Guest Posted August 11, 2017 Report Posted August 11, 2017 9 hours ago, Argus said: But adults learn from experience. I mean, nobody ever told me a thing about Chinese or Arabs or Muslims or Hindus and the like when I was a child. My first experience in life with anyone not white was with a Lebanese guy in grade seven. I didn't know he WAS a Lebanese guy. I just knew he was a dick and I didn't like him. His being Lebanese was not relevant to that. His buddy was blonde and he was a dick too. There will always be true racists. There always have been. I'm not sure why. I don't really grasp why so many people have such an issue with Jews, for example. There seems no sensible reason for it (other than those weird Hasidim, of course). But most of what the progressives like to call 'racism' today is nothing of the sort. It's a dislike/discomfort/disapproval based on experience, knowledge and judgement. So they try to brainwash kids as much as possible into that 'we are the world' sort of thinking, where all people and cultures are the same, but kids grow up, and that sort of nonsense only works on the weak-minded. I agree. I could never figure out racism. Actually not liking someone simply because of their race.
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Islamophobic woman crashes meet and greet of Jagmeet Singh to heckle him about Sharia law. Edited September 10, 2017 by dialamah
DogOnPorch Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 Sikhs carry the Kirpan because of Islam's invading Mughal Empire.... Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Sikhs carry the Kirpan because of Islam's invading Mughal Empire.... A bit of irony in that she said she was a woman's advocate and he's a Sikh. Sikhism considers women as equals - in theory. In practice, of course, Sikhism comes from India, where women are anything BUT equal. Thus we had that Supreme Court ruling the other day allowing the government to deport a pair of Sikhs back to India to face murder charges in the honor killing of their daughter for daring to marry a man against their wishes. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 This seems to point out that problems live in a culture, not theology. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: This seems to point out that problems live in a culture, not theology. Where does one begin and the other end? Perhaps it was the pre-existing culture in the middle east which caused Islam to be so misogynistic. If so that mentality has infused the religion, and so wherever the religion has spread, the misogynistic mentality spreads with it. I mean, life for women is certainly better in most of Malaysia and Indonesia than in most of the Middle East, but they're still far from equal. 90% of Muslim women in Malaysia have been subjected to FGM, and laws in Indonesia on what women can do, how they can dress, and where they can go are increasing as Islam becomes more conservative. Edited September 10, 2017 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 50 minutes ago, Argus said: Where does one begin and the other end? Perhaps it was the pre-existing culture in the middle east which caused Islam to be so misogynistic. We don't know. Perhaps. But attributing it to holy books is to me more problematic as: -It makes it easier to use blunt-force attributes to discriminate, which are less accurate. Culture is more specific. -The books may have given root to the culture, but the culture - at least current culture - didn't cause the books. -You can directly associate culture to nations and statistics. The relationship between the roots of culture, such as theology/books, and culture are harder to assess. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Argus said: Where does one begin and the other end? Perhaps it was the pre-existing culture in the middle east which caused Islam to be so misogynistic. All Abrahamic religions, really. Two of them have crawled out of the abyss, but Islam is still hovering there. While Islam may offer the worst examples of misogyny and oppressive practices in the Middle East, it's also true that many of those practices are shared by non-Muslims. This is why I, personally, prefer to consider them cultural and not specifically Islamic.
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, dialamah said: All Abrahamic religions, really. Two of them have crawled out of the abyss, but Islam is still hovering there. Yes, and they crawled out because of external pressure from politics in a pluralistic society which Islam does not yet have. It came from difference of opinion being allowed. No wonder the religions all have fought wars against dissenters. 3 minutes ago, dialamah said: While Islam may offer the worst examples of misogyny and oppressive practices in the Middle East, it's also true that many of those practices are shared by non-Muslims. This is why I, personally, prefer to consider them cultural and not specifically Islamic. Like in Africa... Asia... It's tougher to make a case to ban a culture though. Easier to be called racist, too, so we have these go-nowhere spins. -- -- Maybe AI will provide a list of filters for immigration that will take subjectivity out of the equation... shut up the racists and xenophobes and white pride types... provide a criteria and stop the fights. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said: Maybe AI will provide a list of filters for immigration that will take subjectivity out of the equation... shut up the racists and xenophobes and white pride types... provide a criteria and stop the fights. I don't see the point in banning someone due to 'cultural' practices. If someone comes from an African village that believes albino body parts are necessary for witchcraft, there is no guarantee that they personally will also believe. Even if they do, they will be exposed to different information which may change their belief, especially in second and third generations, and that information may also be passed back to their village and create change there as well.
