Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Yzermandius19]

What kind of pilot wouldn't like to see through his jet? No pilot, no pilot at all.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It is entirely patriotic to have contempt for Confederation, it was never unanimous in any way, not in 1867, not now.

Quebec hasn't even signed the Canada Act.  

There's nothing more Canadian than God save the Queen & Vive le Quebec libre.

Multiculturalism, learn to deal.

CF-35A in RCAF livery

Love that graphic.  The tail looks swish.  It would give such a lift and vote of confidence to the military if the government backed this.  

It reminds me of when I was living in Russia traveling by train through a quiet rural area and suddenly coming upon a row of MIG’s.  Just reminds you that in the remotest of places, they are on alert.  That security is worth a helluva lot.  And these can do more than MIG’s...

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

What kind of pilot wouldn't like to see through his jet? No pilot, no pilot at all.

People get the impression it's clunky.   It's not clunky.  It's seamlessly flexible.  The pilot zooms in and out through the modes moment to moment.

In combat, as in the video I posted earlier, the jet is on autopilot, the pilot is looking at the Sensor Fusion picture and making decisions about what to do.

If at a moment he needs to look out at something, he just looks at it in whatever mode for a moment, then goes back to what he was doing.

If he gets into air to air combat he's probably using the square to look at the other jet most of the time.

The Sensor Fusion is marking it for him in any direction it goes, so he just brings that square around to look at whoever he is maneuvering against.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Love that graphic.  The tail looks swish.  It would give such a lift and vote of confidence to the military if the government backed this. 

But it will just end up sucking funding from other things, it's a shell game, if they spend $10 billion on this, they will cut it from somewhere else, so it's not a net gain.

[Dougie93]

Justin Trudeau is right, Canada is a Fake Country.  As such it has a fake Boutique Military.  Everything it does is an inhrent boondoggle.

Buying any fighter planes at all is a boondoggle.   Fake Countries don't need air forces, Fake Countries can get along fine with Fake Air Forces.

Marshall McLuhan knows.

[Yzermandius19]

20 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

People get the impression it's clunky.   It's not clunky.  It's seamlessly flexible.  The pilot zooms in and out through the modes moment to moment.

In combat, as in the video I posted earlier, the jet is on autopilot, the pilot is looking at the Sensor Fusion picture and making decisions about what to do.

If at a moment he needs to look out at something, he just looks at it in whatever mode for a moment, then goes back to what he was doing.

If he gets into air to air combat he's probably using the square to look at the other jet most of the time.

The Sensor Fusion is marking it for him in any direction it goes, so he just brings that square around to look at whoever he is maneuvering against.

Rue is engaging in the best seat in the house fallacy. Judges in MMA sit cageside and judge the fight using their eyes, from what they call "the best seat in the house, even though they have access to monitors as well, and the view you get on the monitor is 100x better than using your own eyes from a cage side seat, 99% of the time.

But they very often just stubbornly refuse to just look at the monitor, thinking their eyes from their seat are better than looking at the best of multiple camera angles, which plays into why they judge so poorly all the damn time. Rue is a sh*tty MMA judge who thinks the F-35 is losing a fight it is very clearly winning because he refuses to watch the damn monitor, and he think pilots are sh*tty MMA judges too.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Rue is engaging in the best seat in the house fallacy. Judges in MMA sit cageside and judge the fight using their eyes, even though they have access to monitors as well, and the view you get on the monitor is 100x better than using your own eyes from a cage side seat, 99% of the time. But they very often just stubbornly refuse to just look at the monitor, thinking their eyes from their seat are better than looking at the best of multiple camera angles, which plays into why they judge so poorly all the damn time. Rue is a sh*tty MMA judge who thinks the F-35 is losing a fight it is very clearly winning because he refuses to watch the damn monitor, and he think pilots are sh*tty MMA judges too.

Indeed.   They are elite pilots, they quickly learn how to use it as second nature, it quickly makes everything they've used before obsolete. 

The Sensor Fusion is in both 2D and 3D at the same time, on the display in front of them, Tactical Situational Display, that's your 2D God's Eye View from "above"

Through the helmet it's all in 3D out there, Virtual and Augmented Reality, all the targets and whatnot on the 2D display are superimposed in the helmet view as well.

But Sensor Fusion is more than that. 

It's not just displaying for the pilot, Sensor Fusion is watching everything for him and processing it, so it is alerting and cuing him to things it detects, identifies and tracks, automatically.

