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The Responsibilities of Citizenship


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23 minutes ago, taxme said:

Not really? 

Well then think about it a little. Any nut bar can get their hands on a gun under the current (lack of) regulations. That makes you a number of times more likely to be killed by a criminal with a gun in the US. 

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15 hours ago, Omni said:

Well then think about it a little. Any nut bar can get their hands on a gun under the current (lack of) regulations. That makes you a number of times more likely to be killed by a criminal with a gun in the US. 

Gun laws are useless because the bad guy/s will always be able to get their hands on a gun. We have a criminal code that says murdering someone will result in getting one arrested and charged for murder whether it be with a gun or a knife. Gun laws are a waste of taxpayer's tax dollars and time, and wastes politicians time on something that does not need wasting time on. Canadian politicians already waste billions of tax dollars on useless and stupid programs and agendas. And the sad part about it all is that we keep allowing them to do so. And then the taxpayer wonders as to why they are paying so much taxes. Aw well. :rolleyes: 

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1 minute ago, taxme said:

Gun laws are useless because the bad guy/s will always be able to get their hands on a gun

This is the old saw that gun supporters always try and flog even though it has been shown over and over again to be entirely false. Country's with strict gun laws such as the UK, Australia, Japan, and oh yeah, Canada, have extremely lower rates of gun deaths than our neighbors to the south who can't seem to shed the influences of the NRA knuckle draggers. What is wrong with a little background check before you hand some kid an AR-15? 

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11 minutes ago, Omni said:

This is the old saw that gun supporters always try and flog even though it has been shown over and over again to be entirely false. Country's with strict gun laws such as the UK, Australia, Japan, and oh yeah, Canada, have extremely lower rates of gun deaths than our neighbors to the south who can't seem to shed the influences of the NRA knuckle draggers. What is wrong with a little background check before you hand some kid an AR-15? 

Having gun laws does not stop anyone from killing someone with a gun whether it be registered or not. You like to probably think that all bad guys register their guns, eh? You like to believe that having gun laws will stop the bad guys/gals from murdering someone else with a gun, eh? Typical liberal thinking alright. People are still being murdered by guns even though some countries have strict gun laws like even here in Canada. Compare Canada's population to America's population should explain to you as to why there are more murders in America than in Canada. The knuckle heads are the ones that think that gun laws will stop people from killing other people. I doubt very much that anyone in their right mind would want to hand an AK-15 to a kid? But having gun laws won't stop that. Common sense and logic has told me that gun laws are totally useless. Only silly emotional and foolish people who like seeing their tax dollars being blown on stupid gun laws and a stupid waste of time wasted on a bureaucracy to enforce gun laws that cannot seem to stop people killing people with a gun. We have laws against people killing other people. Have those laws stopped people from killing other people?  Liberals? An exercise in futility.  

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7 minutes ago, taxme said:

Having gun laws does not stop anyone from killing someone with a gun whether it be registered or not. You like to probably think that all bad guys register their guns, eh? You like to believe that having gun laws will stop the bad guys/gals from murdering someone else with a gun, eh? Typical liberal thinking alright. People are still being murdered by guns even though some countries have strict gun laws like even here in Canada. Compare Canada's population to America's population should explain to you as to why there are more murders in America than in Canada. The knuckle heads are the ones that think that gun laws will stop people from killing other people. I doubt very much that anyone in their right mind would want to hand an AK-15 to a kid? But having gun laws won't stop that. Common sense and logic has told me that gun laws are totally useless. Only silly emotional and foolish people who like seeing their tax dollars being blown on stupid gun laws and a stupid waste of time wasted on a bureaucracy to enforce gun laws that cannot seem to stop people killing people with a gun. We have laws against people killing other people. Have those laws stopped people from killing other people?  Liberals? An exercise in futility.  

