory.^[23][27]

Fatwas in favor of FGM have been issued in many Islamic countries,^[28][29][30] some fatwas forbid FGM,^[31] and some ambivalent fatwas have also been issued that leave the choice to the parents.^[32]

Sunni view[edit]

There are dichotomous differences of opinion among Sunni scholars in regards to female genital cutting.^[33] These differences of opinion range from obligatory to acceptable. The Shafi'i and Hanbali schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be obligatory for both males and females, while the Hanafi and Maliki schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be Sunnah (preferred) for both males and females.^[34]

Historical religious views

The historical religious view regarding the partial cutting of the clitoris, also known as Type One FGM, varies with the school of Islamic jurisprudence fiqh:^[35]

• The Shafi'i school considers female circumcision to be wajib (obligatory).^[36]
• The Hanbali school considers female circumcision to be makrumah (honorable) and strongly encouraged, to obligatory.^[37]
• The Maliki school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (optional) and preferred.^[37]
• The Hanafi school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (preferred).^[37]  

There is some information about FGM being practices in some other religions but this is an extremely small percentage of the total 200 million women.

From Wikipedia,  in part:

Quote

Christianity[edit]

The Christian Bible (New Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation).^[89][90]

Christian authorities unanimously agree that FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) has no foundation in the religious texts of Christianity.^[91]

Some Christian women, in Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania, undergo a procedure of genital cutting; they wrongly believe it to be a religious requirement.^[91]

In Africa, missionaries have tried to discourage FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation). However, in some instances, in order to retain converts from other religions, they have either ignored or condoned the continuation of these practices. When in the 1930s European Christians tried to make opposition to FGM a condition of church membership and a test of loyalty, they provoked a far-reaching campaign in colonial Kenya. Mary Nyangweso, a Kenyan researcher who studies "the interplay of religion, culture, and gender",^[92] states, "Christianity, it is important to stress, does not advocate the total eradication of the Nandi female initiation rite. Rather it advocates the need to eradicate the practice of female circumcision that involves clitoridectomy and excision because it is physically unhealthy and does not conform to Christian teaching. The initiation rite can continue to be practised and the actual circumcision can be replaced by some other symbolic acts not harmful to women's bodies. This can be derived from the culture itself or Scripture that now forms part of the Nandi way of life."^[93]

Judaism[edit]

The Jewish Bible (Old Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation).^[89][90]

Female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood) and female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) is forbidden in Judaism.^[94]

Regardless of these views, in Ethiopia, there resides a Jewish minority group, often referred to as Falasha or Beta Israel, who practice the procedure of female genital cutting.^[91] However, there is still a question to the validity of the Beta Israel's claim. "Non science scholars today excessively rely on the existing religious texts of the Beta Israel to analyze their Jewish heritage and distinctive traits that are not shared with the Abyssinian Christian society. Researches, however, suggest that the sum of authentic Jewish material within the religious texts of the group is small (Devens, 1995, p. ix). Rather, the texts are shown to contain significant borrowings from Christian sources. These conclusions are widely accepted by scholars as supporting evidence to the argument of the traditional theory that the Beta Israel people were originally non-Jewish (Quirin, 2010, p. 5-6)." jewry/^[95]

Other religions[edit]

Animism

Some animist groups in Africa practice female genital mutilation.^[96] Their religious views on the subject are undocumented.

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism

Hinduism and Buddhism outright reject the procedure of female genital cutting.^[97] It is completely absent from their traditions just as FGM is completely nonexistent in Confucianist traditions.^[98]

Unquote

 

 

It is worth noting that this genital circumcision is not widely practised in Shia version as I could't find any reference.

However, male circumcision in widely practised in judaism and islam....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision

Male circumcision practised as a religious rite is found in texts of the Hebrew Bible, as part of the Abrahamic covenant, such as in Genesis 17, and is therefore practised by Jews, Muslims, and some Christians, who constitute the Abrahamic religions. Some rabbinical sources indicate that even before the covenant of Abraham, the aposthia of Shem may have been an inspiration for circumcision; though the aposthia of Shem is not specifically mentioned in the Genesis text.^[9][10]

 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by kactus
Correction

[DogOnPorch]

15 hours ago, dialamah said:

Then you haven't really been paying attention to Argus, DoP, Hal9000 along with a couple of others, although you certainly haven't hesitated to agree with them. 

Rue, Bonam, Boges, BCSapper - a few of the ones who disagree with much of what I say but do not regularly denigrate all Muslims using the worst possible terms, nor have they called me a liar or stupid, told me what I believe, accused me (or all Liberals) of working to destroy Canada because we fail to hate Islam or Muslims.   

Every time someone on here calls Muslims dirty, ignorant, backward, violent, unable to change they are talking about my sister and my brother-in-law, who are none of those things. And, despite having grown up Muslim in a 'backward' country, has somehow managed to obtain a doctorate in one field and a masters in another, who has published in his field, has worked throughout the world, and is well-respected by those who know him.   Just like millions of other Muslims which Islamophobes pretend don't exist, or claim don't matter because 'there aren't enough of them'.  As if they'd know. 

