Islamophobia in Canada

[OftenWrong]

13 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Pure OftenWrong BS. Muslims have been in Canada and the US for a long time. You are reacting in a knee jerk brainwashed fashion. Sane people are not of your "ours" for you folks don't define what are cultural attitudes, you define close minded gullibility. All you Otherphobes haven't been on the same R bandwagon regarding Hutterites, Mennonites, ... . 

But you were likely one of the ones who were against other dark skinned immigrants. 

Sorry but I can't make sense of your gibberish. With all these posts, it seems you've worked yourself into a frenzy of complete outrage. You should go to your quiet room for a while.

[capricorn]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

 You should go to your quiet room

You mean "padded".

[OftenWrong]

19 minutes ago, jacee said:

"Cultural attitudes" can change, and often have and still do from one generation of immigrants to the next generation of their children born here.

And the law takes care of any illegal behaviours.

There is no valid argument for discriminating against Muslims in immigration.

Yes they need to change. They need to become like us, not try to make us like them as some want to do.

[OftenWrong]

forum software

Edited August 7, 2017 by OftenWrong

[Argus]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

"Cultural attitudes" can change, and often have and still do from one generation of immigrants to the next generation of their children born here.

They can, but it's much harder when those attitudes are reinforced by religion, as is the case here. The first generation of Muslims born in Canada is MORE religious than their immigrants parents, not less.

Something else about this generation of immigrants which didn't exist in the past. They travel "home" a LOT. Every time you travel home, especially when you bring the kids with you, as they do, it reinforces those old attitudes in you and teaches them to your kids.

2 hours ago, jacee said:

There is no valid argument for discriminating against Muslims in immigration.

Of course there is. They make lousy immigrants. They have cultural attitudes not just different from ours but implacably hostile to them. They're slower to assimilate, and they earn less than immigrants from other regions. There is no valid argument for bringing in immigrants from those regions of the world.

[jacee]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes they need to change. They need to become like us, not try to make us like them as some want to do.

There will always be another wave, another country disrupted.

And then all of our kids will go to school together, respect each other, and succeed.

That's what's working well in Canada.

The kids show us how it works.  

[hot enough]

On 8/6/2017 at 10:19 AM, Argus said:

It's 241 bloody pages long. Just how long do you think it can stick to a particular narrow topic?

The grand hypocrite jumps up. You are one of the first to use this when the going gets tough, Argus, defender of the right. 

[hot enough]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes they need to change. They need to become like us, not try to make us like them as some want to do.

So much for freedom of the individual. You conservatives are such flaming hypocrites!

[betsy]

7 hours ago, jacee said:

There will always be another wave, another country disrupted.

And then all of our kids will go to school together, respect each other, and succeed.

That's what's working well in Canada.

The kids show us how it works.  

I can visualize you prancing to "it's a small world after all...."  You can also go into the wild......and hug a bear. Who wouldn't reciprocate affection?

The same bull that sold us "all societies are equal,"  that's why Europe is in such a mess!

 

Some ideology aren't into making any compromises.  It's either you capitulate or face the consequence.

 

If we ever get invaded by Isis, all you have to do is, do as they say....and believe as they do. 

Be "resilient" as a bullied kid.  Maybe, even give them a list of known associates who are gays, lesbians, and transgendered.....to prove you're indeed transformed from your evil ways.

That should work well, huh?

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

9 hours ago, hot enough said:

So much for freedom of the individual. You conservatives are such flaming hypocrites!

Says the one who supports and defends the ultimate in conservatism - Islamist despots! 

Those who impose walking tents to make a fashion statement! Those who oppress women!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does that make you?  Can you guess?  

 

That makes you not only the ultimate hypocrite - but you're up there to being the ultimate in ......(uhhh, I might get banned)........

Edited August 8, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Says the one who supports and defends the ultimate in conservatism - Islamist despots! 

What does that make you?  Can you guess?  

That makes you not only the ultimate hypocrite - but you're up there to being the ultimate in ......(uhhh, I might get banned)........

Betsy, the evidence free zone. Why are you now lying? Isn't that a sin? Isn't it a sin to bear false witness, Betsy? These don't seem very christian of you. 

