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Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?


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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

They don't have to tell the public anything they don't want the public to know.

 

...and they also tell the public nonsense that they want them to believe....like "peacekeeping", and "responsibility to protect", and "honest broker"....all while they buy American JDAM laser guidance kits to go on their American GBU bombs.    Now they want to add gender equality and virtue signaling to the mix.

They could actually pick a new "jet" and obfuscate/delay so long it won't really matter in the short term.

Then Canada would just have another chapter in a long book of military procurement fiascos.

It's the Canadian way.

 

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Always keep in mind that all these NATO STANAG strategic weapons are nuclear weapons.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Panther is a nuclear weapon.

Lockheed Martin Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System is a nuclear weapon.

At 15 minutes notice to launch on warning hair trigger alert; we are always fighting a nuclear war.  

The Balance of Terror is a war, Cold War is war, it's simply what is called a Frozen Conflict.

The primary role of both JSF and BMD is to fight and win a theater thermonuclear war, counterforce option.

That's what they are for, everything else is just secondary roles at the tactical level.

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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

That's what they are for, everything else is just secondary roles at the tactical level.

 

Which is why Canada will have no part in it, at least politically.   Love the jobs and revenue from enriched & depleted uranium, but never own up to it.

That's the game that all Canadian governments must play, regardless of ruling party.

Look...there goes another train from General Dynamics (London) with armoured ice cream trucks for Saudi Arabia !

 

 

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Which is why Canada will have no part in it, at least politically.   Love the jobs and revenue from enriched & depleted uranium, but never own up to it.

That's the game that all Canadian governments must play, regardless of ruling party.

Look...there goes another train from General Dynamics (London) with armoured ice cream trucks for Saudi Arabia !

Like I say, my bet is that they will not defy Washington and will buy both JSF and BMD through the F-35 and T26 programs, they just won't mention the scary bits to Canadians.

We've been here before, this is what they do, but when the contracts are this far along, they don't pull out, they pick something else to throw over bpard.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

They are no closer to getting new naval combatants than "jets" until the pot for jobs and votes is sweetened for Ontario and Quebec.

It's a de facto one party state, the Elite Consensus and associated bureaucracy run it, the Libs will buy F-35, the Cons will buy F-35, even the NDP would buy F-35 for the unions.

They could just keep punting like with Sea King, but the F-35 or F-16 will be the only thing in production for them, very soon.

They're coming home to Lockheed Martin at some point, it's just a matter of time.

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22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

See that's the thing, even replacement of a 50+ year old rotary winged aircraft like the CH-124 Sea King had more drama and cost a lot more in penalties than a Kim Kardashian reality TV show.  

The Lockheed Martin Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone is more expensive than an F-35.

They ordered a custom helicopter and they only ordered 28 of them, so Chretien wouldn't be embarrassed by DND selecting AW101 again.

Even though even Chretien turned around and ordered AW101 anyways, just not to replace Sea King, he used the "Search & Rescue" Humanitarian pixie dust to slip that one by.

Now they have two platforms with two supply chains, and both are orphaned fleets.

Worst run defense department in the world, bar none.

Not saying AW101 is a bad platform mind you, Lockheed Martin could convert those into Combat Search & Rescue configuration to be used by CANSOFCOM as well.

We could add the in flight refueling to CH-149B and CC-130J for long range Direct Action Penetration role, truly the big leagues of SOF alongside AFSOC and JSOC

Knighthawk and Chinook in Petawawa.  427 SOAS

Commando Cormorant and Super Hercules Harvest Hawk in Trenton. 428 Special Tactics Sqn.

 

Edited by Dougie93
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Basically what the CH-148 Cyclone was, was Canada designing and building its own helicopter, which is what the Nabobs at DND are want to do for everything.

DND is one of the biggest saboteurs themselves, with their ridiculous Canada only requirements, again, Champagne Tastes on a Beer Budget.

That's not to say they didn't get a great helicopter, but to make it worthwhile, you need to order dozens of them and use the same platform for as many different roles as possible.

Canada is actually part owner of the design, so if any of them sell around the world, Canada gets a cut, but most countries are not like Canada, most countries order off the shelf to save money and gain economies of scale.

Cyclone is at the moment the most advanced Multirole Maritime Helicopter in the world, but with only 28 of them they are not economical.

 

Edited by Dougie93
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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well the scope for secrecy is narrow.  The Freedom of Information Act is being applied more often, but national security can still be invoked and is.

Well, one thing the government is apparently not telling anybody is that the price of Advanced Super Hornet is going up, because there's only 500 Super Hornets in the world.

