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Islamophobia in Canada


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12 hours ago, eyeball said:

What leads you to believe DOP has any issue with dictators?

 

No More Stalins. No More Hitlers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXurmD0XtLM

I believe that the above is true. 

Edited by DogOnPorch
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This topic is just another loop of endless discuss and only stupid peoole discuss. People discuss because at least one side rejects to recognize information and logic. 

@jacee

Says that people who dont like Islam cannot make anti-Islamic therefore anti-Muslim comments. They legally not allowed to do that. Then in this point we need to look at Canadian govt. Do they apply Canadian laws ? No people are freely acting hateful. So Canadian "democracy" fails.

If Islam is something bad and this is why Canadian govt is not applying Canada laws, then why Islam is legally allowed in Canada ? Canadian democracy fails again. 

 

So this is an unknown-primitive situation for Canada and its people. This is a shame.

The same situation goes for many countries including my country.

Edited by Altai
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37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It would be framed as a moral issue.

If you don't support Islam's "special status" and exclusive blasphemy laws, then you are an Islamophobe, or a racist, or a communist, or a facsist, or a .......whatever.

Most people don't like being called those names, as their views really aren't that extreme and don't really fall into those parameters.

So they will go along with something their gut tells them is a wrong idea....to avoid those extreme labels, which when thrown around as they are right now, essentially stop moderate Muslims, ex-Muslims and Muslim supporters from expressing themselves.

I agree that perhaps there are people who would fail to stand up for what they believe, but would it really be that many?  And given the anti-Muslim sentiment already present in Canada, wouldn't that work to give people the courage to stand against what they believe is wrong, even if it is framed as a moral issue?   

I think people have to be worked up to get discriminatory laws passed.   The head tax against the Chinese didn't come about after sober reflection; it came about as the end result of a campaign against Chinese immigrants.   Same with the legislation to inter Japanese in the second world war - the populace wasn't 'tricked' into doing something they disapproved of because it was framed as a moral issue, they were led, through propaganda, to feel threatened by the Japanese and so when the government enacted discriminatory legislation, it was essentially accepted.

I think a more likely (though not very, at least in Canada) scenario is that laws are passed that will restrict the freedom of Muslims.   That has historically been the end result when a group has been targeted in similar ways to how Muslims are being targeted today.   Japanese in Canada and in the States, Jews in Germany - they were all accused of 'threatening' the culture of their country, of having an agenda to 'take over' to the detriment of the rest of the citizens, of being a threat to women and children.     

 

 

Quote

The term "Yellow Peril" refers to the skin color of East Asians, the fear that the mass immigration of Asians threatened white wages and standards of living, and the fear that they would eventually take over and destroy western civilization, replacing it with their ways of life and values

 

Quote

Nazi propagandists portrayed Jews as an “alien race” that fed off the host nation, poisoned its culture, seized its economy, and enslaved its workers and farmers.

 

 

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

I agree that perhaps there are people who would fail to stand up for what they believe, but would it really be that many?  And given the anti-Muslim sentiment already present in Canada, wouldn't that work to give people the courage to stand against what they believe is wrong, even if it is framed as a moral issue?   

I think people have to be worked up to get discriminatory laws passed.   The head tax against the Chinese didn't come about after sober reflection; it came about as the end result of a campaign against Chinese immigrants.   Same with the legislation to inter Japanese in the second world war - the populace wasn't 'tricked' into doing something they disapproved of because it was framed as a moral issue, they were led, through propaganda, to feel threatened by the Japanese and so when the government enacted discriminatory legislation, it was essentially accepted.

I think a more likely (though not very, at least in Canada) scenario is that laws are passed that will restrict the freedom of Muslims.   That has historically been the end result when a group has been targeted in similar ways to how Muslims are being targeted today.   Japanese in Canada and in the States, Jews in Germany - they were all accused of 'threatening' the culture of their country, of having an agenda to 'take over' to the detriment of the rest of the citizens, of being a threat to women and children.     

 

Islam is a religion and political system similar to Nazism. It's not a race or a skin colour.

