Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[bush_cheney2004]

But Canada still pretends to be a full Two-Eyes partner, sending Airbus (Typhoon) and Dassault (Rafale) packing.

There is no way that any military capital procurement in Canada would survive several changes in government anyway.

Chretien taught Canada it was cheaper to just pay the cancellation fees, like a bad cell phone contract.

[Dougie93]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

In the end, all the buggers really care about are the jobs (and votes), not the "mission requirements" for NATO or NORAD.

This is all the fault of people like Zeitgeist.  The Eskimo Communists.  Delusions of Grandeur. Trying to make Canada into something it's not.

It's a Potemkin Village in the classically Soviet sense.  It's just a facade, there's no there there, it's all myth making and fake news.

Vimy Ridge.  Peacekeeping. Middle Power.  It's all bullshit.  Just wasting hundreds of billions of dollars on a CBC state propaganda arm fairy tale.

And it's all rotting out from the inside like the Soviets too, the collapse of the CF is like the collapse of the Warsaw Pact in miniature.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

The CF is Humpty Dumpty.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put Humpty together again, even if some of those horses are F-35's. 

Zeitgeist just refuses to read the memo and thinks that if there are just more king's horses and more king's men, Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The CF is Humpty Dumpty. All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put Humpty together again, even if some of those horses are F-35's, Zeitgeist just refuses to read the memo.

It's just like the Soviets.  I mean, exactly like the Soviets.

  Big push in Afghanistan, suprise surprise, it's a quagmire

Then it just crumbles, rust out, the morale collapses, the equipment has turned to junk, nobody even cares anymore, they're just going through the motions.

 Commissars going around making sure Mark Norman is in the closed city of Gorky, so he can't tell the people what the KGCBC is up to.

The Iron Curtain of the Eskimo Communists is coming down by default; under the weight of its own Potemkin Village and associated state propaganda.

Canada literally needs Glasnost and Perestroika, the Politburo however just keeps on trying to get the bread lines going again.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It's just like the Soviets.  I mean, exactly like the Soviets.

  Big push in Afghanistan, suprise surprise, it's a quagmire

Then it just crumbles, rust out, the morale collapses, the equipment has turned to junk, nobody even cares anymore, they're just going through the motions.

 Commissars going around making sure Mark Norman is in the closed city of Gorky, so he can't tell the people what the KGCBC is up to.

The Iron Curtain of the Eskimo Communists is coming down by default; under the weight of its own Potemkin Village and associated state propaganda.

Canada literally needs Glasnost and Perestroika, the Politburo however just keeps on trying to get the bread lines going again.

Afghanistan for the Soviets is like Vietnam for the US.  Women in Afghanistan actually faired well under the Soviets, but the Yanks had to arm the Mujahideen, seeds of the Taliban.  Anyway, it’s arguable that was collateral damage in the Cold War.  Fine.  

On the Canadian front, I would hardly call the sacrifices of past generations to defend freedom fake narratives.  You may not like to hear it, but the grandeur has been there in the past in hard power.  Canada probably leans too heavily on its soft power now, though it’s probably served the country and allies fairly  well.  

Procurements depend on political will.  Canada has the brains and brawn to be a military force to be reckoned with.   It also has the money to buy what tech it doesn’t produce.  The issue is convincing the public of the value of diverting more of the public purse to military spending.  People need to see good reasons.  Relying on the US is the easy way out and makes it harder for Canada to assert foreign policy and other Canadian objectives.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Afghanistan for the Soviets is like Vietnam for the US.  Women in Afghanistan actually faired well under the Soviets, but the Yanks had to arm the Mujahideen, seeds of the Taliban.  Anyway, it’s arguable that was collateral damage in the Cold War.  Fine.  

On the Canadian front, I would hardly call the sacrifices of past generations to defend freedom fake narratives.  You may not like to hear it, but the grandeur has been there in the past in hard power.  Canada probably leans too heavily on its soft power now, though it’s probably served the country and allies fairly  well.  

