Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Dougie93]

The idea that you need a big federal government to have a strong military is obvious nonsense.

New Zealand has a stronger defense force than Canada.

Denmark has a stronger defense force than Canada.

Switzerland, Belgium, Ireland, all better defended than Canada.

Singapore is just a city, and the Singapore Armed Forces put the CF to shame, Singapore is a real Middle Power.

The Singapore Army is 100,000 active personnel with 400,000 in reserve, can be mobilized on short notice, the Israel of the South Pacific.

The Singapore Air Force has a mixed fleet; F-15 Strike Eagle, F-16 Super Viper, AH-64 Apache Longbow, and they will be adding F-35 on top of all that.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Singapore. 

Population; 5 million

GDP; $323 billion

So it's the size and wealth of Alberta or British Columbia

With a military which could destroy the CF with ease, just by firepower alone.

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Singapore. 

Population; 5 million

GDP; $323 billion

So it's the size and wealth of Alberta or British Columbia

With a military which could destroy the CF with ease, just by firepower alone.

Does Singapore have nukes?  No, under SEANWFZ.  There’s no way Singapore could attack and destroy Canada, let alone occupy it.  A Canadian missile strike on Singapore would make short work of the place.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

But you want to know the really damning part?

Singapore defence budget; $14 billion

Canada defence budget; $21 billion

So not only does the city of Singapore have a military which dwarfs Canada's in all respects, they have that for two thirds of the price of what Canada spends in the CF boondoggle.

That's what you get from the Government of Canada.  Vastly less than everybody else, at a much higher price.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Does Singapore have nukes?  No, under SEANWFZ.  There’s no way Singapore could attack and destroy Canada, let alone occupy it.  A Canadian missile strike on Singapore would make short work of the place.  

What missiles do you think Canada has? 

This is where it gets laughable as to how ignorant Canadians are as to how degraded their military capability actually is.

And Singapore doesn't need to occupy Canada, since the Singapore Navy is more powerful than the RCN, Singapore could simply blockade Canada into submission.

[Dougie93]

And bear in mind that small countries like Singapore, who really punch above their weight class, don't have to come all the way to North America to blockade Canada into submission.

They can target Canadian assets on the high seas anywhere in the world, and Canada does not have the power projection to stop them.

Moreover, America is not going to war with its own proxies for Canada.

Barring attack on North America itself, America would say "hey, knock that off", but they wouldn't actually intervene directly.

Argentina was an American client in 1982, America told them to knock it off, but the Americans did not intervene directly on behalf of the British Crown.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

It's like Canada's submarines are junk, the NDP and CBC are not lying about that.  

SSK-876 is an orphaned fleet, nobody makes parts for them anymore, they are old, they are busted, they are constantly having to return to port to do repairs.

Complete waste of money, could not sustain operations at sea in the event of war.

Tiny Singapore's navy meanwhile?

State of the Art.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

52 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

And bear in mind that small countries like Singapore, who really punch above their weight class, don't have to come all the way to North America to blockade Canada into submission.

They can target Canadian assets on the high seas anywhere in the world, and Canada does not have the power projection to stop them.

Moreover, America is not going to war with its own proxies for Canada.

Barring attack on North America itself, America would say "hey, knock that off", but they wouldn't actually intervene directly.

Argentina was an American client in 1982, America told them to knock it off, but the Americans did not intervene directly on behalf of the British Crown.

Any attack on a NATO country requires NATO retaliation.  An attack on Canada is a suicide mission.  Nevertheless, your point about the vulnerability of Canadians on foreign missions, when not in concert with allies, is important for Canadians to understand.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Any attack on a NATO country requires NATO retaliation.  An attack on Canada is a suicide mission.  Nevertheless, your point about the vulnerability of Canadians on foreign missions, when not in concert with allies, is important for Canadians to understand.  

And yet somehow Argentina invaded British territory itself, and NATO did not come to direct aid, neither did the Americans.

Britain's ostensible ally France was actually supplying the Argentinians.

NATO is as much of a facade as Canada is.

Canadians are totally unmartial and utterly naive when it comes to all things war related.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The European Union is actually attacking the British in Gibraltar right now, harassment and blockading, Economic Warfare on behalf of Spain.

You will note that they are all members of NATO and American clients therein.

When America's allies fight with each other, America doesn't intervene,

And America has allies outside of NATO, called Non NATO Military Allies (NNMA), which Singapore is a critical one, forward naval base.

Singapore is also not a democracy, it's a quasi-fascist state, if Canada pissed them off, they would lay a beat down on Canada, make no mistake.