Wow, you really like the pablum the likes of LaPierre is feeding you I see. Common sense and logic, and actual facts tell me that gun laws do work. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1

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1 minute ago, Omni said:

Wow, you really like the pablum the likes of LaPierre is feeding you I see. Common sense and logic, and actual facts tell me that gun laws do work. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1

I will try and make it short, sweet, and simple again for you here to understand. Does having gun laws in Canada or any other country stopped people from killing other people with a gun? NO. Therefore, short,sweet, and simple again gun laws do not work. All countries around the world still have people killing other people with guns that have gun laws. Gawd, I cannot figure out as to why you cannot figure that one out. Criminals will get their hands on guns no matter how strict a countries gun laws are. We see people being killed every day in the world by guns. It's that simple.

Liberals? An exercise in futility. 

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1 minute ago, taxme said:

I will try and make it short, sweet, and simple again for you here to understand.

and that's how I seem to need to reply to you. Gun laws do work, the statistics bare that out. I can't make it any simpler for you.

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1 minute ago, Omni said:

and that's how I seem to need to reply to you. Gun laws do work, the statistics bare that out. I can't make it any simpler for you.

Gun owners are forced to register their guns, and are being forced to abide by a useless and stupid law. Gun laws have saved no lives, a fact that you refuse to acknowledge.

Is that short, sweet and simple enough for you? Probably not. But what else is new. 

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1 minute ago, taxme said:

Gun owners are forced to register their guns, and are being forced to abide by a useless and stupid law. Gun laws have saved no lives, a fact that you refuse to acknowledge.

Is that short, sweet and simple enough for you? Probably not. But what else is new. 

I guess reading/understanding the actual statistics provided is beyond your wishes to maintain your faulty notions.

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4 minutes ago, Omni said:

I guess reading/understanding the actual statistics provided is beyond your wishes to maintain your faulty notions.

Do you have a reading/understanding problem yourself? Statistics are not always right. It all depends on who is putting out those statistics. Most times statistics are just put out to appease others. They are not always true stats. But hey, believe what you want to believe, and so will I.  

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2 minutes ago, taxme said:

Do you have a reading/understanding problem yourself? Statistics are not always right. It all depends on who is putting out those statistics. Most times statistics are just put out to appease others. They are not always true stats. But hey, believe what you want to believe, and so will I.  

Police forces are the people who deal with gun murders and therefore have the statistics. Especially in the countries mentioned. Do you suppose they just bury the numbers of people murdered in an effort to support gun laws. I thought you said you were into common sense?

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1 hour ago, Omni said:

Police forces are the people who deal with gun murders and therefore have the statistics. Especially in the countries mentioned. Do you suppose they just bury the numbers of people murdered in an effort to support gun laws. I thought you said you were into common sense?

Hate crimes records are suppose to be kept by the police also but after an investigation into many of them most were found out to be false. Many murders are not reported by the police when it is convenient to do so for political reasons. But stop trying to derail the topic. Gun laws don't work period. Live with it. 

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20 minutes ago, taxme said:

Hate crimes records are suppose to be kept by the police also but after an investigation into many of them most were found out to be false. Many murders are not reported by the police when it is convenient to do so for political reasons. But stop trying to derail the topic. Gun laws don't work period. Live with it. 

Hate crime records certainly are kept by police. Perhaps you simply have a different definition of what a hate crime is ( I wouldn't be at all surprised based on some of the things you've said so far) so to you they are fake. And do you actually think police don't report murders for political reasons? And yes, gun laws do work, as the information given you proves. 

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22 hours ago, Omni said:

Hate crime records certainly are kept by police. Perhaps you simply have a different definition of what a hate crime is ( I wouldn't be at all surprised based on some of the things you've said so far) so to you they are fake. And do you actually think police don't report murders for political reasons? And yes, gun laws do work, as the information given you proves. 

What may appear to be a hate crime too you may not appear to be a hate crime too me. 

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2 minutes ago, Omni said:

Doesn't matter what you or I think, it's codified in Canadian law.

Not all Canadian laws are good laws. Some laws were created to shut people down from voicing their opinions and points of view. 