Procurements depend on political will.  Canada has the brains and brawn to be a military force to be reckoned with.   It also has the money to buy what tech it doesn’t produce.  The issue is convincing the public of the value of diverting more of the public purse to military spending.  People need to see good reasons.  Relying on the US is the easy way out and makes it harder for Canada to assert foreign policy and other Canadian objectives.  

The people aren't going to see reason, so it's never going to happen. You can give them reasons until you are blue in the face, they will simply double down on the derp. The CF is Humpty Dumpty, denial and stubbornness on your end will not change reality or the Canadian electorates warped perception of it. You may want to pay to restore Canadian hard power, but Canadians will not approve.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

On the Canadian front, I would hardly call the sacrifices of past generations to defend freedom fake narratives.  You may not like to hear it, but the grandeur has been there in the past in hard power. 

I sacrificed, I dedicated my life to the grandeur of that hard power. 

Canada is bullshit, Canadians are full of shit, that's what I learned.

I got lucky, I didn't get my legs blown off,  a track didn't run over me.

I don't thank Canada for that, there only but by the grace of God go I.

I took the oath in good faith, I was a true believer, but I was laughably naive, just a boy.

The fake narratives have a purpose, they are intended to get you to rally around the government.

That's why the government makes this shit up.  If somebody wants to believe in this shit, that's up them.

I simply don't anymore, and I have no emotional connection to it anymore neither, so I feel no more need to sugar coat it.

Would my great-grandfather who fought from Ypres to Mons be upset with me? 

I don't think so, he wasn't that big on Canada, Canada is not why he fought, he was an Ulster man, he was very British, he fought for the Empire.

He was on Vimy Ridge, and quite sure the fake narrative of it,  which he never knew, because it was made up after the fact, would make him chuckle.

I don't think he would be mad about it, but he would say it was "bollocks" I'm sure.

As to how Canada is now?  He would despise it,  with a passion, quite sure he would say "it has fallen to the Bolsheviks"

These people you invoke, they are not two dimensional cut outs to me, these are my people, I know them well.

Bear in mind that your fake country Potemkin Village didn't come about until the mid 1960's, it wasn't even fully entrenched when I was growing up.

The troops who fought in the World Wars,  never fought under the Liberal Party of Canada Flag, nor ever sang the :Liberal Party of Canada Song,

The people you invoke are British, who the Liberals have erased from Canada now,  very deliberately in fact, that's the essence of the Post National State.

The Canadian military was British, that's why the Liberals destroyed it too, replacing it with a fake military for the fake country they were making,

Disarmament by Stealth is not an accident nor a mistake, it's very deliberate, it's all part of the Liberals doctrine.

You really  think my great grandfather from Vimy Ridge would stand with you, and call me a traitor, for being a counterrevolutionary Loyalist? 

Why?  That's exactly who he was too, why would he ever stand with you against me and Liz Windsor?

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

45 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I sacrificed, I dedicated my life to the grandeur of that hard power. 

Canada is bullshit, Canadians are full of shit, that's what I learned.

I got lucky, I didn't get my legs blown off,  a track didn't run over me.

I don't thank Canada for that, there only but by the grace of God go I.

I took the oath in good faith, I was a true believer, but I was laughably naive, just a boy.

The fake narratives have a purpose, they are intended to get you to rally around the government.

That's why the government makes this shit up.  If somebody wants to believe in this shit, that's up them.

I simply don't anymore, and I have no emotional connection to it anymore neither, so I feel no more need to sugar coat it.

Would my great-grandfather who fought from Ypres to Mons be upset with me? 

I don't think so, he wasn't that big on Canada, Canada is not why he fought, he was an Ulster man, he was very British, he fought for the Empire.

He was on Vimy Ridge, and quite sure the fake narrative of it,  which he never knew, because it was made up after the fact, would make him chuckle.