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3 hours ago, dialamah said:

I agree that perhaps there are people who would fail to stand up for what they believe, but would it really be that many?  And given the anti-Muslim sentiment already present in Canada, wouldn't that work to give people the courage to stand against what they believe is wrong, even if it is framed as a moral issue?   

I think people have to be worked up to get discriminatory laws passed.   The head tax against the Chinese didn't come about after sober reflection; it came about as the end result of a campaign against Chinese immigrants.   Same with the legislation to inter Japanese in the second world war - the populace wasn't 'tricked' into doing something they disapproved of because it was framed as a moral issue, they were led, through propaganda, to feel threatened by the Japanese and so when the government enacted discriminatory legislation, it was essentially accepted.

I think a more likely (though not very, at least in Canada) scenario is that laws are passed that will restrict the freedom of Muslims.   That has historically been the end result when a group has been targeted in similar ways to how Muslims are being targeted today.   Japanese in Canada and in the States, Jews in Germany - they were all accused of 'threatening' the culture of their country, of having an agenda to 'take over' to the detriment of the rest of the citizens, of being a threat to women and children.     

 

 

 

 

 

I would think the Charter will prevent the discrimination you fear at a government and public level. In regards to what happens at a private one on one level that I can not say.

I also would say this, history has shown us democracy has limits. If there were numerous Muslim extremist terrorist attacks in Canada,  the suspension of freedoms we take for granted under the Charter is possible in the name of peace, order and good government, a Charter clause.

I personally think for Muslims to fear being mass arrested and persecuted in Canada at one level is no different in subjective belief than those non Muslims who fear imminent terror attacks from Muslims. Both constitute fear based on speculation fueled by current events.

I am not in the business of telling a Muslim any more than I am a gentile or a Jew what they should fear or not fear. I can only express my own subjective opinion which is no better than anyone else's and say the enemy is within our society-he/she is already here and no amount of worrying will change that.

What I would say is we are now in a war of attrition world wide but its conflict fought by shadow people. By that I mean the war is not a distinct, visible and specific battle with two clear visible enemies for the most part engaging in open warfare. It's  a never ending  war of attrition where terrorists are invisible dressed to blend into their environment and be able to strike by surprise and engage in isolated unconnected acts deigned to cause a psychological reaction of shock and horror which then translates into a group anxiety or feeling of constant vulmerability and inability to feel secure in the face of terrorism.

Conventional wars won't top this.  In fact the tactics now used by Muslim extremists are no different than a modern up date of the psychological war the Viet Cong engaged in to neutralize conventional US armed forces. Do more and more, we have to train invisible soldiers, special operatives moving in fast, small teams striking as quickly as terrorists and disappearing after their work as done just as quickly as terrorists hit and run. Canada does this right now in Iraq and none of us reallhy  know what they do.

The conventional armies have become a smoke screen for special ops who engage in the real anti terror wars and none of us or the press know about. So the fact is the invisible war is here. Its a cat and mouse game between terrorists and these special ops and you and I have no clue the extent of their geographic regions of battle or the tactics they use.

Because of that reality I  do not fret over it. It is wasted emotion. So are for me the words of politicians exploiting fear to get votes.

I grew up in a neighbourhood and in a school where no one said a damn thing if someone called me a dirty Jew or picked a fight over it and pulled out the chains or knives and baseball bats. No government gave a damn. learned I was on my own-I did not assume anyone had my back except maybe my brother. I , picked my battles.I  didnn't respond every time-just sometimes-enough to send a message I would and could fight.

I hated fighting. Still do...but now and then had to.

I day to Muslims in Canada, compared to living in Muslim countries you have a chance-you have the chance to reach out to non Muslims and form coalitions. You have the chance to use the gift of free choice and speech to speak out and denounce terror, intolerance and violence and when you do-each time you do, it will  make a difference and win over people.

In the interim I would say to Muslims, do not mistake my animosity and war against terrorism with all Muslims. Speak out and I will hear yiu,. Stay silent and yes I may mistake that as condonation of terrorism. That may not be fair but all we minorities face that reality.