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30 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

Exactly!

The definition of hate crimes in Canada is every bit as clear as the definition of "Islamophobia".

I don't think hate crimes are ill-defined, perhaps you meant hate speech?   

I think the laws against hate speech and hate crimes would apply whether such are directed against Muslims, Jews, gays etc.  

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(4) In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.

Actually, "hate crimes" are based on one thing and one thing only - the definition above.  So let me ask you this....I'm a mid forties Canadian Caucasian straight male of German descent with no religious affiliation.

Can you describe any situation where I could be an "identifiable group"?  Or are "hate crimes" only for people not-like-me?

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1 hour ago, Hydraboss said:

Actually, "hate crimes" are based on one thing and one thing only - the definition above.  So let me ask you this....I'm a mid forties Canadian Caucasian straight male of German descent with no religious affiliation.

Can you describe any situation where I could be an "identifiable group"?  Or are "hate crimes" only for people not-like-me?

If a bunch of women kidnapped you, beat you, cut off your privates and branded the word "rapist" on your a$$, because you are a heterosexual male.

If a bunch of Jews painted "Nazi" on your house, burned an effigy of Hitler on your lawn and threatened death to you because of your German heritage.

Of course those would also be crimes subject to prosecution; the hate aspect would also have to be proven.  I believe that is the procedure for any prosecution of a hate crime: the prosecutor has to prove the crime also included hatred of the group you belong to (German, heterosexual male) as a motivating factor.

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21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If a bunch of women kidnapped you, beat you, cut off your privates and branded the word "rapist" on your a$$, because you are a heterosexual male.

If a bunch of Jews painted "Nazi" on your house, burned an effigy of Hitler on your lawn and threatened death to you because of your German heritage.

Of course those would also be crimes subject to prosecution; the hate aspect would also have to be proven.  I believe that is the procedure for any prosecution of a hate crime: the prosecutor has to prove the crime also included hatred of the group you belong to (German, heterosexual male) as a motivating factor.

If a bunch of people kidnapped him, beat him, cut off his privates and branded the words "Leafs Rule" on his a$$, should their punishment be any less severe that the perps in your example?

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37 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If a bunch of people kidnapped him, beat him, cut off his privates and branded the words "Leafs Rule" on his a$$, should their punishment be any less severe that the perps in your example?

Not the point of my example.  A designation of "hate" applied to a crime can enhance penalties, if certain legislated criteria are met (ethnicity and sexual orientation in my example).  

Whether that should or shouldn't be the case is a different discussion.  

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22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not the point of my example.  A designation of "hate" applied to a crime can enhance penalties, if certain legislated criteria are met (ethnicity and sexual orientation in my example).  

Whether that should or shouldn't be the case is a different discussion.  

Understood about the point.  I was just curious as to your view.  I certainly would like to think it would not make a difference.  I deserve equal protection under the law.

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On 5/10/2017 at 2:56 PM, Omni said:

This is the old saw that gun supporters always try and flog even though it has been shown over and over again to be entirely false. Country's with strict gun laws such as the UK, Australia, Japan, and oh yeah, Canada, have extremely lower rates of gun deaths than our neighbors to the south who can't seem to shed the influences of the NRA knuckle draggers. What is wrong with a little background check before you hand some kid an AR-15? 

...

Edited by PIK
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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Understood about the point.  I was just curious as to your view.  I certainly would like to think it would not make a difference.  I deserve equal protection under the law.

My view is that inasmuch as the justice system is about punishment, additional punishment for crimes with the designation of "hate" doesn't do squat for deterrence and does nothing to protect targeted groups any better than just regular punishment would.

But having and using such legislation does allow us to signal our collective disapproval of beating or killing someone because they are gay/Muslim/Jewish/etc.  It also helps in the tracking of violence against certain groups; analysts do like to know why someone was attacked whether its a woman by her husband, a gangster by a rival gang or a Jew by a White Supremacist.

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