I don't think he would be mad about it, but he would say it was "bollocks" I'm sure.

As to how Canada is now?  He would despise it,  with a passion, quite sure he would say "it has fallen to the Bolsheviks"

These people you invoke, they are not two dimensional cut outs to me, these are my people, I know them well.

Okay here’s the problem.  Confederation is simply a federal arrangement.  If the Yanks blustered in here with military might to “get serious” about Canada, they would still see the same complex democracy of French, English and Indigenous spread out across a massive country.  The range of cultures and regional differences makes the very fact that we can string this scattered population together into a federation amazing.  You can’t “fix” it because the people are charting their course this way.  It’s frustrating at times because you see solutions that seem like obvious policy choices that it’s hard to form a concensus around.  I really see this with pipelines.  The military has a similar contrast of detractors and supporters.  I think basically you have to argue your case for policy powerfully.  It’s about advocacy.  

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Okay here’s the problem.  Confederation is simply a federal arrangement.  If the Yanks blustered in here with military might to “get serious” about Canada, they would still see the same complex democracy of French, English and Indigenous spread out across a massive country.  The range of cultures and regional differences makes the very fact that we can string this scattered population together into a federation amazing.  You can’t “fix” it because the people are charting their course this way.  It’s frustrating at times because you see solutions that seem like obvious policy choices that it’s hard to form a concensus around.  I really see this with pipelines.  The military has a similar contrast of detractors and supporters.  I think basically you have to argue your case for policy powerfully.  It’s about advocacy.  

I'm not trying to fix anything, a pox on all reformers I say, I don't say it is not Canadians prerogative to be who they want to be,  and I'm not trying to stop them.

My great grandfather from Vimy Ridge was an Imperialist and virulently racist White Supremacist, so he would be trying to stop them.

My grandfather who fought in the Second World War however, left Canada to become an American to raise my father in America, so they are the ones who influence me more.

And they were both republicans, democratic and libertarian, lovers of American freedom, which means you don't tell people what to do, unless and until they are an imminent threat to you, Brandenburg v. Ohio.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not trying to fix anything, a pox on all reformers I say, I don't say it is not Canadians prerogative to be who they want to be,  and I'm not trying to stop them.

My great grandfather from Vimy Ridge was an Imperialist and virulently racist White Supremacist, so he would be trying to stop them.

My grandfather who fought in the Second World War however, left Canada to become an American to raise my father in America, so they are the ones who influence me more.

And they were both republicans, democratic and libertarian, lovers of American freedom, which means you don't tell people what to do, unless and until they are an imminent threat to you, Brandenburg v. Ohio.

Okay but Canada has its own libertarianism and laid back aspects.  Think of pot and peaceniks.  It also had the FLQ and martial law to fight it.   It’s all peace love and Hare Krishna until someone insults your mother then the gloves come off.  I do think Canadian politics are too left right now and I think it’s primarily because the Liberals needed to go left of the NDP in the last election to move from third place to first.   Also, Trudeau appeals to Millennials and in some ways speaks a different political language from past generations.  He leans on image and family history and is naive to the dangers of the forces on the extreme left and how they can cause ultra-right reactions.  

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Okay but Canada has its own libertarianism and laid back aspects.  Think of pot and peaceniks.  It also had the FLQ and martial law to fight it.   It’s all peace love and Hare Krishna until someone insults your mother then the gloves come off.  I do think Canadian politics are too left right now and I think it’s primarily because the Liberals needed to go left of the NDP in the last election to move from third place to first.   Also, Trudeau appeals to Millennials and in some ways speaks a different political language from past generations.  He leans on image and family history and is naive to the dangers of the forces on the extreme left and how they can cause ultra-right reactions.  

Again, I'm not trying to stop anybody from being who they want to be, I would kill and die to defend their right to that.

I'm an agnostic servant of the Crown in the classic British Westminster tradition, I have no partisan loyalty but to the Queen.

