Another Mass Shooting

[Guest]

The problem is that you're a right winger. Being atheist or gay friendly obvoiusly isn't enough to overcome that.

Two questions: How did you intepret the two sentences in question?

And, given I'm pro choice, pro gay rights, anti death penalty, pro gun control, pro assisted suicide, anti drug criminalization, pro separation of church and state, pro freedom of speech, etc, etc, how come you think I'm a right winger?

Edited June 16, 2016 by bcsapper

[?Impact]

how come you think I'm a right winger?

Male from Alberta with an avatar that says "Hippies use backdoor". Man, you gotta be a right-winger, even if your posting history doesn't confirm it.

[Argus]

What I do agree with is that in some Islamic cultures, especially the radical/extremist ones like Wahabists/Salafists, giving up your life for a cause you believe in seems to be much easier than other religions. However, the point I am constantly trying to make is that the views and beliefs and moral standards are varied in the Muslim world. There is a problem with people who have a hard time distinguishing between people due to their resistance to want to learn about them.

And how do you weed the bad ones out? Stop all Wahabi and Salafists from entering Canada? Further, being a follower of the Wahabi or Salafists isn't like being a baptist or a Catholic. You don't need some kind of official form or study or application to switch from one to the other. Any Muslim can become intrigued by the messages given by Wahabi clerics and web sites, and become radicalized by watching ISIS videos.

[Guest]

Male from Alberta with an avatar that says "Hippies use backdoor". Man, you gotta be a right-winger, even if your posting history doesn't confirm it.

Yeah, fair enough. Actually I'm a male from the UK who only moved to Alberta ten years ago, after spending 22 years in Vancouver. Hence the Hippy sign.

I'm actually quite centrist.

[Hal 9000]

What a silly thing to say. Where were YOU? How come you weren't protesting him? That should give you your answer.

I don't live in Florida...or anywhere in the USA for that matter.

I just find it unusual that people (Bernie people) would protest perceived hate speech and not protest someone actually calling for the death of an entire group of people. I can only imagine that the reason is they either feel safe protesting Trump or they really don't care about hate speech directed at homosexuals.

[eyeball]

LOL at the moral equivalency that keeps going on. You guys have to dig pretty hard to find Christians killing people in the name of Christ in the last few hundred years.

You can only puke at the presumption of morality from a culture that's happily killed millions upon millions and consigned hundreds of millions more to tyranny, in our own name just in the last 60 years or so.

[eyeball]

Yeah, fair enough. Actually I'm a male from the UK who only moved to Alberta ten years ago, after spending 22 years in Vancouver. Hence the Hippy sign.

I got the same sense ?impact did and had much the same reply in mind.

I'm actually quite centrist.

If you say so. I guess I don't see to many shades of grey left around much of this nonsense anymore.

[bush_cheney2004]

I got the same sense ?impact did and had much the same reply in mind.

If you say so. I guess I don't see to many shades of grey left around much of this nonsense anymore.

Quite understandable....as it is imperative to classify and label each member for discussing the pressing issues that flash across the TV screen.

Another one will soon be upon us...in living color...not grey.

[cybercoma]

Army Guy

Most of the killings in the USA via gun violence I suspect are from gangs and people who don't register their firearms OR obtain them legally in the first place. The access to the weapons is one issue, but mental health is also another major factor which gets glossed over in these threads.

So there are multiple factors that many here at least understand or acknowledge. Those who pigeon hole this into just Islam are simply trolling.

I think we make a serious mistake when we believe mental illness is a prerequisite to mass murder.

[cybercoma]

I can only imagine that the reason is they either feel safe protesting Trump or they really don't care about hate speech directed at homosexuals.

Then you don't have a very good imagination.

[kimmy]

I think we make a serious mistake when we believe mental illness is a prerequisite to mass murder.

This is something I have a hard time with.

From the comments here it seems like many are content to say "oh, he was just 'mentally unstable'" and dismiss any further factors in his decision to kill.

The woman in my avatar-- Roza Shanina-- killed more people than Omar Mateen. And she's not considered 'mentally unstable'. She's considered a great hero. I don't doubt that there are people out there who would consider Omar Mateen a great hero as well.

The people Roza killed were Nazis, many of them rival snipers. The people Omar killed were homosexuals. Depending on your ideological point of view... who is to say which one is the real hero? To me, Roza is a hero and Omar is a villain. But to someone from an opposing ideological viewpoint, maybe Roza was 'mentally unstable' and Omar is a true hero. Isn't the difference kind of subjective?

