Islamophobia in Canada

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, but I think it would be naive to believe that all those involved were equally enthusiastic about going to a cleric for arbitration. 

I tend to agree.  This issue seems to be the cutting edge of questions of plurality and accommodation, and religious liberty too.  The impact, to my mind, is nebulous either way.  I don't care much that Ontario scrapped this service or that Australia offers it.  The Justice system in Canada has far bigger problems IMO.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Having a sense of judgement is not the same as being 'bigoted'. This is the thing you people on the far left have never understood. 

It's the haughty sneering manner in which you present your judgements that make you so bigoted  - something most right wingers appear to be completely oblivious to.

Maybe they're just trying to appear tough or something.

 

 

[marcus]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Having a sense of judgement is not the same as being 'bigoted'. This is the thing you people on the far left have never understood.

Wrong. You should look up the meaning bigotry to understand how your comments are bigoted.

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As I said a few times already, the people who voted Trump were not so much hoping he would save them from Mexicans and Muslims as reacting to you and your type. It is the rigid, far left identity politics that so many ordinary people react to with dismay and contempt. When Trump's supporters delight in him saying outrageous things it isn't because they hate Mexicans, it's because they hate you.

The reasons why Trump won was due to the following:

- Clinton and the Democrats were the same old shit and many people, no longer had the stomach for someone like Clinton, which leads to:
- People didn't show up to vote. Only 58% of eligible voters, voted. That's one of the lowest turnouts in a long time.
- The loud minority who are die-hard Trump supporters are typically low in intelligence, uneducated and are attracted reality tv stars.
- The electoral system sucks

Trump supporters delight in his saying outrageous (read: racist / lies / b.s.) because they are immature, uneducated and like fart jokes

Quote

Well, there is more violent crime now. I'll give you that. I'm at a loss for what other way they've changed Canada so far, other than increasing the amount of antisemitism. 

Let me correct you:

Violent crimes have gone down over the past decades. Just very recently it went up after consecutive years of it going down, but overall, it's been a steady decrease. Not only that, it sounds like you are suggesting that violent crimes are being committed by Muslims. Muslims, in Canada and North America have the lowest per capita presence in prisons. But you need to release that fear and apply blame. 

The rate of racist and islamophobic attacks have increased more than any other ethnicity/religion. The problem is with scared, ignorant, bigoted white guys.

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Wouldn't even want to visit. This is really more of what I posted some time ago, about the different personalities of people, and what they like. Certain types tend to like new things, they're flighty and don't think much about tomorrow. They like to play, and enjoy life.

It's because you are a scared person. It's the fear of the unknown. The inability to adapt and adjust to changes in the world. The inevitable. You want to hold onto things that you are comfortable with. This fear does not allow you to advance. It probably has to do with being isolated and growing up around the same, stale things, "old stock" Canadians are used to. 

Usually, these things are taught by parents. The scared people, who are afraid of change were never taught. Being curious and learning about what you don't know about is how the human race was able to advance. The silk road opened not only economies to each other, but brought people together to learn about technology and food and art and science. I'm sure there were 'old stock' people in the past who were against the silk road. It probably scared them. They were too scared of change and they were not brave enough to learn.

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There's no serious thought among them and you can't build a society with them. Other types, like me, care about tradition and security, look to the future, and want to plan for the long term. We worry about the debt and want to ensure the country doesn't go to hell because we're proud of it and its accomplishments.

The society is being built and those who are unable to learn and adapt to the inevitable changes will be pushed aside. Perhaps some will go crazy and start shooting up schools, mosques and politicians, but eventually, they will be pushed aside. 

You worry. I see that. I also see that you're trying to blame these worries onto people you don't know anything about. You need a boogeyman. A caricature to blame things on. This is not something new. Scared ignorant people have been blaming immigrants for a long time. Not too many decades ago, the Irish were demonized. So were the Italians (those darker Europeans). Jews were also persecuted. It's a cycle. Muslims are the latest flavour to blame. Take the worst from a group, create a stereotype and then claim the majority are like that.  

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Your kind, of course, having on real attachment or even liking for Canada, and knowing nothing about its history, don't care what happens to it, and all you can see from letting in masses of largely intolerant and rabidly religious people is they bring new types of restaurants with them. Thus the disagreement.

I love Canada. I love how it has progressed. I love how there is a chance and a platform to become better. It's certainly not perfect and can continue to improve, but I'm happy that I'm privileged and lucky to be in this part of the world. We have come a long way in the past century.

