Islamophobia in Canada

[marcus]

The over 1 million Muslims in Canada. There are doctors, engineers, teachers, civil servants, etc. What is the upside of you being in Canada?

But..but according to Kimmy:

Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

This confuses me. Are these doctors, engineers, teachers and civil servants who gay bash, gang rape, burn synagogues and have stone age attitudes?

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Lord's Army and Canadian Christians believe in the same bible. No?

This is exactly the case. Just imagine if there were millions of them!

Edited November 26, 2015 by bcsapper

[Army Guy]

Why is it that when a Canadian expresses their feelings that they are concerned about who they are letting into this nation, our nation,be it a certain group, or religion they are lambasted as being racist or racish if there is a such a thing as racish.....

I to have a lot of concerns, most the same as kimmy's , concerns that Islam and it's teachings can be poison, and when mixed with poverty, certain cultures,it can be very bad combination....I don't consider myself to be racist.....i personally could not give a rats ass if you were purple with warts on your dick.....But there is a line in the sand as there is with everything.....Canadians have the shortest memories in the world, that and they don't really give a shit about what is going on around the world....

Kimmy has brought up some valid points.....Europe over flowing with these refugees, to the point they can barely cope with them all, most of these european countries are now having major issues with "Muslim" refugees, not only problems with crime, but employment, housing, and in a lot of cases ungrateful refugees who had visions of massive welfare systems, pay outs....and are finding out there is no golden bucket under the rainbow.....

I watched Hudsons video he posted, but once it ended, up came 6 more choices.....most of them dealing with the issues we don't here about in Canada....U tube clips on just about everything related to refugee crises, there are thousands of them......some made by news agencies, some made by individuals from the countries effected, some by the refugees themselves.....they don't paint the rosey picture and fairy tale ending we are all seeking......it paints one that could only end badly, for us and them......I'm concerned that all this and more will spill on to our shores....

It does not make me a racist.....but rather a concerned Canadian, who loves this country just the way it is....with out all the drama....

[marcus]

In 2011, Canada took in roughly 40,000 immigrants from Iran, Pakistan, the U.A.E, Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Somalia, Syria, and Kuwait.

According to the Stats Can figures I just looked at, the number and geographic breakdown of Canada's immigration sources seems to be pretty steady, so that's about 200,000 people from those nations in just the past 5 years, and no reason to assume the trend would be any different. Now we're adding 50% again to that number in Syrian refugees.

Majority of these immigrants that you saw in your stats and who have come to Canada, have come through the skilled worker category. Meaning that they have to have post secondary education, high English skills and enough settlement funds to come and live in Canada.

But that's beside the point. Nothing can excuse your superficial view of people who are Muslim. Which is the big issue with you and other Islamophobes. If you engaged and knew Muslims, there is no way you would believe the things that you are saying. Just because the governments of some of these countries have laws that are terrible, it doesn't mean that this is a reflection of what all the people think. If you knew Lebanese, Iranians, a Pakistanis, an Egyptians, you would realize how silly a person like you sounds, when you generalize and group them all with one label, because they come from Muslim countries. Even within those countries and ethnic backgrounds, there is a huge variety of people with different beliefs and views on everything.

This is the internet age. There is no excuse to be ignorant. There was a time when you could blame the ignorance on the lack of contact and information. I'm sure not many Muslims live in the rural areas as you seem to be from. But now, information is at the tip of your fingers. If you decide to be lazy and not genuinely learn about the people you fear so much, then this is a problem with you.

Edited November 26, 2015 by marcus

[eyeball]

Why is it that when a Canadian expresses their feelings that they are concerned about who they are letting into this nation, our nation,be it a certain group, or religion they are lambasted as being racist or racish if there is a such a thing as racish.....

I bet one reason is the obvious contempt for people who are more concerned about the welfare of the refugees.

[jacee]

Obviously they could not keep their families safe where they were, and land routes end at closed borders with tear gas.

No one would choose these boats unless they were the only option left.

[marcus]

No one with a heart could not be moved by the sight of those refugees arriving.

But I have given a lot of thought to the matter. I know that if this country were engaged in civil conflict, if we were poor, hungry and our lives were in danger there is no way I would put my young children in a raft like that and attempt to cross a sea. I would do whatever I could to hide, protect and provide for them and pray for the best but setting them out on a journey like that would not be an option.

Not if the other option is death.

[Smoke]

No one with a heart could not be moved by the sight of those refugees arriving.