 

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For example...since quotes need commentary, apparently....

 

"From the rostrum of the Reichstag, I prophesied to Jewry that, in the event of war proving inevitable, the Jew would disappear from Europe. That race of criminals has on its conscience the two million dead of the First World War, and now already hundreds and thousands more. Let nobody tell me that all the same we can’t park them in the marshy parts of Russia! Who’s worrying about our troops? It’s not a bad idea, by the way, that public rumor attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews. Terror is a salutary thing."

---Adolf Hitler

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." 

---Mohammad

Edited by DogOnPorch
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6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Islam is a religion and political system similar to Nazism. It's not a race or a skin colour.

It is practiced that way  in many Muslim countries and within terror cells. However its also has been used by Amidyah or Ismaili Muslims to be peaceful and tolerant.

I would say it certainly can be the way its practiced and how its used to justifying the current slaughter of fellow Muslims, or against Israel or Kurds, Bahaiis, Christians, etc.. However I would be reluctant  to say that in a way that excludes and ignores those Muslims who have chosen not to use it that way, and in fact put their lives on the line of challenging it being used that way  I.e., the university students of Iran fighting  their regime as one example.

I also can not say that about the Beduin Arabs who defended Israel's right to exist and still do and died for that in past wars  or who along with Muslim Israelis  now join the IDF. I can not say that about the Muslims in Jordan who donated land for kibbutzim for holocaust survivors who fled to Israel and some who were killed for doing so. I can not say that about the Muslims who fought side by side Jews in the Palestinian regiments of the British Army during WW2 against the Nazis. I can not say that about Anwar Sadat a devout Muslim who openly admitted his government and he himself followed Nazism and used it as a model for the Egyptian government-he came to reject that and die for doing just that.

I can not ignore rightreous Muslims who support the right of Israel to exist and are progressive and reject the literal concept of kafirism.  Righteousness as its defined at Yad Vashem is blind to religion and lists many Muslims. That's the definition I use. There are foe example  63 Muslim Albanians on that righteous list who helped save Jews in WW2. How about Selhatin Ulkumen the Turkish Muslim Governor-General of Rhodes who in 1944 lied to the Nazis and passed off Jews as Turkish nationals so the Nazis could not deport them to their death? So for me I agree with you but I was taught as a Zionist to balance the discussions on Islam saying,  learn it, read it, understand how its used as a weapon but also understand how it was used  in a method to  save Jews as well. I also  know  better to say anything that would lump righteous Muslims in with  Muslim extremist Jew haters. Can't do that. Can't deliberately say something that I know would smeer good Muslims.

Its not right and no more right than saying that about Israelis, Zionists, Jews, and Christians.

I could spend pages on Christians who collaborated with Nazis. I prefer to spend it on the righteous Christians on the Yad Vashem list who died or put their lives on the line for us.

The righteous as we were taught were always a minority but proved you don't have to be the majority to do what is right and leave a legacy of hope not destruction behind.

So that said I will challenge how people use Islam.  All the problematic verses in the Koran can be reinterpreted as Muslims evolve past their literal interpretation of it. Will that happen soon. Oh hell I am no Pollyanna I aint holding my breath but the fact there are progressive Muslims doing it means I ally with them. I can't expect them to honour my people's right to be a collective if I can not do the same with their people

I am also not about to let a handful of anti Israel pissantes on this board claim a monopoly on how Muslims feel about Israel. They have no clue.  They still work on the idiotic premises that we  LOOK different.

I wish I had Moe-Zuz, G-Zuz and Moe Hamed,  here today now lined up at a police station. No witness could pick them out. They all look like  Axel Rose.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, PIK said:

So is trudeau trying to sneak in sharia law? I never thought I would ever say it, but did he become muslim,when he went thru the act of becoming one. Why the love affair with Islam?

http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/09/25/stop-normalizing-sharia-law-in-canada

I hate him but with due respect he was brought up by his father as a Jesuit Catholic and remains one.