Meanwhile the price of Lightning II Panther is falling, below $89 million per unit price on lot 13 just completed.

With production set to soar in 2020, overseas customers are ramping up their orders, the price for lot 14 coming up is $80 million, already cheaper than Advanced Super Hornet.

Even with slowed American buys, the jet is selling like hotcakes around the world, and there are three production lines, one in Fort Worth, one in Italy, and another in Japan.

This is a big program, Canada is a privileged partner already, this is where the money is for Canada.

As a partner, Canada already bought F-35 and Canada is selling F-35 to the rest of the world.

Do you really think the Liberals are going to blow this up?

Mo Panther porn.

 

 

 

Edited by Dougie93
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It’s well worth it.  Commit to at least one large squadron’s worth of F-35’s to start with and supplement from there.   Super Hornets or F-16’s can do most of the NORAD stuff. I like F-35 because if wars are now won from the sky, F-35 seems like the paramount asset.  I think for Canada the key is to have one or two pieces of top grade second to none gear for infantry, air force and navy.  Pick a few niche items to produce and sell, and a few key pieces to procure.  I think F-35 fits the bill for air procurement, and that’s where war is going, tech aircraft and drones.  One well-trained soldier with all the communications gear and tech has the power of a small third class army, so it isn’t so much a numbers game any more of who has the biggest armies.  We also need decent patrol capacity in the water and ice breakers.  We’re getting some of that but need to go further.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s well worth it.  Commit to at least one large squadron’s worth of F-35’s to start with and supplement from there.   Super Hornets or F-16’s can do most of the NORAD stuff. I like F-35 because if wars are now won from the sky, F-35 seems like the paramount asset.  I think for Canada the key is to have one or two pieces of top grade second to none gear for infantry, air force and navy.  Pick a few niche items to produce and sell, and a few key pieces to procure.  I think F-35 fits the bill for air procurement, and that’s where war is going, tech aircraft and drones.  One well-trained soldier with all the communications gear and tech has the power of a small third class army, so it isn’t so much a numbers game any more of who has the biggest armies.  We also need decent patrol capacity in the water and ice breakers.  We’re getting some of that but need to go further.  

Yes, yes, the laundry list.  Heard it for almost half a century now, same old same old.

A mixed fleet of Super Hornet & Lightning II Panther is beyond the means of DND, they don't have the logistics tail nor money to support a mixed fleet.

Moreover, Super Hornet is not cheaper, and Lightning II Panther can do both the NATO and NORAD mission, so there's no need for a mixed fleet.

Having one piece of top grade per service is the dictionary definition of what a Boutique Military means, a few toys in the showroom, nothing in the warehouse behind that.

Plenty of stuff is sold from Canada, but it's sold to the Americans mostly, Saudi Arabia being Canada's next best customer.

Unmanned systems are expensive, so drones is something the military wants, but the government is loath to pay for, since "drones" are also way overrated in the media.

None the less, there are assets in the Boutique Military which the Government of Canada could leverage to provide political cover for Washington.

That's basically Canada's primary role.  

Fly the Liberal Party of Canada Flag for Washington as political cover for military adventures under the auspices of the humanitarian rubric.

Washington however is most interested in counterterrorism at the moment, so the tip of the spear is Special Operations.

CANSOF is the asset of most leverage to the Government at this time, that is the soldiers who can have strategic and political effects.

Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2) Tier One Special Missions Unit (SMU) at Dyer Hill Training Center (DHTC) Facta Non Verba

The Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) Tier Two Special Forces Unit (SFU) at Camp Petawawa. Audeamus

These are the two best assets at the disposal of the GoC in terms of political leverage, which is all the GoC cares about in terms of national security.

JTF2 is Canada's JSOC.  National Mission Force.   CSOR is Canada's Rangers & Green Berets.  Military Assistance Force.

They're not as good as the Americans, the American SOF budget for training is not something Canada can afford, Canada doesn't have the mass neither.

But they are in the same league, they are as close to the Americans as Canada can get, they can operate with the Americans at the highest levels of SOF

In terms of aviation then, the most important asset is 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron in support of CANSOF

Which is rather poorly equipped with only the aging CH-146, although the pilot's can make it work in a pinch, they would be much more relevant with better helicopters.

 

Edited by Dougie93
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In terms of patrol, the Lockheed Martin CP-140M Aurora is actually fine.

Built on the Lockheed Martin P-3C Orion airframe, you can pretty much fly them forever, it's like the USAF with B-52, you can just keep refurbishing that 1950's heavy duty tech.