But I have given a lot of thought to the matter. I know that if this country were engaged in civil conflict, if we were poor, hungry and our lives were in danger there is no way I would put my young children in a raft like that and attempt to cross a sea. I would do whatever I could to hide, protect and provide for them and pray for the best but setting them out on a journey like that would not be an option.

That was my initial thought too, but then think about those people who jumped to their death from the burning towers on 9/11. Not quite the same, but when you only have a few options, and they are equally deadly, you gotta make the best choice. In the case of the Syrian refugees it's either stay put and risk getting blown up/shot and not much of a future there, or, a dangerous trek across water to a possible better life. I'd rather me and my family drown of our own accord than to be murdered at the hands of some power hungry P.O.S.

[kimmy]

But that's beside the point. Nothing can excuse your superficial view of people who are Muslim. Which is the big issue with you and other Islamophobes. If you engaged and knew Muslims, there is no way you would believe the things that you are saying. Just because the governments of some of these countries have laws that are terrible, it doesn't mean that this is a reflection of what all the people think. If you knew Lebanese, Iranians, a Pakistanis, an Egyptians, you would realize how silly a person like you sounds, when you generalize and group them all with one label, because they come from Muslim countries. Even within those countries and ethnic backgrounds, there is a huge variety of people with different beliefs and views on everything.

As I keep mentioning, I've never said "all".

I've acknowledge that there will be a variety of views, but you'd have to be a fool to doubt that a lot of people from these regressive regions will have regressive views.

This is the internet age. There is no excuse to be ignorant. There was a time when you could blame the ignorance on the lack of contact and information. I'm sure not many Muslims live in the rural areas as you seem to be from. But now, information is at the tip of your fingers. If you decide to be lazy and not genuinely learn about the people you fear so much, then this is a problem with you.

For the record, I've lived in many of Canada's major cities, and lived and worked in areas with considerable Muslim presence. My interaction with Muslims has been, for the most part, not bad at all. All of my Muslim classmates and co-workers have been Canadian-raised people who grew up in this country in communities where learning to co-exist was unavoidable. I don't worry about that. What I do worry about is the day when some of Canada's cities have ethnic enclaves that are large enough and homogeneous enough that people no longer have any need to integrate and learn to interact. For a non-Muslim example of what I'm concerned about, consider Richmond BC, where a Chinese person could theoretically live their whole life without having to learn to speak English or interact with anyone from outside their ethnic community. Once things get to that point, do people have a reason to integrate with society? For another non-Muslim example, consider the Williamsburg area of New York, where the Hasidic Jewish community harrasses people who don't comply with their religious views.

My choice to move to a smaller community has nothing to do with avoiding non-white people. If it were I chose poorly as my town has a significant aboriginal presence, a significant Sikh community, significant numbers of temporary agricultural workers, and Asian tourists all year around.

I moved here to avoid big city traffic, pollution, crime, and chaos. And to be in a place where I can enjoy nature.

-k

[marcus]

As I keep mentioning, I've never said "all".

I've acknowledge that there will be a variety of views, but you'd have to be a fool to doubt that a lot of people from these regressive regions will have regressive views.

I'd love to discuss the other comments you made about different cultures and integration, but first, you need to come clean and take ownership for the disgusting comment that was made. Perhaps you were drinking wine and watched a few too many Donald Trump and Bill Maher videos before you made the post and you don't generally feel that way, or perhaps you really do feel that way, which you should just be straight forward about.

All of the comments and explanations you're trying to make will not absolve you. The hateful, bigoted comment was very clear:

Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

We have over one million Muslims in Canada and majority of them are Middle Eastern immigrants. For you to say "I didn't say all" doesn't change what you said. For you to say, that "I didn't mean the Canadians Muslim population", does not change what you said either. Which is "Middle Eastern immigrants" who were once not Canadians and who once lived in the Middle East (which actually proves that Middle Easterners can integrate and be part of a vibrant culture). But for a second, let us pretend that you're able to separate the two; The generalizing, sweeping comment is still a very hateful, bigoted and wrong comment to make to describe people from the Middle East.

Edited November 26, 2015 by marcus

[Argus]

Non-Muslims keep saying this, and Muslims keep saying something else.

Really? What do Muslims keep saying? That anyone can feel free to re-interpret the Koran any way they like?

[Argus]

Those are people, Kimmy.