In some ways, I feel sorry for scared people, who always seem to have a chip on their shoulder. They are always suspicious of those who they're afraid to understand and get to know. It's a crappy way to live and a missed opportunity to learn. It's a shame.

[marcus]

On 7/30/2017 at 9:32 AM, bcsapper said:

Nobody's scared of Muslims. (Well, maybe other Muslims, Muslim women, etc., but certainly no-one on here) 

It's more that they are irritated by hippies who set their hair on fire every time someone criticises one.

No. There are a lot of scared people. Scriblett, betsy, Argus. They are scared of the caricature that's been created in their heads.

Your use of the word hippie brings down your credibility to have a serious debate. If that's what you want to do, fine. 

[Argus]

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

Trump supporters delight in his saying outrageous (read: racist / lies / b.s.) because they are immature, uneducated and like fart jokes

Nearly 50% of the electorate?

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

Violent crimes have gone down over the past decades.

Violent crime has risen aside from a decline based solely on the lower number of young men in the population. More importantly, the nature of violent crime has gotten worse.

Prior to Canada loosening up immigration, the only violent gangs we had were the motorcycle gangs, and they were few in number and few in population. Now every city has hundreds of violent members of street gangs, almost all of them ethnic.

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

Not only that, it sounds like you are suggesting that violent crimes are being committed by Muslims. Muslims, in Canada and North America have the lowest per capita presence in prisons.

You have no evidence to support that since in the US Muslims are lumped in, for statistical purposes, with Caucasians, the way Hispanics used to be, and Canadians are too polite to keep racial or religious statistics on its criminals.

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

The rate of racist and islamophobic attacks have increased more than any other ethnicity/religion. The problem is with scared, ignorant, bigoted white guys.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the number of Islamist attacks around the world, huh? Nothing to do with people wearing bedsheets and bags on their heads walking around demanding special treatment?

Naw, just those horrible white guys again, coincidentally the most liberal, permissive and easy going population on the planet.

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

 Scared ignorant people have been blaming immigrants for a long time. Not too many decades ago, the Irish were demonized. So were the Italians (those darker Europeans). Jews were also persecuted. It's a cycle. Muslims are the latest flavour to blame. Take the worst from a group, create a stereotype and then claim the majority are like that.  

Yes, I understand how it works. What I also understand is that not every single population (excluding white guys of course) is made up of wonderful, free thinking, tolerant individuals. I understand that the economics are different now, and that the cultural value set of this particular group of immigrants differs from our home-grown value system by a FAR greater degree than any other large immigrant group in our history.

24 minutes ago, marcus said:

I love Canada. I

That's simply not true. Everything you've ever posted here speaks of your contempt for western society and Canadian values. The only love you might have is for the immigrants you hope will make Canada more like their homelands and less like the place you feel such contempt for.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, marcus said:

No. There are a lot of scared people. Scriblett, betsy, Argus. They are scared of the caricature that's been created in their heads.

Your use of the word hippie brings down your credibility to have a serious debate. If that's what you want to do, fine. 

Your use of the word scared does that.  And that's fine too.

[taxme]

On 7/19/2017 at 7:23 AM, jacee said:

This person is one sicko criminal. I hope they lock him up and throw away the key.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-mosque-hate-package-1.4211778

Muslims in Quebec City are expressing new concern after a package containing a defaced Qur'an and a note suggesting they use a hog farm for their cemetery was delivered to the mosque where six men were shot and killed in January.

I know what we can do about all this anti-Muslim stuff going on? Just stop allowing anymore Muslims into Canada. There, problem solved. I am such a genius, eh? It all just makes common sense and logic to me.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

No. There are a lot of scared people. Scriblett, betsy, Argus. They are scared of the caricature that's been created in their heads.

Your use of the word hippie brings down your credibility to have a serious debate. If that's what you want to do, fine. 

You didn't mention Jacee.  She wants someone imprisoned for life for being insulting.  Now that's scared!

On 2017-07-19 at 8:23 AM, jacee said:

This person is one sicko criminal. I hope they lock him up and throw away the key.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-mosque-hate-package-1.4211778

Muslims in Quebec City are expressing new concern after a package containing a defaced Qur'an and a note suggesting they use a hog farm for their cemetery was delivered to the mosque where six men were shot and killed in January.

[taxme]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

Wrong. You should look up the meaning bigotry to understand how your comments are bigoted.

