Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Dougie93]

Don't forget that F-16 is still in production, it can do everything Super Hornet does, for cheaper, and with much greater economies of scale.

Over 3000 F-16 Vipers in service with 25 nations around the world.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Don't forget that F-16 is still in production, it can do everything Super Hornet does, for cheaper, and with much greater economies of scale.

 

LockMart is not offering the F-16 Block 70's for Canada's tender, as this would undermine F-35 JSF program sales.

Canada is a dues paying, Tier 3 member of the F-35 JSF program...since 1997.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

LockMart is not offering the F-16 Block 70's for Canada's tender, as this would undermine F-35 JSF program sales.

Canada is a dues paying, Tier 3 member of the F-35 JSF program...since 1997.

Canada is a JSF partner who has reopened the tender for competition

It is at CEO Hewson's discretion as to which product she prefers to enter in the competition.

Never the less, if Canada were to place an ACAN for F-16 Super Viper, no doubt in my mind we would accept the order, commence production, and deliver far sooner than any other contractor.

[Dougie93]

If Canada had simply chosen F-16 Viper in the first place, Canada wouldn't even be in this predicament.

Hornet is an orphaned fleet, Viper is still going strong

If Canada had Vipers now, they wouldn't even need to be replaced yet, we could extend their lives much longer and much more affordably than the Hornets.

Loves me some Viper too, Panther is next level, but Viper is still the best value 4th Gen available.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada was (and still is hung up) on two engines vs. one...even though the F-16 has excellent reliability over many years/users.

The Royal Canadian Air Procurement Farce

https://c2cjournal.ca/2018/10/the-royal-canadian-air-procurement-farce/

[Dougie93]

That being said, Viper is the Lawn Dart.

The reason why Eagle Drivers call it that, is that if you go into the teeth of the advesary with Viper alone, you are going to suffer more attrition.

But I don't take Lawn Dart as an insult, it's a badge of honor, reason being that Viper is meant to be affordable, best value, but not a replacement for Eagle.

Viper is the lo asset in the hi-lo mix.

Panther can do it all, Viper can't, but Viper can still do better than Super Hornet, Super Hornet is not junk, but Viper is still better for cheaper.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Viper has peaked in its life cycle for upgrades and capabilities.   Great program...the Israelis still love their F-16s too, but it is time to move on.

 

 

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Viper has peaked in its life cycle for upgrades and capabilities.   Great program...the Israelis still love their F-16s too, but it is time to move on.

Will continue be operated by partner nations for decades to come, Poland, UAE, Taiwan, etcetera, brand new Vipers rolling off the line right now.

Viper will still be flying, long after the Advanced Super Hornets have been retired to the Boneyard.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Will continue be operated by partner nations for decades to come, Poland, UAE, Taiwan, etcetera, brand new Vipers rolling off the line right now.

Viper will still be flying, long after the Advanced Super Hornets have been retired to the Boneyard.

 

So are F-5 Tigers....but that's for the poor folks.    Canada has already been there and done that.

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

So are F-5 Tigers....but that's for the poor folks.    Canada has already been there and done that.

Panther is better than Viper, but Viper is still way better than Super Hornet. 

Super Hornet is an orphaned fleet already,  to go with Super Honet, Canada would be making the exact same mistake twice in a row.

Which is typical Canada, once a warrior nation perhaps, however it is the arguably most unmartial country in the history of the world now.

[Dougie93]

This is all due to institutional Inertia.  DND never thinks outside of its box.   DND simply tries to rebuild itself in its own Cold War image as the Government tries to dismantle.

The vast majority of Canadians haven't got a clue about the big picture, to include those who are serving in the CF, most pers in the CF actually drink most of the Kool-Aid which comes down from NDHQ. 

Even in the case of throwing Mark Norman under the bus, DND pers rallied around the CDS, cronyism is rampant in the CF.

[Dougie93]

The other issue is logistics, as a Boutique Military, it doesn't have its own logistics tail.