Yes, some of them, perhaps even most of them, hold attitudes as bad as many (albeit a minority of) Canadians do

So you're basically agreeing that 'perhaps even most' of the people we bring here from the middle east are going to have unacceptable social views, particularly about women, Jews and gays. That might not be a problem to you, since I presume that you are neither. Do you understand how women, Jews and gays might have a somewhat different view?

[Argus]

This confuses me. Are these doctors, engineers, teachers and civil servants who gay bash, gang rape, burn synagogues and have stone age attitudes?

How many of them are doctors, engineers, teachers and civil servants vs pimps, drug dealers, gang members, and rapists?

Someone here who is most definitely on the Left said earlier that 70% of the people in prison in France are Muslims. We see cites about Muslim violence in a variety of other countries, especially sexual violence. I know for a fact that almost every time there is an arrest in Ottawa for street violence, especially the use of guns, the detainee has a Muslim name. But Canada keeps no statistics on crime by religion or race, so one can't ascertain one way or the other just how widespread crime is among this group. I can certainly attest to the fact that they are heavily represented in the city's subsidized housing projects.

[Argus]

Majority of these immigrants that you saw in your stats and who have come to Canada, have come through the skilled worker category.

That's simply not the case. Thirty five percent of immigrants come in under the family reunification program or humanitarian reasons.

But that's beside the point. Nothing can excuse your superficial view of people who are Muslim. Which is the big issue with you and other Islamophobes. If you engaged and knew Muslims, there is no way you would believe the things that you are saying.

I worked with Muslims for years, mostly Somali, Iranian and Lebanese. The main things I took from it were they didn't like Jews, and were particularly fond of conspiracy theories involving Jewish bankers, were suspicious of, yet admiring of the United States, and were as misogynistic as anyone I ever met. They are all also very religious, though they could be hypocritical about it in the sense of fornication outside marriage and the consumption of alcohol and drugs.

Just because the governments of some of these countries have laws that are terrible, it doesn't mean that this is a reflection of what all the people think.

Public opinion polls have demonstrated, however, that the social views of the population of the middle east, and most Muslim countries, are indeed highly reflective of government laws in terms of women and gays.

If you knew Lebanese, Iranians, a Pakistanis, an Egyptians, you would realize how silly a person like you sounds,

Hey, I like my Canadian born Egyptian neighbour. He seems pretty cool. He is adamant, though that women must cover their hair at all times so as to not arouse men, because that's in the Koran, you see. Don't know any Pakistanis at the moment. Why do you suppose they would be so different from all the ones being arrested for child rape in the UK?

when you generalize and group them all with one label, because they come from Muslim countries. Even within those countries and ethnic backgrounds, there is a huge variety of people with different beliefs and views on everything.

You cannot be a Muslim and have a wide variety of views on what the Koran says. Islam is pretty clear on the inferiority of women and what is to be done to gay people. It even codifies these in law. It's pretty clear about how nasty Jews are too.I realize people like you don't get that some people actually believe in their religion, because you don't believe in yours. But in the Muslim world that's the norm, not the exception.

[Argus]

Obviously they could not keep their families safe where they were, and land routes end at closed borders with tear gas.

No one would choose these boats unless they were the only option left.

They were safe in Turkey and Lebanon. Then they went to Greece and Italy. They were surely safe in Greece and Italy, but no one wanted to stay there. On they marched, north, through Macedonia, through Serbia, through Croatia, through Hungary.

Safe, safe safe, but not good enough. On they marched, headed for the rich northern states, furious at anyone who stood in their way, screaming abuse, shaking fists, demanding to be let to go where they wanted.

These are not refugees from fear and violence. They are economic migrants who seek the good life.

[Argus]

I'd love to discuss the other comments you made about different cultures and integration, but first, you need to come clean and take ownership for the disgusting comment that was made.

The only people who seem to have a major problem with her comments are you and a few others on the extreme Left who insist on ignoring reality. "stone age" is not an inappropriate description of the hateful social views of much of the Muslim world, particularly those in the middle east.

[Guest]

The only people who seem to have a major problem with her comments are you and a few others on the extreme Left who insist on ignoring reality. "stone age" is not an inappropriate description of the hateful social views of much of the Muslim world, particularly those in the middle east.

Actually, I suspect people in the Stone Age probably had fewer insane religious views than some in the Middle East. Probably a liitle unfair to the Stone Age.

(Outrage antidote! I said "some")

[notca]

That was my initial thought too, but then think about those people who jumped to their death from the burning towers on 9/11. Not quite the same, but when you only have a few options, and they are equally deadly, you gotta make the best choice. In the case of the Syrian refugees it's either stay put and risk getting blown up/shot and not much of a future there, or, a dangerous trek across water to a possible better life. I'd rather me and my family drown of our own accord than to be murdered at the hands of some power hungry P.O.S.