Personally, I don't agree with the use of the phrase "mentally unstable" being used to mean "somebody whose motives I don't understand". To me, it seems like a cop-out, a way of saying "I can't personally relate to this, therefore it's not real". Maybe to Omar Mateen the need to fight homosexuals was very real, just as for Roza Shaninia the need to fight Nazis was very real.

-k

[Hal 9000]

Then you don't have a very good imagination.

OK, you'll suggest there is something else, but let me guess, you'll never give an answer.

[marcus]

And how do you weed the bad ones out? Stop all Wahabi and Salafists from entering Canada? Further, being a follower of the Wahabi or Salafists isn't like being a baptist or a Catholic. You don't need some kind of official form or study or application to switch from one to the other. Any Muslim can become intrigued by the messages given by Wahabi clerics and web sites, and become radicalized by watching ISIS videos.

This is about more than weeding out the bad ones. Your comment suggests that the bad ones appear out of thin air and without any reason.

We have to look to the reasons why the bad ones are able to spread and our role in allowing it to spread. Here is a summary of our contribution to it:

- Our continuous role in destabilizing countries around the world

- Our political support for dictators

- Our military sales to dictators

- Our killing of civilians and the excuses we create

- Our inability to distinguish between the bad ones and the majority

- Our hypocrisy and double standards

I am 100% sure that the ugliness of resistance would have very little chance of spreading if we approached the world differently.

Edited June 17, 2016 by marcus

[marcus]

Here is a video from the woman who was married to the Orlando killer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHK3lRZPoQY

[cybercoma]

OK, you'll suggest there is something else, but let me guess, you'll never give an answer.

I gave you an answer; it's not my problem if you have trouble piecing it together. Here's another hint: where were all the anti-Muslim Republicans to protest this guy?

Your argument is ridiculous. People don't sit around monitoring speaking engagements at mosques. It's only after the fact that we find these things out. According to you, that's beyond your imagination.

Edited June 17, 2016 by cybercoma

[Spiderfish]

This is something I have a hard time with.

From the comments here it seems like many are content to say "oh, he was just 'mentally unstable'" and dismiss any further factors in his decision to kill.

The woman in my avatar-- Roza Shanina-- killed more people than Omar Mateen. And she's not considered 'mentally unstable'. She's considered a great hero. I don't doubt that there are people out there who would consider Omar Mateen a great hero as well.

The people Roza killed were Nazis, many of them rival snipers. The people Omar killed were homosexuals. Depending on your ideological point of view... who is to say which one is the real hero? To me, Roza is a hero and Omar is a villain. But to someone from an opposing ideological viewpoint, maybe Roza was 'mentally unstable' and Omar is a true hero. Isn't the difference kind of subjective?

Personally, I don't agree with the use of the phrase "mentally unstable" being used to mean "somebody whose motives I don't understand". To me, it seems like a cop-out, a way of saying "I can't personally relate to this, therefore it's not real". Maybe to Omar Mateen the need to fight homosexuals was very real, just as for Roza Shaninia the need to fight Nazis was very real.

-k

I agree, and have put forward similar arguments as well in the past that a person’s perspective dictates their point of view. I’ve suggested as much on this forum actually, and was quickly informed that there is a societal norm in which all members of society are required to conform. This societal norm comes from social standards that are created and set by the people and their government, and anyone who holds subjective opinions outside of this norm are outcasts that should be shunned.

Society in the last 20-40 years has gone from viewing homosexuality as a mental disorder (a viewpoint stated even by the most celebrated socialist our great county has ever seen and the founder of our revered health care system, Tommy Douglas), to something that should not only be accepted as a social norm, but in fact celebrated. Apparently, we have no right to hold ideological points of view outside the social norm, which makes your inquiry and corresponding viewpoint moot. Get with the program.

....

Of course, this theory seems to contradict the fact that viewpoints change over time. On second thought…never mind, thank goodness for people who think outside the box and don’t live with their head in the sand.

[waldo]

From the comments here it seems like many are content to say "oh, he was just 'mentally unstable'" and dismiss any further factors in his decision to kill.

But to someone from an opposing ideological viewpoint, maybe Roza was 'mentally unstable' and Omar is a true hero. Isn't the difference kind of subjective?

Personally, I don't agree with the use of the phrase "mentally unstable" being used to mean "somebody whose motives I don't understand". To me, it seems like a cop-out, a way of saying "I can't personally relate to this, therefore it's not real". Maybe to Omar Mateen the need to fight homosexuals was very real, just as for Roza Shaninia the need to fight Nazis was very real.