[jacee]

 

Update on reasons for hate crime charges against Kevin Johnston:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2017/08/08/hate-laws-put-reasonable-limits-on-freedom-of-speech.html

“It is time for us to take our masculinity back and beat the living hell out of these [Muslims]. Pin them down on the ground, and beat them until they pass out. And when they’re passed out, you beat them further; and when they’re on the ground passed out, kick them, break a kneecap, break an elbow, press their hands backwards turn their wrists sideways, start breaking these guys down.”

This is a particularly egregious excerpt from one of Kevin J. Johnston’s Freedom Report videos, in which he angrily encourages Canadians to attack and injure Muslims. Johnston was recently charged under Section 319(2) of the Criminal Code because he is promoting hatred and advocating violence, not because he is criticizing Islam.

It seems clear to me that he is actively challenging the hate laws.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

 

 

 

Update on reasons for hate crime charges against Kevin Johnston:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2017/08/08/hate-laws-put-reasonable-limits-on-freedom-of-speech.html

“It is time for us to take our masculinity back and beat the living hell out of these [Muslims]. Pin them down on the ground, and beat them until they pass out. And when they’re passed out, you beat them further; and when they’re on the ground passed out, kick them, break a kneecap, break an elbow, press their hands backwards turn their wrists sideways, start breaking these guys down.”

This is a particularly egregious excerpt from one of Kevin J. Johnston’s Freedom Report videos, in which he angrily encourages Canadians to attack and injure Muslims. Johnston was recently charged under Section 319(2) of the Criminal Code because he is promoting hatred and advocating violence, not because he is criticizing Islam.

It seems clear to me that he is actively challenging the hate laws.

He's breaking the law, period.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, jacee said:

There will always be another wave, another country disrupted.

And then all of our kids will go to school together, respect each other, and succeed.

That's what's working well in Canada.

The kids show us how it works.  

The kids are wearing hijabs and burkas in growing numbers, and imbibing the values which go along with that - that female sexuality is dangerous and immoral and must be repressed and suppressed, and that females are the inferior of males.

[PIK]

14 hours ago, jacee said:

There will always be another wave, another country disrupted.

And then all of our kids will go to school together, respect each other, and succeed.

That's what's working well in Canada.

The kids show us how it works.  

OMG.

Edited August 8, 2017 by PIK

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

OMG.

Do you have some kind of comment or is this going to be it from you on the topic ?  I hope it's the latter.

[PIK]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Do you have some kind of comment or is this going to be it from you on the topic ?  I hope it's the latter.

On that one, it is. after what she said all I could get out of myself was a OMG. I will try and do better the next time.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, PIK said:

On that one, it is. after what she said all I could get out of myself was a OMG. I will try and do better the next time.

Fair's fair...

[PIK]

... Wrong forum.

Edited August 8, 2017 by PIK

[WestCoastRunner]

On 8/7/2017 at 3:17 PM, OftenWrong said:

Yes they need to change. They need to become like us, not try to make us like them as some want to do.

Islamist Feminists are working towards change.  These movements are just not being reported on.  

"But Muslim women are fighting back. While despotic governments and extremists battle for power, Islamic scholars, community activists, and ordinary Muslims are waging a peaceful jihad on male authority, demanding what they say are God- given rights to gender equality and justice.  From Cambridge to Cairo to Jakarta, women are going back to Islam’s classical texts and questioning the way men have read them for centuries. In the Middle East, activists are contesting outdated family laws based on Islamic jurisprudence, which give men the power in marriages, divorces, and custody issues. In Europe and the United States, women are chipping away at the customs that have had a chilling effect on women praying in mosques or holding leadership positions."

"While the overall message of the Quran is unchanging, say Muslim reformers, new generations must find their own readings of the sacred texts. As it stands, Islamic fiqh, or jurisprudence, was largely forged during the medieval period, when women’s roles and the concept of marriage and male authority were very different. Why, they ask, should the way that 10th-century Baghdadi men read the Quran dictate the rights of a 21st-century woman? To the reactionaries who charge that these reformers are deviating from Islam, Islamic feminists point out that there is a difference between Islamic jurisprudence—a man-made legal scaffolding developed for the specific conditions of medieval Muslim life—and the divine law itself, which is eternal, unchanging and calls for justice. It’s not the Quran they question, but how particular interpretations of it have hardened into truth. “The problem has never been with the text, but with the context,” legal anthropologist Ziba Mir-Hosseini told the Musawah seminar."

Some excellent readings can be found here:

Muslim Women Are Fighting To Redefine Islam as a Religion of Equality

America Abroad: Understanding Islamic Feminism

Q&A: Talk explores role of Islamic feminism

Sisters in Islam: Empowering voices for change

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Islamist Feminists are working towards change.  These movements are just not being reported on.  