NATO would not intervene, because it's not in the North Atlantic Security Zone and Singamore is an American NNMA

Canadians know nothing about NATO, they don't understand how it actually works.

Including the fact that there is nothing in the Washington Treaty which stipulates what members must do in the event of Article V declaration.

To protect themselves, the Americans left Article V wide open, each member can decide how much or little they wish to contribute.

In the event of Article V declaration, NATO could fight a nuclear war if that was the threat level

NATO however could also respond with nothing more than a strongly worded letter at the other end of the spectrum.

The Russians themselves attacked the UK with the most lethal chemical weapon earth, Novichok 5.

Do you see NATO doing much about it? 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The European Union is actually attacking the British in Gibraltar right now, harassment and blockading, Economic Warfare on behalf of Spain.

You will note that they are all members of NATO and American clients therein.

When America's allies fight with each other, America doesn't intervene,

And America has allies outside of NATO, called Non Nato Military Allies (NNMA), which Singapore is a critical one, forward naval base.

Yes, but NATO and CSTO countries, China, and India have nuclear weapons for defence.  The issue of protecting Canadians and their assets beyond our borders is an important concern that illustrates the importance of having our own strong hard power, and not just defensive and land based.  This should absolutely include state of the art air and missile capacity.  The navy should have the capacity to support this.  I like the F-35 for that reason, the ability to attack and fight supremely, so that Canada can not only defend with a nuclear deterrence of MAD, but has full first strike nuclear capacity.  This is critical for projecting and protecting Canadian foreign policy and protecting Canadians and their assets.  

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, but NATO and CSTO countries, China, and India have nuclear weapons for defence.  The issue of protecting Canadians and their assets beyond our borders is an important concern that illustrates the importance of having our own strong hard power, and not just defensive and land based.  This should absolutely include state of the art air and missile capacity.  The navy should have the capacity to support this.  I like the F-35 for that reason, the ability to attack and fight supremely, so that Canada can not only defend with a nuclear deterrence of MAD, but has full first strike nuclear capacity.  This is critical for projecting and protecting Canadian foreign policy and protecting Canadians and their assets.  

NATO doesn't have its own nuclear deterrent, all of NATO's nuclear weapons are under the control of the Americans and British in a joint deterrent, then the French have their own independent deterrent.

Even in the event of World War Three, CSTO knows that the nuclear hegemons in NATO are not really going to get themselves nuked for Poland

So the NATO deterrent is not convincing, short of direct nuclear attacks on the Americans, British and French only.

The Soviets knew this as well, their doctrine was to use nukes against NATO countries which would not require the Americans & British to retaliate for.

Moreover nuclear weapons are not effective deterrents at the theater level, if Canada gets itself into a conflict in some theater,  sub startegic level, nobody is pulling the nukes out for Canada,

in fact,  the nuclear Hegemon's of NATO don't trust nor like Canada anymore, so they would be happy to see Canada get its comeuppance to a very significant degree before they would ever begin to intervene. 

Let Canada take the beating, let that be a lesson to all the Free Riders.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Does Singapore have nukes?  No, under SEANWFZ.  There’s no way Singapore could attack and destroy Canada, let alone occupy it.  A Canadian missile strike on Singapore would make short work of the place.  

What missile strike , from CF-18's that are 40 years old give me a break......

[bush_cheney2004]

24 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

And yet somehow Argentina invaded British territory itself, and NATO did not come to direct aid, neither did the Americans.

Britain's ostensible ally France was actually supplying the Argentinians.

 

True, but the Americans did favour the British by providing satellite intelligence for the location of Argentine forces (land and sea).   I was at sea at the time and we could see the "red force locator" info in radio traffic coming out of COMSUBLANT (Norfolk).

France told the UK how to best defend against the Exocets (countermeasures).

Which goes to say that Canada wants to continue to benefit from U.S. and other allied intel networks and capabilities...it cannot go it alone.

 

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True, but the Americans did favour the British by providing satellite intelligence for the location of Argentine forces (land and sea).   I was at sea at the time and we could see the "red force locator" info in radio traffic coming out of COMSUBLANT (Norfolk).

France told the UK how to best defend against the Exocets (countermeasures).

Which goes to say that Canada wants to continue to benefit from U.S. and other allied intel networks and capabilities...it cannot go it alone.

 

Hence why I said "did not come to direct aid"

Certainly Canada would get thrown some bones, but nobody is fighting a war for Canada, at the sub strategic level.