That's the thing that sets F-35 apart, other jets have fancy displays, but they don't have Sensor Fusion, it's just a fancy display, the Sensor Fusion is AI

This is why dogfights are obsolete.  Can't get behind an F-35 without being detected far out, F-35 doesn't need to get behind you to shoot you.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Indeed.   They are elite pilots, they quickly learn how to use it as second nature, it quickly makes everything they've used before obsolete. 

The Sensor Fusion is in both 2D and 3D at the same time, on the display in front of them, Tactical Situational Display, that's your 2D God's Eye View from "above"

Through the helmet it's all in 3D out there, Virtual and Augmented Reality, all the targets and whatnot on the 2D display are superimposed in the helmet view as well.

But Sensor Fusion is more than that. 

It's not just displaying for the pilot, Sensor Fusion is watching everything for him and processing it, so it is alerting and cuing him to things it detects, identifies and tracks, automatically.

That's the thing that sets F-35 apart, other jets have fancy displays, but they don't have Sensor Fusion, it's just a fancy display, the Sensor Fusion is AI

The actual "best seat in the house" moves throughout the fight, you can watch from that seat, by viewing the monitor, while dummies like Rue stare through the cage from a stationary seat and can't see jack sh*t.

F-35 pilots know, MMA judges don't know.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The actual "best seat in the house" moves throughout the fight, and you can watch from that seat, by viewing the monitor, while dummies like Rue stare through the cage from a stationary seat and can't see jack sh*t. F-35 pilots know, MMA judges don't know.

Stealth is important, that's what avoids war of attrition, Stealth gets you to the place you need to be to take the shot before the other guy.

Sensor Fusion tho, is the real game changer.   Sensor Fusion is proprietary to Lockheed Martin.   It's ten million lines of code.  Custom software.  Military Grade Encrypted.

That's actually the bulk of the price of the jet.  That's the thing that Lockheed Martin invented with F-22 Raptor.  Panther takes it next level.

It's the Virtual Wing Man which can see and process far more than any wing man ever could, and it does it lightning fast.

It can also learn, it's constantly adding to its database, like f*cking Skynet.

When they turn the jets on out at Nellis, just when they are warming them up on the parking ramp, Sensor Fusion is already reaching out for data.

Before they even taxi for take off, the jet is tracking all the aircraft in the airspace around Vegas, all the airliners, all the private planes, Skynet is always searching for targets.

[Dougie93]

The cool part is, this goes all the way back to Vietnam and the only really successful air campaign of that war.

It was called Commando Sabre.  It was an elite squadron which changed the way the Americans operated.

Instead of the higher command assigning the Commando Sabre squadron with targets, the elite pilots would go out and find the targets themselves.

They were so elite they could look down and see signs on the Ho Chi Minh Trail and launch attacks based on their skill, like Commandos.  Commando Sabre.

F-35 is the 21st century version of that, except with Sensor Fusion, it's exponentially more capable.

So you don't need a super elite pilot, a regular pilot can be Commando Sabre now.  Cyborg.  All Seeing Eye. Virtual Wing Man.

The jet is so easy to fly, a civilian could fly it, you could fly it, it practically flies itself.

The hard part of being a fighter pilot is making decisions,. fighter pilots are tacticians first, the jet allows them to focus just on that, it's intuitive, adaptive, autonomous.

Sensor Fusion receives data from the AWACS, that's automatically processed and displayed as part of the fusion of all available data.

The AWACS however doesn't tell the F-35 what it going on deep inside the threat zone,  the F-35 is telling the AWACS what is going on.

Commando Panther is sending and receiving, passing its Sensor Fused data back to the AWACS to be disseminated to everybody else.

What about the other guy's AWACS? 

That's where Stealth comes in, Sensor Fusion detects that radar, tells the pilot where he could be seen with it, then the pilot uses that information to not be seen by it.

So you can't sneak up on Commando Panther but he can sneak up on you.  Information Warfare FTW,

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

21 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The cool part is, this goes all the way back to Vietnam and the only really successful air campaign of that war.

 

 

The USAF developed "wild weasel" tactics to light up enemy AA defenses so radar homing missiles could destroy them.   Soviet made SAM batteries were smoked by teams of modified F-100 series fighters and later F-4 Phantoms;  U.S. Navy used A-4 Skyhawks.  Took a lot of balls to fly those missile baiting missions.

Fast forward to the early 1970's and Hughes developed track while scan fire control for the AN/AWG-9 radar on the F-14 Tomcat and Phoenix missile.   The system could track 24 bogies at a time while engaging six with missiles.  Ironically, only the Islamic Republic of Iran scored many air combat kills with the AIM-54 Phoenix against Iraq.

