Islamophobia in Canada

[dre]

43 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Not all conservatives believe exactly the same way.  There are many who are not religious and are more like liberals on these issues.  A political party is not a church.  The Conservative party includes people from all different religious and non-religious beliefs and backgrounds.

Thats true most conservatives are not a problem. But its conservatives on both sides that are ones causing the problem, and spouting all kinds of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides. The most conservative muslims are the also the most militant, and the most conservative westerners are as well.

Like I said... I wish they could just fight to death in a big stadium and leave everyone else out of it. I would buy front row seats. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I agree, you can hate homosexuality as much as you want.  So can Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs.  But what you and they can't do, by law and morally, is attack them physically or discriminate against them in the marketplace, school or work.  

 

It's bizarre that you think Conservatives or people in this country physically attack or discriminate against homosexuals in Canada.  There are laws against that.  But in some of your beloved Muslim countries, homosexuality is illegal and people can be imprisoned or maybe even receive a death sentence.  There are place where people kill homosexuals. That's why Canada just recently accepted a refugee claim from a bi-sexual man from a country in Africa. 

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Having come late to the discussion you fail to realize that the assigning of labels did not start with me, and you have chosen to applaud those who've chosen to insult me.  That is why you've lost my respect.  

I don't care where the labelling started, you choose to participate in it.  That's where you lost my respect.  

i don't applaud anyone who insults you or anyone else, the same as I don't applaud you when you do it.

I think I've generally  handled the likes of hot enough, Altai, and other offensive posters here, in a respectful (but firm) way.  If I've failed to chastise someone here to the extent that you prefer, well......tough beans.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, dre said:

Thats true most conservatives are not a problem. But its conservatives on both sides that are ones causing the problem, and spouting all kinds of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides. The most conservative muslims are the also the most militant, and the most conservative westerners are as well.

Like I said... I wish they could just fight to death in a big stadium and leave everyone else out of it. I would buy front row seats. 

I don't know what inflammatory rhetoric some conservatives are spouting.  Maybe you could enlighten us.  Also we live in a free country and people of any political belief are free to express their disagreement with certain things.  You can call that inflammatory and it might offend some, but that is what freedom of speech is all about.  You can disagree with whatever you wish.  You have expressed very strong opinions on here yourself.

[dre]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't know what inflammatory rhetoric some conservatives are spouting.  Maybe you could enlighten us.  Also we live in a free country and people of any political belief are free to express their disagreement with certain things.  You can call that inflammatory and it might offend some, but that is what freedom of speech is all about.  You can disagree with whatever you wish.  You have expressed very strong opinions on here yourself.

Militant minded western conservatives are casting Islam as an evil existential threat, and militant minded muslim conservatives are casting the west as an evil existential threat.

These are really the exact same kind of folks, just born on opposite sides that divide.

[dialamah]

50 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It's bizarre that you think Conservatives or people in this country physically attack or discriminate against homosexuals in Canada.  There are laws against that. 

I said that those actions were morally wrong and in Canada, illegal.  And yes, they do happen although probably not as often as in the $tates.   It's usually the conservative Christian right objecting to gays, transexuals, abortion providers and sometimes violently.  I'm sure you don't approve of violence, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

But in some of your beloved Muslim countries

 

This is why I don't like talking to people like you, this implication that because I fail to hate and fear Muslims I must therefore "love" everything about them/their religion/their countries.  

Edited May 19, 2017 by dialamah

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This is why I don't like talking to people like you, this implication that because I fail to hate and fear Muslims I must therefore "love" everything about them/their religion/their countries.  

Seems to be relatively constant "nuance" with most of those people.

[dialamah]

54 minutes ago, Goddess said:

don't applaud anyone who insults you or anyone else, the same as I don't applaud you when you do it.

You choose to only take one side to task though, the side that disagrees with your conviction of Muslims as nasty.  And I'll say to you, as I said to Argus: given your experience and what you believe, your attitude comes as no surprise.

And further, to give you full credit, you are very measured in your responses.  

Please now return to applauding the xenophobes and Islamaphobes whose words you admire so much, since they echo your own beliefs.