They've replaced the wings and put all new sensors on it, so that's one part of the Boutique Military which is not requiring emergency replacement.

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So you’re saying get into helicopters, perhaps those Sikorskys to support spec ops, maintain many of the patrol craft we already have, and look to the F-:35 exclusively to replace the Hornets (or a step down from F-35 to F-16).  

I like the F-35 and don’t understand the fixation on Hornets, even the upgraded version.  I can only think it relates to existing training, parts and maintenance capacity.  That would be the only reason I could see for starting with say, 20 F35’s and supplementing over time as the old Hornet platform becomes obsolete and unsupported.  

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So you’re saying get into helicopters, perhaps those Sikorskys to support spec ops, maintain many of the patrol craft we already have, and look to the F-:35 exclusively to replace the Hornets (or a step down from F-35 to F-16).  

I like the F-35 and don’t understand the fixation on Hornets, even the upgraded version.  I can only think it relates to existing training, parts and maintenance capacity.  That would be the only reason I could see for starting with say, 20 F35’s and supplementing over time as the old Hornet platform becomes obsolete and unsupported.  

I'm saying CANSOFCOM is your best asset, gives you the most bang for your buck, is the most flexible, deployable and relevant asset, giving them an Air Group is more of a force multiplier than replacing the CF-18's

You could start with a smaller number of F-35's to supplement the existing CF-18's, phasing the new in as you phase the old out, but long term a mixed fleet would be too expensive for the CF and they wouldn't be able to support it, because it would require two completely separate training programs and logistics tails.

Remember; amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics, all war is logistics in the end.

It's not about what DND could theoretically buy, theoretically they could buy an aircraft carrier or the space shuttle, the issue is really what can they support  in the field, what could they run with the infrastructure they have and are likely to have in the future, which is very restricted.

Edited by Dougie93
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17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm saying CANSOFCOM is your best asset, gives you the most bang for your buck, is the most flexible, deployable and relevant asset, giving them an Air Group is more of a force multiplier than replacing the CF-18's

You could start with a smaller number of F-35's to supplement the existing CF-18's, phasing the new in as you phase the old out, but long term a mixed fleet would be too expensive for the CF and they wouldn't be able to support it, because it would require two completely separate training programs and logistics tails.

Remember; amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics, all war is logistics in the end.

Sensible.

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18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sensible.

Well, not completely, because CANSOFCOM is stripping your best troops out of your army to keep it staffed.

Canada doesn't have the logistics anymore to keep both at the sharp end, but that's a done deal already.

The Government favors CANSOFCOM because the Government can impose the veil of secrecy over it, hiding it from accountability.

So it is dangerous that way, but it is what it is, and its the most useful tool in the toolbox in the contemporary asymmetrical warfare operational environment

CANSOF are also Information Warriors, they deny information to adversaries while gathering it for you on the ground, in high threat areas with discretion, and through Military Assistance they train others and so act as force multipliers.

Edited by Dougie93
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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well, not completely, because CANSOFCOM is stripping your best troops out of your army to keep it staffed.

Canada doesn't have the logistics anymore to keep both at the sharp end, but that's a done deal already.

The Government favors CANSOFCOM because the Government can impose the veil of secrecy over it, hiding it from accountability.

So it is dangerous that way, but it is what it is, and its the most useful tool in the toolbox in the contemporary asymmetrical warfare operational environment

Well we need both CANSOFCOM and a strong middle power army.  The question is how to make that happen politically.

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well we need both CANSOFCOM and a strong middle power army.  The question is how to make that happen politically.

The Middle Power army is not realistic anymore, Canadians are not willing to fund the Middle Power standing army.

The Middle Power army has to be able to fight on the front lines with the Hegemon, that's what makes it Middle Power, Superpower like capabilities on a smaller scale.

That means full spectrum army, and Canada hasn't had one of those since the 1980's, the Liberals dismantled the full spectrum army in the 1990s

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10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Harder to fund that kind of military on our own.  It needs federal funding. 

In Canada the opposite is true, the federal government is a burden not a boon, the federal government destroyed Canada's military.

Even though it spent vast sums of money on it.   Flushed down the drain.

The result is that Ontario is not well defended in any practical sense, in the wake of the failed state of Confederation, it falls to us to defend our hearths and homes.

It's not going to be a full spectrum military, but it doesn't need to be, we are more practically defended by armed constabulary and militia.

Less is more. Less boondoggles more boots on the ground.

Edited by Dougie93
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