We would all have to make our own choices. The people who jumped from the burning towers on 9/11 were in charge of their own lives. They weren't taking their children with them. Also, there was no safe place there at all. To remain was certain death by fire.

If I remained in a war torn land I would take a chance on whatever I felt was safest for my child. God help me, I would even feign fellowship with ISIS for the sake of my child. But never for myself.

What if some of the people, the young single men in particular, who are fleeing ISIS had stayed and formed an underground to fight them on their own turf and terms? Many are already doing that and with the numbers of the refugees added, they would become quite a force.

[marcus]

Deleted.

Edited November 26, 2015 by marcus

[notca]

That's simply not the case. Thirty five percent of immigrants come in under the family reunification program or humanitarian reasons.

I worked with Muslims for years, mostly Somali, Iranian and Lebanese. The main things I took from it were they didn't like Jews, and were particularly fond of conspiracy theories involving Jewish bankers, were suspicious of, yet admiring of the United States, and were as misogynistic as anyone I ever met. They are all also very religious, though they could be hypocritical about it in the sense of fornication outside marriage and the consumption of alcohol and drugs.

Public opinion polls have demonstrated, however, that the social views of the population of the middle east, and most Muslim countries, are indeed highly reflective of government laws in terms of women and gays.

Hey, I like my Canadian born Egyptian neighbour. He seems pretty cool. He is adamant, though that women must cover their hair at all times so as to not arouse men, because that's in the Koran, you see. Don't know any Pakistanis at the moment. Why do you suppose they would be so different from all the ones being arrested for child rape in the UK?

You cannot be a Muslim and have a wide variety of views on what the Koran says. Islam is pretty clear on the inferiority of women and what is to be done to gay people. It even codifies these in law. It's pretty clear about how nasty Jews are too.I realize people like you don't get that some people actually believe in their religion, because you don't believe in yours. But in the Muslim world that's the norm, not the exception.

Everything you say here is true. I have found the Koran contradictory on many matters. It does say in some places to treat people of other religions kindly and in other places instructs Muslims to kill them.

But on the matters of the inferiority of women, homosexuality, adultery, marriage laws and many other issues, I found no contradictions.

[notca]

Here's another thing to ponder on. If Muslim men are aroused by a woman's uncovered hair, how do you think they react to Western girls who wear short shorts, halter tops, bikinis, and Heaven Help Them, a woman baring her breasts publicly?

Woman are held in such low regard in Islamic countries that the men have never been taught to control their biological urges. They most likely think that the skimpy way Western women dress is an invitation to sexual activity or even that those women deserve it.

This might account for the high number of reports of rape committed by Muslims.

[marcus]

I worked with Muslims for years, mostly Somali, Iranian and Lebanese. The main things I took from it were they didn't like Jews, and were particularly fond of conspiracy theories involving Jewish bankers, were suspicious of, yet admiring of the United States, and were as misogynistic as anyone I ever met. They are all also very religious, though they could be hypocritical about it in the sense of fornication outside marriage and the consumption of alcohol and drugs.

I've worked with whites who didn't like Muslims or other ethnic groups. They were fond of conspiracy theories, like, "they're taking over our jobs". Which kind of killed another argument they tried to make, which was: "they go on welfare!". These whites that I'm talking about worked in our distribution warehouse. My brother went to Dalhousie with some white guys who were as misogynistic as anyone:

Dalhousie dentistry report: University had culture of 'misogyny, homophobia and racism'

I've also worked with some Muslims who were misogynistic, sexist and racist, just like some some whites I've met.

I've also worked with Muslims who were so awesome that I call them friends. They also have some of the best food and the most fun get togethers.

Hey, I like my Canadian born Egyptian neighbour. He seems pretty cool. He is adamant, though that women must cover their hair at all times so as to not arouse men, because that's in the Koran, you see.

My Muslim friends and acquaintance, on the other hand, don't give a shit about that. Point being, there is a huge variety of people. You and I are a perfect example of that. I'm assuming you're white also, but I don't hold the same views and beliefs that you share on here.

Don't know any Pakistanis at the moment. Why do you suppose they would be so different from all the ones being arrested for child rape in the UK?

Why do you think that this Pakistani rape gang is not different than the 200,000+ Pakistanis in England?

Why do you think that this white rape gang (see below) is not different than the other white people in England?