Trudeau is what we call a Liberal PUTZ. He thinks the best of everyone. He's naïve. He grew up in a sheltered environment and learned things from a rich elitist perspective where the only Muslims he knows are filthy rich and go to the same clubs and have trust funds just like him and fly him for Christmas to extravagant resorts. His photo ops with Syrian refugees are followed by use of anti-septic hand wash off screen. .

He is an air head. He has no clue about Islam other than a superficial romantic version of it.

His brother Sasha is an interesting take Sasha travelled to Iran and did a pro Iran documentary with full support of the Iranian regime, It was a dead ringer for  a Goebels  WW 2 Nazi propaganda film.

Trudeau is pro any minority he thinks will get him re-elected.  He uses  Muslims no different than anyone else.

He panders.

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1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Muslim community saw him recite the Shahada in front of MULTIPLE male witnesses. JT might not think that MEANS anything...but it does.

He does still attend the Church he was raised in, so even if what you say is remotely accurate, he is no longer a Muslim.

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It's this part of the motion that concerns me:

develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination including Islamophobia, in Canada, while ensuring a community-centered focus with a holistic response through evidence-based policy-making

The motion condemning anti-semitism did not mention a government approach or policy-making.  If all people are entitled to equal rights, protection and benefits under the law, then when we start to legislate special policy for individual groups to increase or change that general protection, we stray from that principle.

And let's face it, the key word in the motion is Islamophobia, which is not defined, it's left completely open-ended.  Sam Harris described Islam as "the motherlode of bad ideas" - is that Islamophobic?  Are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins Islamophobic?   Many supporters of Islam  call them "islamophobic", and lump any criticism of Islam into the bucket of  bigotry, Islamophobia and racism.  The same ones who purport that any criticism of Islam MUST be rooted in bigotry, disguised in criticism of ideas.  Islamophobia is a catch-all for any negative reactions to Islam, as we've seen here.

Yes, I do think the motion could be used to introduce special laws designed to insulate Islam from any criticism (blasphemy laws)  Or maybe it will just put Islamophobia into the vernacular of laws that already exist and define it in a meaningful way.  I think part of that will depend on how Muslims themselves react to this motion and any laws that come out of it - will there be an influx of frivolous HR tribunals, dragging people into hearings about whether they walked on their carpet intentionally or the other people in the office ordered ham on the pizza when they know Muslims don't eat ham, so obvious "harrassment at work"?

Could go either way, IMO.

 

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10 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

It demands special treatment.

It took me a while to figure out this about my former religion, too.  I hadn't realized when I was in it, how arrogant our way of thinking was - we demanded everyone accomodate us and our beliefs, while refusing to accomodate others because our religion didn't allow accomodation.  I see the same in Islam.  And experienced it many, many times.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Ohh.. Scary picture!!

:rolleyes:

Again...your ONLY defence is to lie and claim I made the whooooooole thing up.

I do admire your ability, however, to support an organization that is as devoutly anti-woman as it is anti-West/anti-Semitic.

Some women long to be told what to do.

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1 minute ago, Goddess said:

It took me a while to figure out this about my former religion, too.  I hadn't realized when I was in it, how arrogant our way of thinking was - we demanded everyone accomodate us and our beliefs, while refusing to accomodate others because our religion didn't allow accomodation.  I see the same in Islam.  And experienced it many, many times.

 

JW?

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Just now, Goddess said:

Si.

That's why I recognize it now when I see it.  All religions have it to some degree.  Same as all relgions have comparables to cults.  Some are just more "high-control" than others, though.  JW and Islam - high control and very cultish.

 

My grandparents disowned me for not converting as a teenager. I remember getting ANGRY with them when they THREW AWAY priceless German books from as early as the 1700s in order to purge their old lives...

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6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

My grandparents disowned me for not converting as a teenager. I remember getting ANGRY with them when they THREW AWAY priceless German books from as early as the 1700s in order to purge their old lives...

Yes, it's sad.  At least JW's don't have an actual death policy for those who leave - it's a symbolic one - shunning and disowning.  You can still get on with your life.