The reasons why Trump won was due to the following:

- Clinton and the Democrats were the same old shit and many people, no longer had the stomach for someone like Clinton, which leads to:
- People didn't show up to vote. Only 58% of eligible voters, voted. That's one of the lowest turnouts in a long time.
- The loud minority who are die-hard Trump supporters are typically low in intelligence, uneducated and are attracted reality tv stars.
- The electoral system sucks

Trump supporters delight in his saying outrageous (read: racist / lies / b.s.) because they are immature, uneducated and like fart jokes

Let me correct you:

Violent crimes have gone down over the past decades. Just very recently it went up after consecutive years of it going down, but overall, it's been a steady decrease. Not only that, it sounds like you are suggesting that violent crimes are being committed by Muslims. Muslims, in Canada and North America have the lowest per capita presence in prisons. But you need to release that fear and apply blame. 

The rate of racist and islamophobic attacks have increased more than any other ethnicity/religion. The problem is with scared, ignorant, bigoted white guys.

It's because you are a scared person. It's the fear of the unknown. The inability to adapt and adjust to changes in the world. The inevitable. You want to hold onto things that you are comfortable with. This fear does not allow you to advance. It probably has to do with being isolated and growing up around the same, stale things, "old stock" Canadians are used to. 

Usually, these things are taught by parents. The scared people, who are afraid of change were never taught. Being curious and learning about what you don't know about is how the human race was able to advance. The silk road opened not only economies to each other, but brought people together to learn about technology and food and art and science. I'm sure there were 'old stock' people in the past who were against the silk road. It probably scared them. They were too scared of change and they were not brave enough to learn.

The society is being built and those who are unable to learn and adapt to the inevitable changes will be pushed aside. Perhaps some will go crazy and start shooting up schools, mosques and politicians, but eventually, they will be pushed aside. 

You worry. I see that. I also see that you're trying to blame these worries onto people you don't know anything about. You need a boogeyman. A caricature to blame things on. This is not something new. Scared ignorant people have been blaming immigrants for a long time. Not too many decades ago, the Irish were demonized. So were the Italians (those darker Europeans). Jews were also persecuted. It's a cycle. Muslims are the latest flavour to blame. Take the worst from a group, create a stereotype and then claim the majority are like that.  

I love Canada. I love how it has progressed. I love how there is a chance and a platform to become better. It's certainly not perfect and can continue to improve, but I'm happy that I'm privileged and lucky to be in this part of the world. We have come a long way in the past century.

In some ways, I feel sorry for scared people, who always seem to have a chip on their shoulder. They are always suspicious of those who they're afraid to understand and get to know. It's a crappy way to live and a missed opportunity to learn. It's a shame.

What bull chit. All of the people who voted for Trump are well educated, intelligent, smart voters, and not racist. They were all just fed up with the dumbocrats and all their lying and crooked ways of doing things. The dumbocrats put America in the toilet, and they supported the deep state and the corruption that went on for eight years under Obamarama and the Clinton's. Thank chit those three along with others may soon end up in the gulag where they all belong. We will have to wait and see what Trey Gowdy can do about putting those liars in the gulag for a long time.  

The election of Obamarama kind of reminds me of our last election where the majority of the stunned Canadians gave us all a feminist pro-Muslim PM as the leader of Canada. What a joke the dear leader has become. Now that is what I call people who are uneducated, showed no signs of intelligence at all, and were just plain stupid to say the least to vote for a guy who hates Canada and all that it once stood for. 

I hope that I have now corrected you. 

[marcus]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Nearly 50% of the electorate?

I already mentioned the variables involved in why he was elected. On top of that, Trump, more than the average politician, promised things that he ended up backing away from. This is one of the reasons why he is now one of the least popular presidents in the history. Especially in the first year of his presidency, where most presidents end up having the highest favourable rating of their careers. Only people still backing Trump are the uneducated, scared white people who are too lazy and unintelligent to learn and research and instead follow what is fed to them.

Quote

Violent crime has risen aside from a decline based solely on the lower number of young men in the population. More importantly, the nature of violent crime has gotten worse.

You may want to educate yourself on the rate of crime in Canada. Because I can't sit here and feed you information. Especially, as later posts have indicated, you end up repeating false information after being taught otherwise.

Here is some information that may help you understand things a little better - maybe: http://globalnews.ca/news/2836239/violent-crime-surges-upward-in-canada-for-the-first-time-in-12-years/

Quote

Prior to Canada loosening up immigration, the only violent gangs we had were the motorcycle gangs, and they were few in number and few in population. Now every city has hundreds of violent members of street gangs, almost all of them ethnic.

 

LOL.

Are you angry that crimes are being committed by people other than white gangs? The rest of your comments are once again, emotional diatribe. You are sinking.