 

[Argus]

16 hours ago, dialamah said:

Conservatives are the ones who reject people because they are gay, because they are gay and want to marry, because they are transgender, because they are pro-choice, because of their religion, because they wear a hijab, because they don't 'fit in' with the prevailing culture.  

The Muslims that we don't want in Canada view the world with the same narrow-minded, "my culture is superior, you must accept it" attitude that a certain small right-wing group on here also have.

You criticize Conservatives for 'rejecting' gays who want to marry' but embrace Muslims who want to kill gays. You also ignore the fact Muslims are pro-life. You also imagine that the Muslims who are devoted to their religion don't want to come here despite plentiful evidence they do indeed.

But then, being willing to lie to yourself is at the heart of being a progressive.

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

You criticize Conservatives for 'rejecting' gays who want to marry' but embrace Muslims who want to kill gays.

Is there ever an end to these wild, unfounded assumptions?

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dre said:

I think that's paranoia. 

I also think that even if a law WAS made that made criticizing Islam illegal the courts would strike it down the first time it was challenged.

I have yet to see the courts strike down anything which favored the interests of some minority group against that of the majority or support the government in anything that a minority group didn't like, be it gay rights, Muslim rights or native rights. The courts have routinely sided with minority special interest groups in all cases I'm aware of. Perhaps the height of their flagrant willingness to ignore law in favour of progressive ideology was their decision to accept 'oral history' from natives to 'prove' their cases. Although the decision to entitle the metis as an aboriginal people comes close.

[PIK]

On 5/18/2017 at 2:47 PM, Omni said:

Which parts of Sharia do you imagine Trudeau will try to put in place during his next term?

The same as what the liberals tried in ONT, family court.

[PIK]

3 minutes ago, Omni said:

Is there ever an end to these wild, unfounded assumptions?

It is true. 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

If I'm to be vilified by the likes of DoP or Argus for not accepting their version of Islam, a version based on intolerance and hate and rejected by the majority of practicing Muslims,

My version of Islam is based on reality, based on how the Muslim world interprets and accepts Islam. I'm not sure what your version of Islam is based on, but I'm willing to bet it would see you executed or at least imprisoned in most Muslim countries. I advise you to keep your mouth shut in public if you got back to Egypt about your interpretation of Islam.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

And if I point out that followers of Islam also love tolerance, forgiveness and peace I'm labelled a

I would label you a liar, and ask where these followers were located.

 

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

You criticize Conservatives for 'rejecting' gays who want to marry' but embrace Muslims who want to kill gays. You also ignore the fact Muslims are pro-life. You also imagine that the Muslims who are devoted to their religion don't want to come here despite plentiful evidence they do indeed.

But then, being willing to lie to yourself is at the heart of being a progressive.

Your claim that I embrace Muslims who want to kill gays is simply more ridiculous hyperbole in an attempt to discredit me for not falling for your xenophobic and Islamaphobic rhetoric.   

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dre said:

Thats true most conservatives are not a problem. But its conservatives on both sides that are ones causing the problem, and spouting all kinds of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides.

Really? If it weren't for the conservatives in Canada we would have had sharia law by now, as they have in the UK and in other parts of Europe. It's only been the conservatives putting any pressure on newcomer Muslims to adapt to our ways and accept our values and only been conservatives opposing more 'accomodation' in their favour. The ongoing meme from the left over the past forty years has been that immigrants should cherish their own culture and values and retain them - for after all, aren't all cultures equal?

Europe is what happens with an incoming stream of Muslim immigrants and no conservatives to pressure them to assimilate. Canada and the US are more conservative countries, and that is largely why immigrants to Canada and the US haven't felt free to indulge themselves in their usual cultural outlets of religious intolerance.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

Your claim that I embrace Muslims who want to kill gays is simply more ridiculous hyperbole in an attempt to discredit me for not falling for your xenophobic and Islamaphobic rhetoric.  

You embrace all Muslims - except for that tiny, tiny, tiny fringe, probably just a handful, who you label as 'extremist' and you completely and deliberately ignore the brutality of anti gay religious teaching, cultural practices, laws and beliefs of the entire Muslim world. So yes, you embrace them. And the proper word for my rhetoric is 'realism'. The proper term for yours is 'dishonest'.