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8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Muslim community saw him recite the Shahada in front of MULTIPLE male witnesses. JT might not think that MEANS anything...but it does.

"There is no God but Allah.  Muhammed is the messenger of God."

Just to explain what Dog refers to its the above saying which is known as the Shahada and Dog singles it out because many believe  only a Muslim will state this . The term "THE" before the word messenger is interpreted to read that ONLY Muhammed is the true  messenger of God, no different then when Christians put the word "THE" before the word "saviour" or "messiah"  or "son of God" when referring to Jesus. It is the first of 5 pillars (fundamental beliefs) of Sunni Muslims.

It is the most common and so important of statements Muslims make and supposedly devout Muslims say it to their newborns and on the deathbed of those on their way out.

Interestingly its the words on the Saudi Green flag in white on top of the white  sword.

It is said if you quote the above with conviction that is all you need to convert to Islam, which is why many say when Trudeau recited openly that is what he did.

Did he do that to pander to Muslims or because he really converted? Lol I suspect the former not the latter but technically a Jew or Christian or believer in any other religion should not say it because its intent is to exclusively select Muhammed as THE no. 1 messenger. To be fair it does acknowledge other prophets, but none at the same level of truth or righteousness as Muhammed, so Jews who practice Judaism would not say that since they are still waiting for the messiah. Christians wouldn't say it since they believe Jesus is the messiah or messenger of messengers. So its a controversial phrase to be sure if you are not Muslim and say it.

Now me I believe anyone, I mean anyone is a messiah or messenger of God and we were all "born" from God and sent to try heal the world.

That makes me a form of Kabbalist Jew or what others call Gnostic Christians, Taoists, Buddhists, certain kinds of other Eastern religions were we believe God is not a person but an abstract approximation for a source of energy we believe travels infinitely and mutates in expression and form. We believe there is a point where all and nothing are one and the same and from that point all and nothing decides to share itself by creating from a  portion of itself a detached form of its energy which in turn does the same and an infinite wave or progression of dettachments then cascades creating infinite numbers of universes and life forms.

This believe expressed in most religions is reserved for the mystics, the elders who evolve passed the literal meanings of words and the perceptions of the five senses in our material world which these mystics would call illusions, mistaken constructs caused by the distortion of our material world that leave sus to believe that which is can only be of our 5 senses say so.

Now when you get into fundamentalist Islam like fundamentalist Judaism or Christianity, we don't go into discussions about God as an abstract notion of the infinite movement of energy-it says rooted in tales of humans and lessons through Moses, Jesus, Muhammed.

Its only when you become a mystic Jew and unlock the Kaballah or are a mystic Christian sworn to the secrecy of the inner lawyer of elite Jesuits or perhaps a rare sect of Suddis or Wahabi Muslims do you get into this mystical world of abstract energy flow as in animistic or aboriginal belief systems or  Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism or certain Martial Arts disciplines.

Its probable there are very deep profound mystical Muslims who have transcended the Koran's literal words as Jews and Christians have but we common folk would never know.

As for this chant its a faith creed. It is similar to the one in Judaism that says "Here oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." or affirmations by Christians in prayer about Jesus being The So of God and all salvation must be through belief in him and his purpose.

I treat all humans as having originated from the same source of energy so I would not declare the second part of the saying. In discussions I would say Muhammed, Jesus, are considered equally as divine by their respective followers and in that sense infallible. In Judaism Rabbiahs, learned scholars, are fallible and to be questioned. The expression "messiah" is taken by the majority of religious  Jews to literally mean one person who has yet to come.

For non religious Jews or modern Jews, like modern Christians or very progressive modern Muslims, we don't read messiah to be one person, just a figurative expression of the potential in all of us to do good and therefore heal or save the world or do bad and injure it. So in that sense it makes us both good and evil not just one or the other, which is ironically in physics what is claimed to make energy-negative and positive poles clashing. The negative and positive poles some believe was made into a coded reference as Adam and Eve.

Either that or we are all inbred and that would explain why the planet is full of crazy humans.

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