None the less, I am not bound to anymore fealty to that in Canada, as contrary to Canadian sentiment, Canada is not a republic, but rather the British Crown still/

[Dougie93]

Which brings us back the Lockheed Martin CF-35A Lightning II Panther.  

Or you can pick your own nickname for it, could be the Lightning II Cougar for the Canadian configuration, the Israelis call theirs the Lightning II Adir which means "Mighty One"

I am simply correcting misinformation and providing you with the Information as to how the system of systems actually works.

If you want to buy it, we say; thank you, come again.   If you don't want to buy it, Lockheed Martin has many other products which may be more suitable to your needs.

For example we have armed configurations for the Super Hercules now, you already have them in service.

We could arm and equip those for ISR and to bomb insurgents for you, or we could equip them for maritime patrol, quite easily, and very affordably.

Neither the A-10 not the F-35 are the supreme close air support platforms, the most effective CAS platform  of all is the AC-130J Ghostrider gunship

We can however palletize that for you now, roll on roll off kits,  which allow you to configure and reconfigure your Super Hercules fleet in a matter of only hours.

For the kind of low intensity conflict which Canada is geared for, loitering armed ISR rugged and deployable into remote areas, is probably more use to you than F-35.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

As another alternative to the CF-35A, we could offer Canada the Lockheed Martin Sikorsky  MH-60 Knighthawk.

Perfect for Canada because it is a utility helicopter to replace the CH-146, except if you get your troops into a jam, it can bring more firepower than an AH-64 Apache if need be.

Colombia for example only has one squadron of aging Mirage Kfirs for air defence, for offensive operations low intensity war, the Colombians use armed helicopters primarily.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Don't forget that the only jewel in your military crown now is CANSOFCOM

Might as well just go all the way, why divert money to the sad and failing CF?

427 Lion Special Operations Aviation Squadron (427 SOAS) at Petawawa with MH-60 Multirole Combat Helicopter.   Ferte Manus Certas.

428 Ghost Special Tactics Squadron (428 STS) at Trenton, with MC-130J Armed ISR.   Usque Ad Finem.

Canadian Special Operations Forces Command Air Group.   Viam Inveniemus

At Lockheed Martin, we never forget who we are working for.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Now Saab isn't sure it wants to participate in Canada's replacement "jet" procurement circle jerk...also because of TWO-EYES network security requirements:

 

Quote

OTTAWA -- Days after Airbus Defence and Space pulled out of the $19-billion race to replace Canada's aging fighter jets, the only European firm still eligible to compete says it has not decided whether it will.

Saab Canada president Simon Carroll says the Swedish firm is interested in entering its Gripen jet against its two remaining competitors, both of which are from the U.S.: Boeing's Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-35.

However, Carroll told The Canadian Press on Tuesday that his company is still analyzing the competition's nitty-gritty details -- including a security requirement that forced out two other European jet-makers.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/sweden-s-saab-undecided-on-whether-to-bid-on-canada-s-fighter-jet-contract-1.4576026

 

 

[Dougie93]

Saab just enters the Gripen in every competition, they are desperate, they are known for bribery as well.

Saab makes nice product, I don't trash the Gripen, but it's not right for Canada and they aren't going to buy it.

If Canada wanted out of Two Eyes, then Typhoon would be the way to go.

That being said, all Typhoon really is, is an F-16 on steroids, Canada could acheive the same effects with F-16 Super Viper at a fraction of the cost.

Typhoon does what F-16 does A2A slightly better than F-16, but F-16 does strike much better than Typhoon, and a new F-16 Super Viper is half the price of Typhoon.

Canada could buy a minimum requirement of F-16 Super Viper, say 36 of those.

Then Canada could spread the rest of the money around to acheive greater and complimentary effects;

By acquiring MH-60M for 427 SOAS.   By converting some CC-130J for Armed ISR.