 

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

My version of Islam is based on reality, based on how the Muslim world interprets and accepts Islam. I'm not sure what your version of Islam is based on, but I'm willing to bet it would see you executed or at least imprisoned in most Muslim countries. I advise you to keep your mouth shut in public if you got back to Egypt about your interpretation of Islam.

Its essentially the same version my family who live in Egypt follow.  Funny, they are neither dead nor in jail.  

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Its essentially the same version my family who live in Egypt follow.  Funny, they are neither dead nor in jail.  

Egypt has blasphemy laws. You start talking about 'your version' in public and you'll be in jail.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/21/in-sisis-egypt-blasphemy-is-still-a-crime/

Hell, a former Indonesian governor (a Christian) is in prison now because he had the temerity to say, during an election campaign, that he disagreed with his opponents when they claimed the Koran forbade any Muslim accepting a non-Muslim leader.

And Indonesia is one of the more LIBERAL Muslim states!

Edited May 19, 2017 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Your claim that I embrace Muslims who want to kill gays is simply more ridiculous hyperbole in an attempt to discredit me for not falling for your xenophobic and Islamaphobic rhetoric.   

 

 

You "liked" the wishing of my death you vile creature.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

You start talking about 'your version' in public and you'll be in jail.

You mean the version that most Muslims believe in peace and tolerance and that Allah disapproves of murder, conversion by the sword, pedophilia and discrimination of Jews and Christians?  That won't get me thrown in jail.  Its the same version of Islam that Sisi believes.

I could get thrown in jail if I was gay and someone told on me.  I could get thrown in jail if I insulted Allah or Mohammed, and someone reported me.  I could get thrown in jail if I supported or preached the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.  I could be thrown in jail for performing FGM, and I believe fined if I married my daughter off if she was under 18.    I might get thrown in jail if I was a journalist and was too overtly critical of certain policies.  

I don't agree with a lot of the laws in Egypt and many Egyptians would agree with me.  Its funny that you have no problem understanding that in Canada people don't universally agree with their government, yet can't imagine that citizens in other countries and under oppressive and corrupt regimes might also disagree with their government.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You mean the version that most Muslims believe in peace and tolerance and that Allah disapproves of murder, conversion by the sword, pedophilia and discrimination of Jews and Christians?  That won't get me thrown in jail.  Its the same version of Islam that Sisi believes.

I could get thrown in jail if I was gay and someone told on me.  I could get thrown in jail if I insulted Allah or Mohammed, and someone reported me.  I could get thrown in jail if I supported or preached the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.  I could be thrown in jail for performing FGM, and I believe fined if I married my daughter off if she was under 18.    I might get thrown in jail if I was a journalist and was too overtly critical of certain policies.  

I don't agree with a lot of the laws in Egypt and many Egyptians would agree with me.  Its funny that you have no problem understanding that in Canada people don't universally agree with their government, yet can't imagine that citizens in other countries and under oppressive and corrupt regimes might also disagree with their government.

 

 

 

Do you mean the peaceful version of Islam where you wish death on those who would dare apply criticism to your preferred cult? That one??

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

By the hands of Islam's peaceful sidekicks the Waffen Jihadi....no less.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

You sound like someone with an open mind as opposed to a closed mind, so why do you call yourself conservative?

I've no doubt that there is a range among conservatives and liberals as to what they find acceptable.  Still, the more conservative the person, the less likely they are to accept or tolerate someone 'different', imo.  

Again I don't want to whitewash liberals, and there is a valid debate as to whether liberals are any more willing to tolerate or accept certain conservative groups.

Anyway, wherever you are on the liberal-conservative spectrum, I appreciate that we're able to have relatively sane conversations, even if we disagree.

 

 

 

I guess it speaks to the inadequacies of political labels and the tendency to be defined more by what one is not, than by what one is.  I'm not a conservative so much because of my views, but rather, because I find liberal views so headshakingly insane sometimes.  Take abortion, for instance.  I doubt you'd find anyone more pro choice than me.  But I'm incensed that the system would jail an old nun for holding up a sign.