Also used during the Gulf War, there is still a wild weasel (SEAD defense suppression) role for USAF F-16 Block 50s.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The USAF developed "wild weasel" tactics to light up enemy AA defenses so radar homing missiles could destroy them.   Soviet made SAM batteries were smoked by teams of modified F-100 series fighters and later F-4 Phantoms;  U.S. Navy used A-4 Skyhawks.  Took a lot of balls to fly those missile baiting missions.

Fast forward to the early 1970's and Hughes developed track while scan fire control for the AN/AWG-9 radar on the F-14 Tomcat and Phoenix missile.   The system could track 24 bogies at a time while engaging six with missiles.  Ironically, only the Islamic Republic of Iran scored many air combat kills with the AIM-54 Phoenix against Iraq.

Also used during the Gulf War, there is still a wild weasel (SEAD defense suppression) role for USAF F-16 Block 50s.

Indeed.  Commando Sabre suffered 23% losses.    This is why the Congress is spending the money.  

It's not enough to win, Stealth and Sensor Fusion is about winning without losing the pilots.

5th Generation really means avoiding war of attrition.  Decisive force, with minimized losses.

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Can't do it when you're dead.   America pays the big bucks, to keep the flag draped coffins from coming home like they did from Vietnam.

Could it be done cheaper?  Not in terms of blood.

America F*ck Yeah.

[Dougie93]

Stealth and Sensor Fusion also minimizes fratricide and collateral damage,

The pilots can see what is going on, where everybody is, who is who in the zoo.

They are under vastly less duress, they have more Information, they have more time to consider it, they have the jet processing it for them to make it simple.

They can also use less ordinance, they don't have to flatten the place, they can find, fix and finish targets without needing to overkill.

[bush_cheney2004]

Right....F-35 reduces fighter pilot work load management significantly...for navigation, comms, IFF,  contact tracking, fire control, counter-measures, etc.    The all glass cockpit and helmet DAS turns the pilot into a flight and mission manager instead of an overworked knob and stick monkey.

 

 

 

 

[Dougie93]

Another thing I really love about Panther is that it is just a war machine.

It's not an airshow jet.   Any performance metric which wasn't required for real world operations, those were jettisoned, not worth paying more if it is not for war.

Lockheed Martin Chief Test Pilot for F-35 Jon Beesley.

USAF test pilot for the F-117 Nighthawk. Awarded a DFC for recovering one after the wing came off in flight.

The plane can be configured for whatever you want, it's performance is better than all the competition, when compared in real world combat conditions with payload.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

 

And understand who this guy is.   Billie Flynn is the original CF-18 pilot, the first one ever selected and trained for Hornet.

He's the most combat experienced CF-18 pilot, he led the CF-18's into Kosovo for NATO

Which is the biggest CF-18 operation of them all, since they didn't really do much in the Gulf War.

He was the test pilot for Typhoon as well before coming to Lockheed Martin.

He's literally Captain Canada.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

It's like the fake reform hacks have no clue about real world air combat.  The low information media is a loop. 

The low information media gets all its information from the low information media.

So the hacks will say F-35 top speed is "only" Mach 1.6 so F-35 is "slow"

Meanwhile, in combat configuration, F-15 cannot exceed Mach 1.6   F-16 and F/A-18 cannot exceed Mach 1.4

Fighters barely ever go supersonic in combat anyways, uses too much fuel, they operate transonic in combat, 0.8 to 1.2 Mach.

Those jets can also not pull their full g loads in combat, they are limited to about 7 g with weapons and fuel under the wings.

F-35 with all internal fuel and payload, is as fast as the F-15 in combat, and can pull the full 9 g turns which F-16 can only do at airshows with no weapons, min fuel.

Commando Panther is a war machine.  In combat configuration, real world, it well exceeds the performance of the jets it is replacing,

For those jets, airshow demonstration maneuvers are only for airshows. No weapons, not fueled up for combat.

With F-35, what you see is what you get in combat, this is not airshow, this is how the jet flies in war with weapons and fueled up.

Doesn't have to dogfight, but just in case, it's basically Raptor lite, as Jon Beesley said, it can do what the Raptor does for all intents purposes real world combat wise.

Raptor flies higher and faster for Air Superiority, but the difference in a dogfight down low and slow, is marginal at best between Raptor and Panther.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has already imposed performance envelope limits on the remaining CF-18 fleet to support extended service life programs.   This is a common practice for military hardware as it ages with no scheduled replacement or delayed overhaul.   