If a Singapore or a Saudi Arabia or a Brazil takes action against Canada in some theater somewhere, Washington is not riding to the rescue per se, and they are certainly not going to war against their own NNMA on behalf of Canader,  if Canader provokes a fight with them, and Canada actually does go around the world being provocative now, as you are well aware.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

NATO doesn't have its own nuclear deterrent, all of NATO's nuclear weapons are under the control of the Americans and British in a joint deterrent, then the French have their own independent deterrent.

Even in the event of World War Three, CSTO knows that the nuclear hegemons in NATO are not really going to get themselves nuked for Poland

So the NATO deterrent is not convincing, short of direct nuclear attacks on the Americans, British and French only.

The Soviets knew this as well, their doctrine was to use nukes against NATO countries which would not require the Americans & British to retaliate for.

Moreover nuclear weapons are not effective deterrents at the theater level, if Canada gets itself into a conflict in some theater,  sub startegic level, nobody is pulling the nukes out for Canada,

in fact,  the nuclear Hegemon's of NATO don't trust nor like Canada anymore, so they would be happy to see Canada get its comeuppance to a very significant degree before they would ever begin to intervene. 

Let Canada take the beating, let that be a lesson to all the Free Riders.

Too fuckin bad.  Canada paid a massive price in both World Wars.  France?   Please.  Why France has a permanent security council seat and not Canada was entirely political and nothing to do with the reality of hard power at the time.  The allies knew this and Canada could have had her own sector in Berlin.  Instead Canada retreated from the opportunity and yes, she has compromised her hard power in recent years, not to the degree of uselessness.  We’ve paid in other ways, but the return to hard power is important.  NATO, including and especially the Americans, would be foolish not to support that.  Otherwise, feel free to step in and manage Canada.  You can deal with the land claims, separatists, tree huggers, and identity politicians.  It’s hard enough without having that added expense.  China would happily play that role and has tried to make inroads.  

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Too fuckin bad.  Canada paid a massive price in both World Wars.  France?   Please.  Why France has a permanent security council seat and not Canada was entirely political and nothing to do with the reality of hard power at the time.  The allies knew this and Canada could have had her own sector in Berlin.  Instead Canada retreated from the opportunity and yes, she has compromised her hard power in recent years, not to the degree of uselessness.  We’ve paid in other ways, but the return to hard power is important.  NATO, including and especially the Americans, would be foolish not to support that.  Otherwise, feel free to step in and manage Canada.  You can deal with the land claims, separatists, tree huggers, and identity politicians.  It’s hard enough without having that added expense.  China would happily play that role and has tried to make inroads.  

Nobody cares about the Second World War anymore, everybody did their part, Canada's contribution was not that significant

The Soviets did most of the fighting, suffered twenty million dead, you think Putin cares what Canada has to say about World War Two?

If Canada invokes World War Two at its allies, they are going to roll their eyes at Free Rider Canada.

That was British Canada who fought those wars, the Liberal Party of Canada erased that Canada and replaced it with its own dogma.

The Post National State has no allies at all, lift up your heads and look around.

The Post National State is inherently isolationist, the rest of the world is turning away.

As to the Permanent Five on the UNSC, they are there because they have the power to destroy the world, so there needs to be a veto to stave off nuclear wars.

An UNSC resolution Chapter 7 against the Russians; means World War Three, that's why the Russians have a veto to make sure that doesn't happen.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Furthermore, when Canada operated under the UN, Canada is not protected by NATO per se.

At the Medak Pocket, the Croats attacked the PPCLI because the Patricia's were in their way.

The Pat's of course were fully prepared to go down swinging for Lady Patricia, they were leaning into it, bring it on.

None the less, if the Croats had decided to press the issue, the Patricia's would have been overrrun and destroyed.

And NATO wouldn't have done much about it.

And Canada had nothing on stand by to come to the Patricia's aid, they were out on a limb with nothing backing them up.

[Dougie93]

Again, CANSOFCOM is all Canada has left in the quiver.

If Canadians or Canadian Forces are in trouble somewhere, there's only one thing ready to go on short notice to their aid.

Whether that be Non Combatant Evacuation (NEO) or Quick Reaction Force (QRF), it's gonna be CANSOFCOM.

With their crappy CH-146 helicopters.

This is where CANSOFCOM, which is really a mini army within the Army, needs its own mini air force within the Air Force.

Fighter planes?  Not a necessity, New Zealand doesn't have them, New Zealand spends that money on an Expeditionary Force instead,

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The root of the problem at DND itself, is that they model themselves on the Pentagon, DND tries to be a Mini-Pentagon.

That's who they work with, that's what they look up to, so that's what they want to be.

Problem being; Canada can't afford it and Canadians don't support it.