Quote

You have no evidence to support that since in the US Muslims are lumped in, for statistical purposes, with Caucasians, the way Hispanics used to be, and Canadians are too polite to keep racial or religious statistics on its criminals.

And your evidence is what? Your racist gut feeling?

Quote

It wouldn't have anything to do with the number of Islamist attacks around the world, huh? Nothing to do with people wearing bedsheets and bags on their heads walking around demanding special treatment?

Wearing bedsheets? You're sinking.

Quote

Yes, I understand how it works. What I also understand is that not every single population (excluding white guys of course) is made up of wonderful, free thinking, tolerant individuals. I understand that the economics are different now, and that the cultural value set of this particular group of immigrants differs from our home-grown value system by a FAR greater degree than any other large immigrant group in our history.

There are crappy people in all groups and sub-groups. Overall, based on more than just my personal observation, our country is improving in many aspects. According to data, our country is also improving in many areas. From lower crime rates, comparing now with more minorities to when the percentage of 'white people' was higher, to our economy, including GDP. 

What other information and stats do you have to show that immigrants are bad for this country? I mean, you brought up bedsheets on heads, but that's just something that hurts your feelings. Bedsheets on heads don't really hurt the economy, increase the crime rate or anything else.

Quote

That's simply not true. Everything you've ever posted here speaks of your contempt for western society and Canadian values. The only love you might have is for the immigrants you hope will make Canada more like their homelands and less like the place you feel such contempt for.

No. Despite what you say about how I feel about Canada, I still love Canada and look forward to it getting better. Part of that improvement is educating our young and teaching them about what they may be unfamiliar with so they don't end up being scared people who argue based on ignorance.

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by marcus

[jacee]

31 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You didn't mention Jacee.  She wants someone imprisoned for life for being insulting.  Now that's scared!

 

Are you defending that creep?

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/valerio-anti-muslim-groups-should-provoke-louder-response-from-our-leaders

We've already had 6 Muslims killed in Canada by a violent terrorist.

Paramilitary hate groups are demonstrating against Muslims, arming themselves and practicing ... for something.

Do you think that's a good thing?

I think hateful creeps like that we don't need.

[Guest]

Just now, jacee said:

Are you defending that creep?

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/valerio-anti-muslim-groups-should-provoke-louder-response-from-our-leaders

We've already had 6 Muslims killed in Canada by a violent terrorist.

Paramilitary hate groups are demonstrating against Muslims, arming themselves and practicing ... for something.

Do you think that's a good thing?

I think hateful creeps like that we don't need.

This is a common tactic.  If I don't think someone should be imprisoned for life for insulting people, (I don't) then I'm defending him.

[jacee]

50 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

This is a common tactic.  If I don't think someone should be imprisoned for life for insulting people, (I don't) then I'm defending him.

Oh sure. Take it literally. 

I think it should be an illegal action to harass and terrorize people that way because of their religion. I don't care whether it's called a hate crime. It's definitely harassment.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, jacee said:

Oh sure. Take it literally. 

I think it should be an illegal action to harass and terrorize people that way because of their religion. I don't care whether it's called a hate crime. It's definitely harassment.

I never actually checked to see what was done, figuring it was pretty bad, given what you said.  But when I opened the article, I saw

Muslims in Quebec City are expressing new concern after a package containing a defaced Qur'an and a note suggesting they use a hog farm for their cemetery was delivered to the mosque where six men were shot and killed in January.

  Was there more?  (I didn't read the rest) Because that's not really that big a deal.  Defacing a Koran.  Shouldn't be crime.  (as long as you own it)

Suggestions as to local cemetary placement?  Again, not a crime.  Even if the intent was to insult.

You want being an arsehole made illegal.  I don't.

What if it had been someone burning a US flag?  Would you advocate jail time?  I wouldn't.

Edited July 31, 2017 by bcsapper

[Rue]

27 minutes ago, jacee said:

Oh sure. Take it literally. 

I think it should be an illegal action to harass and terrorize people that way because of their religion. I don't care whether it's called a hate crime. It's definitely harassment.

As a Jew I find such discussions a tad cynical coming from the left posing as if they are concerned about bigotry. Left wingers have no problem getting into bed with bigots against Jews who feel Jews have the right to be a political collective. In such instances the bigotry flows and Liberals have no problem marching with trendy leftists and neo Nazis and pro Muslim extremists suspending any tolerance and demanding Jews be fired from their positions and boycotted. Trendy leftist Liberals have no problems getting into bed defending Muslim extremists and their views but then in the next breath pissing on Christians for having similar fundamental religious views.