Accordingly, Canada has accepted lower performance and operational availability for the CF-18 going on many years, impacting pilot training, mission capability, and survivability.   Canada's CF-18's are now at the lowest operational relevance to NATO missions, and I suspect there is also an impact on NORAD missions.

Buying a replacement "jet" is not just about duplicating an already reduced capability on the cheap.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/equipment/archived-cf-18-hornet-estimated-life-expectancy.html

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada has already imposed performance envelope limits on the remaining CF-18 fleet to support extended service life programs.   This is a common practice for military hardware as it ages with no scheduled replacement or delayed overhaul.   

Accordingly, Canada has accepted lower performance and operational availability for the CF-18 going on many years, impacting pilot training, mission capability, and survivability.   Canada's CF-18's are now at the lowest operational relevance to NATO missions, and I suspect there is also an impact on NORAD missions.

Buying a replacement "jet" is not just about duplicating an already reduced capability on the cheap.

The whole CF is like this, except for CANSOFCOM.

The CF has basically collapsed already, for any warfighting purpose, it's a Boutique Military Token Force.

Things are getting so bad now though, that even the Boutique Military is crumbling into irrelevance even in terms of being a Token Force.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The whole CF is like this, except for CANSOFCOM.

The CF has basically collapsed already, for any warfighting purpose, it's a Boutique Military Token Force.

Things are getting so bad now though, that even the Boutique Military is crumbling into irrelevance even in terms of being a Token Force.

 

This mindset and resignation to less relevance will impact the decision....F-35 means returning to the front of the line instead of holding back with Band-Aided® CF-18s and a lesser aircraft as replacement.    It would be a shock to Ottawa/DND to go from lowest NATO relevance to the front of the spear.

F-35A may be too much for DND to handle.

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This mindset and resignation to less relevance will impact the decision....F-35 means returning to the front of the line instead of holding back with Band-Aided® CF-18s and a lesser aircraft as replacement.    It would be a shock to Ottawa/DND to go from lowest NATO relevance to the front of the spear.

F-35A may be too much for DND to handle.

That's basically the reality of decades of Disarmament by Stealth inciting total collapse. Systemic collapse.  Irreversible collapse.

It has collapsed beyond its capacity to even repair itself, it's past the point of no return, it's collapsing into an armed constabulary by default.

That's why this is a waste of money, those who want to spend anything on DND are simply naive and delusional as to how much you can break a military before it is broken beyond repair.

You can't order institutions up off the rack, they are living things, once you have killed it, it's dead.

What you see now is just a zombie legacy project animated  only by pointless boondoggle dog and pony shows.

The chicken have come home to roost, the CF cannot even reconstitute itself.

Throwing money at it won't work, it can't even spend it, because it has no capacity to spend it on, it's just a shell, there's no logistics tail at all now.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

...That's why this is a waste of money, those who want to spend anything on DND are simply naive and delusional as to how much you can break a military before it is broken beyond repair.

 

I think you are right about that...this is just an exercise in pretending by a middle power that hasn't existed in decades.

It would be like me buying my wife a Corvette ZR1 after she has been driving Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla for years.

What the hell is Canada going to do with a brand new stealth strike fighter ?

Israel knows what to do with one !

Edited September 3, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

What the hell is Canada going to do with a brand new stealth strike fighter ?

Nothing.  Same thing they're doing with the CF-18's

All the GoC even cares about are the IRBs   A handful of Canadian contractors in the districts. 

The Canadian MICC exists to dine out on the Pentagon, the CF is just a dog and pony sideshow.

The GoC itself is a boondoggle, all the relevant services are delivered by the provinces, Canada itself is just one big Self Licking Ice Cream Cone.

The purpose of the Federal Government is to perpetuate the Federal Government and nothing else.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

....The GoC itself is a boondoggle, all the relevant services are delivered by the provinces, Canada itself is just one big Self Licking Ice Cream Cone.

 

In the end, all the buggers really care about are the jobs (and votes), not the "mission requirements" for NATO or NORAD.

 

 

 

[Dougie93]

Again, New Zealand doesn't bother with all this crap.  New Zealand jettisoned all these vanity projects like fighter planes and submarines and destroyers.

New Zealand's military is actually tailored to New Zealand's needs

It's smaller,  but it's in much better shape.  They do what they need to do, and they stopped doing things they don't need to do.

So it's not broken by trying to be something it's not, which is at the core of all the dysfunction at DND

Champagne Tastes, Beer Budget.  DND thinks its should be the Mini-Pentagon, Canadians just ain't gonna pay for it.

DND wants to be the other Australia, but really Canada is a Giant New Zealand.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93