New Zealand, which is the size and wealth of British Columbia, has a better military than all of Canada

Because New Zealand is not delusional like Canada, New Zealand does what New Zealand does best, and lets the Americans do the big stuff.

Australia models itself on the Pentagon too, Australia wants to be in the big leagues, and they are.

But Canada is not an Australia,  Australia is still very British, and Australia is unified,  there is no such thing as Australian Quebec.

Australians are much more warlike than Canadians, and they are now the Best Small Army in the world, the Germans of the South Pacific.

Canada is not an Australia.  Politically, Canada is a Giant New Zealand.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Not that Canada is going to do this, but If I was dictator, I would get rid of the fighters, the submarines, and close a lot of bases.

Then I would concentrate on an Expeditionary Force, New Zealand style, although Canada's could be much bigger and badder if the money wasn't being wasted.

CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM)

CANADIAN STANDING CONTINGENCY FORCES (SCF)

The Army would be the basis of recruitment, the Militia would be the core of the army, not the Regular Force.

Regular Force would focus on training.   Training the Militia to be the base, training the Regular Force to feed the elite Expeditionary Force.

RCAF would focus on Special Operations and Expeditionary Aviation, and logistics to support that.

Cut the Surface Combatant contract in half,  7 CSC's instead of 15.

Use the saving to buy Rick Hillier's Big Honking Ship, like New Zealand did.

Order more of the AOR's from Quebec, get four of them to supply your Expeditionary Capability.

Turn the Arctic! mission entirely over to the Coast Guard,  spend all the Arctic! money on the Coast Guard Icebreaker fleet.

The Arctic is not actually Warfare, the Arctic is Lawfare.   International law of the sea.   It's law enforcement, let the Mounties and Coast Guard do it.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Not that Canada is going to do this, but If I was dictator, I would get rid of the fighters, the submarines, and close a lot of bases.

Then I would concentrate on an Expeditionary Force, New Zealand style, although Canada's could be much bigger and badder if the money wasn't being wasted.

CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM)

CANADIAN STANDING CONTINGENCY FORCES (SCF)

The Army would be the basis of recruitment, the Militia would be the core of the army, not the Regular Force.

Regular Force would focus on training.   Training the Militia to be the base, training the Regular Force to feed the elite Expeditionary Force.

RCAF would focus on Special Operations and Expeditionary Aviation, and logistics to support that.

Cut the Surface Combatant contract in half,  7 CSC's instead of 15.

Use the saving to buy Rick Hillier's Big Honking Ship, like New Zealand did.

Order more of the AOR's from Quebec, get four of them to supply your Expeditionary Capability.

Turn the Arctic! mission entirely over to the Coast Guard,  spend all the Arctic! money on the Coast Guard Icebreaker fleet.

I actually disagree.  You want a constabulary with a special ops expeditionary force.  Canada’s long term position is full spectrum military, including what you’ve outlined.  It has to be because Canada will finish up larger than any country in Europe except perhaps Russia.  You’re going to rely on the Yanks to defend 100 million people?   No.  That’s not to say that we can’t scale up gradually.  Canada was and is a larger country than Australia.  It has the Arctic facing Russia with the biggest superpower ally next door, but Canada can’t afford to remain dependent on the hospitality of others.  Trump has made it clear that the US can’t be counted on.  Canada has to make independent threat assessments.  The biggest threat is China.  It’s best we allies stick together and grow the pie or others will eat it.  It serves the US and Canada to support each other, but we need to scale up Canadian hard power, not disable it.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I actually disagree. 

I simply deal with reality, I was a professional soldier, I am a professional military analyst.

I said If I was dictator, what f*ckwit Canadians are actually going to do with it will continue to be sad and failing, but at this point I simply wash my hands of f*ckwit Canada altogether.

[Dougie93]

Like I don't even self identify as a Canadian anymore, DND is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the sad and failing nature of the Post National State Hippie Commune.

I don't work against Canada on behalf of foreign powers, I'm out to bring Confederation down, yes, but only by peaceful democratic means within the confines of the Canada Act.

Otherwise I do reserve the right to operate as a Private Military Contractor, but that is all bound by my oath to Elizabeth Windsor, I don't contract to interests which threaten the British Crown.

[Zeitgeist]

As a Canadian soldier your duty is to Canada, with or without the Queen, whom I respect.  I could point to much dysfunction in the US and all countries.  Canada has her problems, but the country where you choose to live is a package deal.  Feel free to seek reform.  I encourage it.  Despite the problems I’ll take this package over any other.  Leave the dance with the one who brung ya.  

Edited September 8, 2019 by Zeitgeist