Excuse me then if I find your outrage and concern selective and inconsistent and only something you express for selective purposes, i.e, it is limited by you to Muslims and no one else.

I believe you'd b e the first in line with a pitch fork and a torch screaming for Frankenstein's head yelling he's a Zionist. You don't apply a fair and consistent standard of tolerance to all peoples. You tolerate what you politically agree with and stop there.

BC's point is and he knows I have to know it - trying to censor someone's hateful beliefs will not make them go away. Canada gives us the opportunity to debate and challenge such feelings in public if we have to.

Bc is right. You don't have to condone or agree with a bigot but you have to let them speak. Isn't it ironic you select the Charter and spew outrage over it being violated in Kadr's case but now extol ignoring its provisions on freedom of speech? How selective and convenient.

Our laws are not perfect but we already have laws that say  if someone incites violence they will get arrested. Until then the Charter, you know the same one you use to protect Kadr, it also protects freedom of expression by bigots and so it should because if you shut them up you shut up everyone else as well. There's no such thing as a little bit of pregnancy when it comes to freedom of speech. Its the nature of the beast.

By the way I don't hear you asking or Omar's mother to be arrested? Have you heard what she has said about terrorism and Canada?

Why do you and liberals not jump up and down demanding she be held accountable for inciting Kadr's behaviour if you think he was innocent?

We need to engage in common sense and a standard of consistency that deals with all people equally. Selecting only the trendy causes you want to be outraged about is the superficial, shallow phony posing I accuse trendy leftists on this board with evidencing and its why I challenge many of your comments.

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Rue

[hot enough]

44 minutes ago, Rue said:

By the way I don't hear you asking or Omar's mother to be arrested? Have you heard what she has said about terrorism and Canada?

Why do you and liberals not jump up and down demanding she be held accountable for inciting Kadr's behaviour if you think he was innocent?

All Rue blather with no sourcing, no evidence.

[jacee]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I never actually checked to see what was done, figuring it was pretty bad, given what you said.  But when I opened the article, I saw

Muslims in Quebec City are expressing new concern after a package containing a defaced Qur'an and a note suggesting they use a hog farm for their cemetery was delivered to the mosque where six men were shot and killed in January.

  Was there more?  (I didn't read the rest) Because that's not really that big a deal.  Defacing a Koran.  Shouldn't be crime.  (as long as you own it)

Suggestions as to local cemetary placement?  Again, not a crime.  Even if the intent was to insult.

You want being an arsehole made illegal.  I don't.

What if it had been someone burning a US flag?  Would you advocate jail time?  I wouldn't.

No I wouldn't either. It's a piece of cloth.

Terrorizing people because of their religion is another matter.

Six people of this community were already recently murdered because of their religion.

Edited July 31, 2017 by jacee

[GostHacked]

9 hours ago, Argus said:

Because our politicians aren't whores who salivate for the ethnic vote. And even as Muslim numbers continue to rise they won't kowtow to local ethnic leaders and grovel at their feet for votes. Because... uh... because our politicians have such integrity. 

Well from what I understand , Muslims in Canada wanted some system for their own family courts some years back. That got crushed and at the same time, the Jewish family courts were also abolished which supports the notion of one set of laws for all Ontarians/Canadians. Which to me is fair. On the notion of cemeteries, I have no problem with religion-specific graveyards. So it looks like we already went down this road, and that battle was won a decade ago.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-bill-bans-faith-based-tribunals/article1131070/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Wow, I had no idea McGinty was behind that.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, jacee said:

No I wouldn't either. It's a piece of cloth.

Terrorizing people because of their religion is another matter.

Six people of this community were already recently murdered because of their religion.

A koran is a piece of paper.  No big deal.

[jacee]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

A koran is a piece of paper.  No big deal.

It isn't about paper.

It's about people being terrorized because of their religion.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

It isn't about paper.

It's about people being terrorized because of their religion.

 

Or insulted? 

Was there something I missed in the article?  I admitted I didn't read it all.  Maybe I missed threats?  That I can see being against the law.

Edited August 1, 2017 by bcsapper

[jacee]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Or insulted? 

Was there something I missed in the article?  I admitted I didn't read it all.  Maybe I missed threats?  That I can see being against the law.

Certainly.

Investigation in progress ...

[Guest]

Just now, jacee said:

Certainly.

Investigation in progress ...

Ah, well.  Threats are against the law.

[jacee]

53 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Ah, well.  Threats are against the law.

So are hate crimes against people because of their religion.

[Hal 9000]

A vote was had and people voted against a cemetery - The law is the law according to Omni, so case closed.