It can't support a mixed fleet, it can't support a fleet of dedicated assets.

It needs to be all in one solutions for Canada, turnkey supported by the Pentagon, with economies of scale from a global supply chain for an active rather than orphaned fleet.

Ideally it would provide Superpower like capability at a Middle Power prices, which could be deployed with or without allied support at Canada's discretion.

Again, the F-35 is literally made for Canada, Canada just spits out the bit, because Canada is fundamentally naive, deluded and unmartial.

[Army Guy]

With out a doubt we should be looking at the F-35 very hard , but the F-35 does has some faults, like it is meant to fly under the protection of the F-22, as the F-35 is not the best dog fighter, it has been bested by most gen 4 aircraft in a med to short range fight....Boeing has come up with another solution by offering the F-15 X, YA , I know smoke another joint Army Guy....this would mean having a two aircraft systems , additional operational / training costs, etc, etc , and yet the US is thinking about purchasing limited numbers to replace F-15 C,D and at the low price of "65" mil a copy, ya thats right 65 mil a copy. These new missile / bomb trucks now carry up to 22 air to air, or shit loads of bombs, and has 20,000 airframe hours...even Canada could not fly 20,000 hours ….. with the F-35 spotting and the F-15 hanging back and just launching it could make up for the lack of missile the F-35 can carry, not only that the F-15X is still capable of doing ground to ground ops, and is still a very viable fighter....with the range to fly over any artic regions we may have at faster than 2. 5 Mach, plus once again which could be used when we are not concerned about air defenses , like Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali....burning up valuable F-35 hours 

Plus the 88 fighters we are currently in need of does not cover the ground to ground capabilities all these fighters already have NORAD or NATO tasks , which leaves little to no aircraft to support ground operations....

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22372/exclusive-unmasking-the-f-15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

 

[Dougie93]

F-22 is not an option for Canada, so invoking F-22 as being better is a glaring fallacy.

Moreover, the performance envelop where F-22 exceeds F-35 is prohibitively expensive for Canada anyways.  Canada doesn't have that capability now, isn't going to buy it, never has had it, never has had to use it.

Furthermore the assertion that F-35 is the inferior dogfighter is incorrect, F-35 has its own advantages which it make better A2A than the Raptor, without having to dogfight at all. 

A dogfight is simply maneuvering to get behind the opponent, F-35 changes the way things are done, so that is no longer necessary for F-35 to get the first look, first shot, first kill.

Fake News is fake news, and F-35 v Raptor is fake news, dictionary definition of.

F-15X for "$65 million" is also fake news, F-15X will be more expensive than F-35, both in terms of fly away price, but even more so in terms of lifetime costs.

F-15 flying at Mach 2.5 in combat, also fake news, F-15 combat loaded doesn't exceed Mach 1.6  The XF-15 flew Mach 2.5 only once, stripped down and clean for the test, that is not the F-15's operational top speed.

When Combat loaded, F-35 is just as fast as combat loaded F-15, Mach 1.6 also.

Fighters also do not fly long distance in afterburner, the cruising speeds are all the same 0.8-0.9 Mach, except only for F-22 which can Supercruiise at 1.6-1.8 in full mil power without afterburner.

F-15 having more missiles is fake news, internal and external F-35 can carry the same, internal with stealth tho, it doesn't need as many because it can get closer to maximize the missile performance, whereas most missiles launched further away by F-15 will be wasted when they run out of energy well short of the target.

This is all the sort of fake news which muddies the waters, Canadians who think they know something about it, but have gotten all their talking points from fake news misinformation  passed around on the internet.

F-35 is best A2G.  F-35 is best A2A.  F-35 does it all.   Not even Raptor can do what F-35 does, but F-35 can do Raptors job in a pinch.

F-15 is relegated to a supporting role, but since Canada would never buy F-15, even that salient point is moot.

Even so, again,  when real world combat loaded instead of airshow clean, the F-35 is just as fast as F-15 and more maneuverable, because soon as you hang fuel and ordinance under the F-15, it can't fly at the airframe top speed nor maneuver at its maximum envelope like F-35 can.