You see Argus? You keep doing this. There are two elements to your arguments:

#1 - Majority of your statistics, that you're so fond of throwing around, are incomplete and do not reflect a whole culture or religion. Like the one you tried to make not long ago were generalized questions were asked in some Muslim countries. Within those statistics, it was evident that each country had different views, but you tried to take the average and then apply it to EVERY Muslim. Including Muslims from countries that were not in the poll, like Syrians, Iranians, Canadian Muslims, American Muslims, etc. etc.

#2 - You find a really really bad incident that was committed by Muslim(s) and then try to say that this is what Muslims are all about. A perfect example of that is the Pakistani rape gang that you and other bigots love to use as one of your favourite go to.

Are all whites like these people?

'Vile and depraved' UK gang raped and abused babies

Members of a paedophile network whose crimes were described as the most "vile and depraved" police had seen have been convicted of arranging abuse.

The UK-wide gang raped and abused babies and young children, streaming the attacks online to fellow members.

John Denham, 49, and Matthew Stansfield, 34, had denied plotting sex crimes against the victims.

They were found guilty after a trial at Bristol Crown Court. Five other members had earlier admitted various offences.

The group used the internet to plan and stream abuse and tried to groom pregnant women in order to find new victims, the trial heard.

Five others pleaded guilty to offences including rape of a child and conspiracy to rape at an earlier hearing. They are:

• Robin Hollyson, 30, from Bedfordshire
• Christopher Knight, 35, from Manchester
• David Harsley, 51, from Hull
• Matthew Lisk, 32, from East Sussex
• Adam Toms, 33, from Somerset

[marcus]

How many of them are doctors, engineers, teachers and civil servants vs pimps, drug dealers, gang members, and rapists?

Someone here who is most definitely on the Left said earlier that 70% of the people in prison in France are Muslims. We see cites about Muslim violence in a variety of other countries, especially sexual violence. I know for a fact that almost every time there is an arrest in Ottawa for street violence, especially the use of guns, the detainee has a Muslim name. But Canada keeps no statistics on crime by religion or race, so one can't ascertain one way or the other just how widespread crime is among this group. I can certainly attest to the fact that they are heavily represented in the city's subsidized housing projects.

From the information I remember looking at, the highest percentage of ethnicity per capita in Canadian prisons are aboriginals. It's not Muslims. In the U.S., it's blacks. Not Muslims.

So what does this say? Is it the religion? Is it ethnicity? No. There is a direct correlation between the prison population and the level of poverty.

Poverty Fueling Muslim Anti-West Tendencies: Study

I've driven though some of the ghettos in the suburbs of Paris and there is a big contrast between there and other neighbourhoods in France. Including vibrant Muslim neighbourhoods that anyone would feel safe walking through. These ghettos were setup decades ago by France and left there without much support. They are the perfect target for extremists. Marginalized young men, who notice the contrast and who feel marginalized. It's easy to fuel their anger and create even more resentment towards the people who live much differently than they do.

The same goes with some black areas in the U.S. Does the high crime rate have anything to do with religion? Of course not. It has to do with socio-economical reasons.

[eyeball]

The only people who seem to have a major problem with her comments are you and a few others on the extreme Left who insist on ignoring reality. "stone age" is not an inappropriate description of the hateful social views of much of the Muslim world, particularly those in the middle east.

You're comparing and disparaging Muslims against another people you also know little to nothing about. You have no more idea about the social views of people living in the stone age than you do about people living today. The most ridiculous thing about this comparison is how completely oblivious it is to the rather shitty social views our own society clung to up until just a few generations ago. I bet there was a generation of great-grand pappy Argus' and great-aunty kimmies who fought just as bitterly to cling onto them too.

This stupid comparison is like just about every other stupid conservative argument that is used to denigrate Muslims - they always leap-frog over any period(s) of history or social development that might highlight or underscore our own society's more savage aspects and especially as these relate to our culpability in prolonging and retarding a natural development amongst some Muslim societies that most every un-molested society has been able to undergo when left to their own devices.

[bush_cheney2004]

....This stupid comparison is like just about every other stupid conservative argument that is used to denigrate Muslims - they always leap-frog over any period(s) of history or social development that might highlight or underscore our own society's more savage aspects and especially as these relate to our culpability in prolonging and retarding a natural development amongst some Muslim societies that most every un-molested society has been able to undergo when left to their own devices.

Logical failure, as many other "molested" societies around the world have developed just fine.