CANSOFCOM is the arm of decision now, 1 Canadian Air Division is in a supporting role.

F-16 Super Viper can fulfill all the roles of the CF-18, brand new Vipers rolling off the line now, fully supported for decades to come.

CANSOFCOM is the strategic enabler for the Government of Canada, it's the tip of the spear, with an Air Group they are in the big leagues of SOF

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Vegas sports book odds are in....since Canada has a fetish for two engines in this game, looks like it will be the Boeing F-18 E/F Super Hornet Block III, with lots of the usual Canadian modifications to drive the price way up.   Like LockMart, Canada is already a big Boeing customer.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Vegas sports book odds are in....since Canada has a fetish for two engines in this game, looks like it will be the Boeing F-18 E/F Super Hornet Block III, with lots of the usual Canadian modifications to drive the price way up.   Like LockMart, Canada is already a big Boeing customer.

I bet it will be Lockheed Martin CF-35A Panther.

The Canadian contractors are already in the global supply chain, the Government does not really intend to pay the penalty of pulling out of the JSF program.

All this stalling is just punting.  The Liberals were in thrid place behind the NDP, they were saying anything no matter how stupid, to win the election; Sunny Ways

In the end it will end up where it started, the Liberals are just playing games, same as Trump, when he attacked the F-35 to pander to the tin foil hat lolbergs.

[bush_cheney2004]

The problem is that the anti-Harper, "never F-35" propaganda has worked too well, because the F-35 has come to represent aggressive "war monger" policy and poodle to NATO/America.    Will be very hard to walk that back now.

F-35 Tier 3 partner jobs are worth far more than anything Boeing can offer in offsets, but rational thought left the building long ago.

If the Trudeau government falls, then the F-35 has a chance.

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

The problem is that the anti-Harper, "never F-35" propaganda has worked too well, because the F-35 has come to represent aggressive "war monger" policy and poodle to NATO/America.    Will be very hard to walk that back now.

F-35 Tier 3 partner jobs are worth far more than anything Boeing can offer in offsets, but rational thought left the building long ago.

If the Trudeau government falls, then the F-35 has a chance.

It's the Liberals, they can walk back anything, and they usually do, the contracts is all the Liberals care about, they have done the math, they are just stalling.

Fake competition.   That's why other contractors are pulling out.  Nobody really believes the Liberals are going for the nuclear option.

The Liberals know the penalty for pulling out is much more than the jobs even, Washington will punish them in other ways and they are aware.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Liberals only need to play this game until the election is over...then they can do as they please if they win.  

They did the same thing on missile defense.

Or they will keep kicking this can down the road.

[Dougie93]

Like I didn't believe this promise, this was one of the obviously false promises they were making to hook in the rubes.

I voted for them to legalize mary jane, cause I at least knew they would do that.

They were mostly lying, but that was one thing they could do easily, and so would do,  to make up for other things they didn't do.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The Liberals only need to play this game until the election is over...then they can do as they please if they win.  

They did the same thing on missile defense.

Or they will keep kicking this can down the road.

Lockheed Martin Type 26 Global Combat Ship - Canadian Surface Combatant comes BMD Ready.

Mk.41 VLS

Raytheon AN/SPY-6 Air & Missile Defense Radar phased array.

Raytheon RIM-174 Standard Missile 6 Terminal Intercept capable.

Raytheon RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 dedicated Exo-Atmospheric Mid Course Intercept.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Lockheed Martin Type 26 Global Combat Ship - Canadian Surface Combatant comes BMD Ready.

 

But it is a political no-no to call out any such BMD capability.

Militarily, Canada is a U.S. protectorate.

 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

But it is a political no-no to call out any such BMD capability.

Militarily, Canada is a U.S. protectorate.

Tru enough, never the less, it's stil not a republic, they have the authority of the Queen.

There is no first amendment

There is an official secrets act.

They don't have to tell the public anything they don't want the public to know.