F-15 also doesn't have sensor fusion, so it has to fly in close formation to watch each others back, F-35 doesn't need to, F-35 can fly and fight adaptive and dispersed.

F-15 needs the full gamut of support assets, AWACS, SEAD, EW, ELINT, ISR, BDA, F-35 does all that for itself, so doesn't need those dedicated assets.

F-15 as the alternative is comparing apples to oranges.  They are both jet fighters, but still radically different in concept of operations, and F-35 is cheaper net net.

The way the Americans use F-15 now, it's just a bomb/missile truck for F-35, F-35 goes in and finds the targets, F-15 hangs back and shoots on the plays called by the Panther Quarterback.  If F-15 tried to go where F-35 goes, F-15 will be spotted coming from way out and get shot down.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

This is not to say F-15 was not great in its day, and F-15 was accused of being all the things the fake reform gurus accuse F-35 of being now.

F-15 was called an "overpriced overly complex hangar queen" by the same clowns back in the 1970's

It's not a viable of alternative to F-35, but it's still a bad assed jam for its age, no doubt.

Bad Company.   America.  F*ck. Yeah.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[DogOnPorch]

This thing is amazing. It's like having the latest smart phone while the detractors are happy with their old home telephone. The radar alone is ahead of most anything out there...

 

[Dougie93]

Particularly with the avionics package to exploit the radar, radar used to be like Pong, Sensor Fusion takes all the sensors and off board data to give the God's Eye View 360 degrees around the jet, that's how they don't need AWACS, they can take data from AWACS, but even without AWACS they can fly dispersed as singles, the jet watches your back for you, practically impossible to get jumped, which is how most kills are achieved.

The 360 degree display portal is something the jet is generating for itself, it reaches out and pulls data to it, then fuses it into an easy to indertsand God's Eye View for the pilot.  No other fighter does this, Raptor does an early version of it, but that pales compared to the latest version for F-35.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Also, just an update, Lockheed Martin has developed a new internal stores pylon for F-35 called Sidekick.  It increases the internal air to air missile load to 8

That can be 8 x AMRAAM or 6 x AMRAAM + 2 x ASRAAM.

Bear in mind that is in Stealth Mode.

Stealth Mode is when employed in the role of the F-117A Nighthawk Stealth Fighter; First Night Of War.

Once the IADS is destroyed, the Panther switches to Beast Mode.

External stores added.  6 more pylons 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

So basically the F-35 is a hard to detect, self-contained intelligence node with the speed and agility to dogfight like perhaps no other fighter with the destructive magnitude of a bomber.  See, this kind of information shows the public why the F-35 is worth procuring.  

There are many things I’d like for the Canadian Forces, such as aircraft carriers and new subs, but I think much of the old hardware is obsoleted by the F-35.  Between patrol ships, drones, some lesser jets like the Super Hornets, and a handful of the F-35’s, we’d have a formidable capacity.  The question isn’t whether to buy the F-35, but how many.  

[Rue]

13 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Particularly with the avionics package to exploit the radar, radar used to be like Pong, Sensor Fusion takes all the sensors and off board data to give the God's Eye View 360 degrees around the jet, that's how they don't need AWACS, they can take data from AWACS, but even without AWACS they can fly dispersed as singles, the jet watches your back for you, practically impossible to get jumped, which is how most kills are achieved.

The 360 degree display portal is something the jet is generating for itself, it reaches out and pulls data to it, then fuses it into an easy to indertsand God's Eye View for the pilot.  No other fighter does this, Raptor does an early version of it, but that pales compared to the latest version for F-35.