"But Muslim women are fighting back. While despotic governments and extremists battle for power, Islamic scholars, community activists, and ordinary Muslims are waging a peaceful jihad on male authority, demanding what they say are God- given rights to gender equality and justice.  From Cambridge to Cairo to Jakarta, women are going back to Islam’s classical texts and questioning the way men have read them for centuries. In the Middle East, activists are contesting outdated family laws based on Islamic jurisprudence, which give men the power in marriages, divorces, and custody issues. In Europe and the United States, women are chipping away at the customs that have had a chilling effect on women praying in mosques or holding leadership positions."

"While the overall message of the Quran is unchanging, say Muslim reformers, new generations must find their own readings of the sacred texts. As it stands, Islamic fiqh, or jurisprudence, was largely forged during the medieval period, when women’s roles and the concept of marriage and male authority were very different. Why, they ask, should the way that 10th-century Baghdadi men read the Quran dictate the rights of a 21st-century woman? To the reactionaries who charge that these reformers are deviating from Islam, Islamic feminists point out that there is a difference between Islamic jurisprudence—a man-made legal scaffolding developed for the specific conditions of medieval Muslim life—and the divine law itself, which is eternal, unchanging and calls for justice. It’s not the Quran they question, but how particular interpretations of it have hardened into truth. “The problem has never been with the text, but with the context,” legal anthropologist Ziba Mir-Hosseini told the Musawah seminar."

Some excellent readings can be found here:

Muslim Women Are Fighting To Redefine Islam as a Religion of Equality

America Abroad: Understanding Islamic Feminism

Q&A: Talk explores role of Islamic feminism

Sisters in Islam: Empowering voices for change

Thank you for an intelligent answer. I can only hope they succeed in trying to reform those aspects of their culture, and the West should do whatever it can to help them.

[Argus]

23 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Thank you for an intelligent answer. I can only hope they succeed in trying to reform those aspects of their culture, and the West should do whatever it can to help them.

The problem is they have little influence, and where one does state the case in a forthright manner she often gets not only attacked by the Islamists, but by Western progressives and feminists for daring to say bad things about Islam.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/bari-weiss-why-are-americas-progressive-feminists-embracing-this-madness/wcm/a52ae57f-93bc-4c06-b55d-4720d5603422

Edited August 8, 2017 by Argus

[WestCoastRunner]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

The problem is they have little influence, and where one does state the case in a forthright manner she often gets not only attacked by the Islamists, but by Western progressives and feminists for daring to say bad things about Islam.

How do you know they have little influence?  Did you even read the sources provided?  Of course they will get attacked, whether it's through social media, their communities etc but it's a fight they are willing to undertake.

Some progress reported (that I have the time to find right now):

"Egypt, where one of the world’s most influential centers of Islamic study is squaring its teachings with the changing status of women. In Morocco, recent changes at a courthouse examining Muslim family law are making it easier for women to divorce, inherit property, and gain custody of their children. In France, a look at how extreme secularism may be protecting or persecuting Muslim populations. And in the United States, visit the country’s first all-female mosque, and learn how one progressive Muslim feminist is expressing herself and her religion in a surprising way — with comedy."

"As the famous Kyai Hussein Mohammed, one the first ulama converts to the cause of women’s rights in Indonesia said, the gender training he underwent forced him to find a way to reconcile between his belief in a God that is just and the discrimination women suffered. "In the largest Muslim country in the world, the progressive Islamic scholarship that dominates the religious education system, and the resilience and confidence among those in government and in religious authority, among the leadership (male and female) of Nahdlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, and among the graduates of the pesantren and State Islamic universities and institutes, stand them in good stead that it is their belief in a compassionate and just Islam within a plural Indonesia that will prevail."  http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.1487.6

 

[dialamah]

23 hours ago, Argus said:

They can, but it's much harder when those attitudes are reinforced by religion, as is the case here. The first generation of Muslims born in Canada is MORE religious than their immigrants parents, not less.

 Being "more religious" does not necessarily equal being less tolerant (though it certainly can).    

 

[jacee]

8 hours ago, bcsapper said:

He's breaking the law, period.

Yes, for sure.

These white supremacists would like to see the hate laws struck down.

So he'll likely want to take it to the Supreme Court.