 

Known as "special pleading"...a type of logical fallacy. Sort of like "Won't somebody think of the children??" of Simpsons fame....only your brother in law and sister.

Sorry: I'm not going to accept the cult of Islam to make you feel better.

[DogOnPorch]

Meanwhile near Detroit: two Muslim doctors (husband and wife) arrested for performing FGM.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2017/04/21/second-doctor-arrested-genital-mutilation/100741450/

Pakistani...Dawoodi Bohra Shia Muslims.

Must only serve North Africans in Michigan...eh?

[Goddess]

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Meanwhile near Detroit: two Muslim doctors (husband and wife) arrested for performing FGM.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2017/04/21/second-doctor-arrested-genital-mutilation/100741450/

Pakistani...Dawoodi Bohra Shia Muslims.

Must only serve North Africans in Michigan...eh?

Someone snitched.

[Army Guy]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:06 PM, dialamah said:

Every time someone on here calls Muslims dirty, ignorant, backward, violent, unable to change they are talking about my sister and my brother-in-law, who are none of those things. And, despite having grown up Muslim in a 'backward' country, has somehow managed to obtain a doctorate in one field and a masters in another, who has published in his field, has worked throughout the world, and is well-respected by those who know him.   Just like millions of other Muslims which Islamophobes pretend don't exist, or claim don't matter because 'there aren't enough of them'.  As if they'd know. 

Not sure why you went through all the problem of pointing out your brother in laws education levels, if only to prove to the rest of the world that he is not ignorant or backward. there are a lot of very educated people from across the middle eastern portion of the world, what confuses people in the west is this.....How can a educated person say of your brother in laws calibur follow and maintain his faith in Islam. A religion that has not changed in centuries,nor has it's followers, because it is forbidden to do so. If it can not be changed or updated the way it is set up is there is no room for growth nor can it be modernized.   Then it will remain a vague religion whose interpretation can vary from peaceful to extremists... depending on the reader.....and when viewed by the west , being a media driven society , we see more of the extremist side....and so does other muslims, which garners more support for the extremists....My question is with all this education why are muslims not actively doing something  to promote peaceful Islam practices  to correct this entire issue...to both sides of the fences, extremists and to the west.....

 

 

[Argus]

In fact, education is no bar to religious stupidity and fanaticism. I don't understand why progressives fully accept that fact, especially with the US next door demonstrating it daily, and yet shrink from admitting it about Muslims. I can produce a list of moronic American Republicans who believe in ridiculous things despite being doctors or lawyers and progressives will applaud. Yet they think that somehow an educated Muslim won't believe the nasty, vindictive things written in the Koran about infidels and women and gays.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

On 4/26/2017 at 3:44 PM, Goddess said:

So, not willing to read it.  Gotcha.

And the response is more accusations of Islamophobia.  Gotcha.

Islamophiles dedicate their life to the protection of Islam. It's a moral imperative to them. They will refuse to see any wrongs, no matter the evidence.

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

In fact, education is no bar to religious stupidity and fanaticism. I don't understand why progressives fully accept that fact, especially with the US next door demonstrating it daily, and yet shrink from admitting it about Muslims.

 

Or Catholics in Saskatchewan...next door.

[GritBusters]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:42 PM, taxme said:

Become Canadian, and assimilate right away, and stop bringing with them their culture and everything associated with that culture period. And of course the governments should not be catering to any other culture and blowing taxpayer's tax dollars on helping them to keep their culture alive but rather stick with and enforce on them Canadian culture. Hey, if they don't like it well take the next plane out. Canadians don't need or want you here. 

Of course today the governments and the media try to force Canadians to accept other cultures as part of their life now, and told to shut their mouths and swallow everything the government thinks is good for them. like diversity is our strength. When new immigrants are told that Canada is a multicultural country at swearing in ceremonies, well what can we expect from those new Canadians except gee, I have just been told that I can keep my culture, and not worry about assimilating. Canada? What a great country for new immigrants to come too, eh?  

That's kind of ridiculous when one considers that, in 1867, we had, among other peoples, Chinese railway workers, Aboriginal communities, and Black War of 1812 veterans among our compatriots. That's not including the fact that this country was founded as a compromise between High Church Tories in Ontario and Francophone Ultramontanes in Quebec, rather than as a monolithic bloc. 

There is a lot that I will criticize Pierre Trudeau for, and Justin is easily the worst Prime Minister I've lived through, but multiculturalism only recognizes the lived reality of our Confederation since before it has even become Confederation.

The real threat comes from succeeding Liberal and Conservative governments that have been complicit in the spread of terrorism and far-right Islamic extremism throughout the world through their incestuous relationship with Saudi Arabia and the Al-Saud Crime Family.