I guess I've missed reading those, 'from many', comments you describe - those "contented and dismissive" comments that settle in on a presumptive mental incapacity being the only factor. Well, wait now... if someone does have mental incapacity, doesn't that factor into a/your presumptive view that rational thought was driving any actions taken? In the face of presumptive mental incapacity, how does one attempt to rationalize "opposing ideological perspectives" as a subjective determiner for the differing viewpoints taken, in "early days", by those so needing find an answer and apply labels?

.

[Argus]

This is about more than weeding out the bad ones. Your comment suggests that the bad ones appear out of thin air and without any reason.

We have to look to the reasons why the bad ones are able to spread and our role in allowing it to spread. Here is a summary of our contribution to it:

- Our continuous role in destabilizing countries around the world

- Our political support for dictators

- Our military sales to dictators

- Our killing of civilians and the excuses we create

- Our inability to distinguish between the bad ones and the majority

- Our hypocrisy and double standards

I am 100% sure that the ugliness of resistance would have very little chance of spreading if we approached the world differently.

This bleeding heart nonsense never passes the smell test. Where are the African terrorists? What about the Asian terrorists? The South American terrorists? Nobody is doing this sort of thing except Muslims, often those born in the US or Europe.

[marcus]

This bleeding heart nonsense never passes the smell test.

Your ego and false masculinity got in the way again. I will educate you and I hope you don't continue to pass your ignorance as facts:

Where are the African terrorists?

Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Suda, Niger, Congo and several other countries in Africa have some of the highest acts of terrorism in the world.

What about the Asian terrorists?

Myanmar, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and India all have relatively high terrorist activities.

The South American terrorists?

When the US was more active in destabilizing South America, terrorism activity was VERY high.

Nobody is doing this sort of thing except Muslims, often those born in the US or Europe.

That's only happening in your head and this is where the problem is. For example, acts of terrorism happening in US and Europe is very low compared to most other parts of the world. Your bigotry which stems from stubbornness and ignorance does not allow you to look at the world correctly.

[marcus]

From the comments here it seems like many are content to say "oh, he was just 'mentally unstable'" and dismiss any further factors in his decision to kill.

Perhaps you know more than his ex wife about his no connection between Mateen and ISIS.

Edited June 17, 2016 by marcus

[GostHacked]

This bleeding heart nonsense never passes the smell test. Where are the African terrorists? What about the Asian terrorists? The South American terrorists? Nobody is doing this sort of thing except Muslims, often those born in the US or Europe.

Then let's simply call it terrorism. As there have been (and still ongoing) attacks in Africa (Boko Harem) South America (still issues in Columbia ect). Stuff is still going on in the Ukraine (were are the media reports about that?)

So this is part of my notion about the media and how many of those attacks abroad are not really reported in western MSM. All you hear recently is the attack in Orlando.

[Guest]

Then let's simply call it terrorism. As there have been (and still ongoing) attacks in Africa (Boko Harem) South America (still issues in Columbia ect). Stuff is still going on in the Ukraine (were are the media reports about that?)

So this is part of my notion about the media and how many of those attacks abroad are not really reported in western MSM. All you hear recently is the attack in Orlando.

There will generally be more news about events closer to home, and about events that are out of the ordinary. The Orlando event was close to home, and while mass shootings are not out of the ordinary in the US, this one was because of the numbers, the victims, and the motivation.

[GostHacked]

There will generally be more news about events closer to home, and about events that are out of the ordinary. The Orlando event was close to home, and while mass shootings are not out of the ordinary in the US, this one was because of the numbers, the victims, and the motivation.

France is no where near our home (Canada or the USA) but yet, we heard about it for weeks.

[Guest]

France is no where near our home (Canada or the USA) but yet, we heard about it for weeks.

That was the out of the ordinary factor? And France is a lot nearer our home than miles would dictate.

[Argus]

Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Suda, Niger, Congo and several other countries in Africa have some of the highest acts of terrorism in the world.

That's a very snotty post for a guy who doesn't even seem to understand what he's replying to.

I don't care about what foreigners are doing in their own country. Why aren't they blowing up restaurants and gunning down people in London, Paris and New York? Why is it only Muslims? Why do the flakes and cretins of the far Left keep glossing over that in their moronic tales about the poor Muslims just responding to cruel western domination?

Edited June 17, 2016 by Argus