 

No pilot wants to replace their own eyes and rely on simulated vision. You have bought in to over reliance on technology to replace basic skills. Natural vision is basic and necessary. To replace it is arrogant and foolish. Have you seen the blindspots on the 35? If that helmet does not work then what? You have a blind bird. I call that a turkey.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

19 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Boeing has landed a US Navy contract for new F-18 E/F Block III aircraft, which has upgrades to address the F-18 gaps with F-35 and fleet needs.   Block III adds conformal tanks for longer range (like F-16 Block 60), Growler processors and better networking, stealthier forward profile and coatings, and service life extension from 6,000 to 10,000 hours.   The U.S. Navy will run with mixed carrier based squadrons of F-18 E/F/G and F-35C through at least 2030.

Along with planned upgrades for all Block IIs to Block III (but oldest F-18 E/F will not be upgraded), Boeing has effectively breathed new life into the Super Hornet program to keep the line alive in St. Louis at two per month minimum.   Retrofit work could happen at another facility.

What this means for Canada is significantly less life cycle risk if the F-18 Super Hornet is chosen, setting aside all squabbling with Boeing over Bombardier.

 

Tories are committed to the 35 and Trudeau because of Bombardier will never deal with Boeing and the modified 18 for it's money has too short a shelf life before it is replaced making it impractical money wise.

[Rue]

18 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

F-35 restores Canada to middle power status in of itself.

Full Spectrum Dominance, Air Superiority, Air Interdiction, Air Support, Air Defense, Airborne Early Warning & Control, Airborne Electronic Warfare.

No need for escort. No need for SEAD.  No need for AWACS.  No need for EW.  No need for ELINT.    No need to fly in close formation.   F-35 Panther does it all.

Strategic asset at Canada's level of operations, Superpower capability at Middle Power prices.

No. The 35 version we would purchase would not. 

[Dougie93]

28 minutes ago, Rue said:

No pilot wants to replace their own eyes and rely on simulated vision. You have bought in to over reliance on technology to replace basic skills. Natural vision is basic and necessary. To replace it is arrogant and foolish. Have you seen the blindspots on the 35? If that helmet does not work then what? You have a blind bird. I call that a turkey.

You are spreading false information.  No pilot I have spoken to has been anything less than over the top enthusiastic about the game changing nature of F-35, including an ex-RCAF CF-18 pilot who lives just down the street from me here, and Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn who is the most combat experienced CF-18 pilot of them all.

Its has nothing to do with arrogance, it's like going from Flip phone to iPhone and complaining that is doesn't flip anymore, which you might be doing, but which the pilots do not do.

The pilots more than anyone understand how  to exploit the technology, and this is a young force, these are Millennial pilots now, so it works the way they are used to working.

Unlike a 4th generation fighter, there are no blind spots on the jet at all, it's staring IRST hemispheric coverage out to beyond visual range.  The jet is looking in all directions, you don't need a bubble canopy anymore, because nobody can sneak past the infrared all seeing eye, it detects other fighters before they are in visual range with the naked eye.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

No. The 35 version we would purchase would not. 

The Canadian CF-35A would not be inferior in any way to other F-35s,  so don't know what you mean.

[Rue]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So basically the F-35 is a hard to detect, self-contained intelligence node with the speed and agility to dogfight like perhaps no other fighter with the destructive magnitude of a bomber.  See, this kind of information shows the public why the F-35 is worth procuring.  

There are many things I’d like for the Canadian Forces, such as aircraft carriers and new subs, but I think much of the old hardware is obsoleted by the F-35.  Between patrol ships, drones, some lesser jets like the Super Hornets, and a handful of the F-35’s, we’d have a formidable capacity.  The question isn’t whether to buy the F-35, but how many.  

The F35 is loud and so of course it can be detected. You bought in to stealth technology hype. First off why does Canada which needs to intercept and show the flag need to be stealth? Next to be stealth you have to take off missiles and outside tanks limiting it's fire power and flight distance. Next  stealth is not guaranteed and it has been detected in tests. No we are not doing anything requiring stealth in fact the exact opposite. Canada needs an inteceptor not a craft trying to replace the Warthog and copters in low air desert anti tank war as well as trying to be a low level secret bomber and also a dog fighter. It can't do all 4 without conflicting operational needs creati my compromised operational capability in all it's different roles.