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, dialamah said: I don't see the point in banning someone due to 'cultural' practices. Really ? If someone's practice isn't compatible at all with Canadian values and that someone refuses to let go of them then why not ? 24 minutes ago, dialamah said: If someone comes from an African village that believes albino body parts are necessary for witchcraft, there is no guarantee that they personally will also believe. Even if they do, they will be exposed to different information which may change their belief, especially in second and third generations, and that information may also be passed back to their village and create change there as well. Maybe but the AI will tell us. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: We don't know. Perhaps. But attributing it to holy books is to me more problematic as: -It makes it easier to use blunt-force attributes to discriminate, which are less accurate. Culture is more specific. -The books may have given root to the culture, but the culture - at least current culture - didn't cause the books. -You can directly associate culture to nations and statistics. The relationship between the roots of culture, such as theology/books, and culture are harder to assess. All of that really boils down to your first sentence. We don't really know. Which means blunt force and generalities are all we have to guide us - at least in the absence of careful individual screening. Edited September 10, 2017 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 49 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Yes, and they crawled out because of external pressure from politics in a pluralistic society which Islam does not yet have. It came from difference of opinion being allowed. No wonder the religions all have fought wars against dissenters. Which is one of the reasons so many Muslim reformers have criticized Western liberals for their attacks on critics of Islam. I mean, the Southern Poverty Law center says Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz are Islamophobic extremists for their critiques of Islam. And of course, we know what the Left has to say about (gasp!) white guys who criticize Islam! Oh the horror! The horror! https://www.document.dk/2017/03/29/white-liberals-attack-brown-islamic-dissidents/ "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 51 minutes ago, Argus said: All of that really boils down to your first sentence. We don't really know. Which means blunt force and generalities are all we have to guide us - at least in the absence of careful individual screening. That's the point. It's not "all we have". We have other factors that are more specific. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: Really ? If someone's practice isn't compatible at all with Canadian values and that someone refuses to let go of them then why not ? Because change has to start somewhere. And if it starts in Canada when immigrants are exposed to different and more progressive ideas, and flows back to these regions, then I think that is ok.
Michael Hardner Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, dialamah said: Because change has to start somewhere. And if it starts in Canada when immigrants are exposed to different and more progressive ideas, and flows back to these regions, then I think that is ok. I'm open to it... as I'm also open to the idea that they don't/won't change either. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Argus said: All of that really boils down to your first sentence. We don't really know. Which means blunt force and generalities are all we have to guide us - at least in the absence of careful individual screening. I don't like the implication here that we're willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. We have plenty of evidence that immigrants from Muslim majority countries absorb the cultural values of the Western countries to which they move. Muslims in Western countries are 'progressing' Islam and they are helping Muslims in Muslim-majority countries 'progress' Islam. Assuming that every immigrant from Muslim majority countries is not and cannot be compatible with Canadian culture is not supported by any evidence and denies those Muslims who have and do embrace the same values, and who are working to change their religion/culture to be more inclusive and equal.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 1 minute ago, dialamah said: .... Assuming that every immigrant from Muslim majority countries is not and cannot be compatible with Canadian culture is not supported by any evidence and denies those Muslims who have and do embrace the same values, and who are working to change their religion/culture to be more inclusive and equal. What is the "Canadian culture" that every Muslim immigrant could/would aspire to anyway ? The question has loomed large for decades...Canadian culture and identity....how would "compatibility" be measured ? Economics trumps Virtue.
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 35 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: I'm open to it... as I'm also open to the idea that they don't/won't change either. That does not seem to be the case. This 2009 report from Harvard University concluded: Quote Using this framework, we demonstrate that on average, the basic social values of Muslim migrants fall roughly mid‐way between those prevailing in their country of origin and their country of destination. We conclude that Muslim migrants do not move to Western countries with rigidly fixed attitudes; instead, they gradually absorb much of the host culture, as assimilation theories suggest.
dialamah Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: What is the "Canadian culture" that every Muslim immigrant could/would aspire to anyway ? We knows it when we sees it.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Posted September 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, dialamah said: That does not seem to be the case. This 2009 report from Harvard University concluded: Then why are the Europoeans struggling with Muslim "assimilation" ? Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, dialamah said: That does not seem to be the case. This 2009 report from Harvard University concluded: I will have a look. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Then why are the Europoeans struggling with Muslim "assimilation" ? I've heard rumors to that effect. Unfortunately, every time I tried to follow them up with some kind of credible source, I was unsuccessful so at this point in time, I'm undecided just how accurate these rumors are. To whatever extent it is true, I would guess that a sudden influx of desperate refugees, as opposed to a more measured and controlled immigration, is at least partly why. We in Canada do not face that problem from Muslims, since we are much harder to reach from Muslim-majority countries. Apparently, our near-uncontrollable influx of desperate refugees will come from from regions South of us.
Michael Hardner Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 12 hours ago, dialamah said: That does not seem to be the case. This 2009 report from Harvard University concluded: Well, ok. Your report seems to assess what 'is' and indicates that immigrants who come here from repressive societies are somewhere in between the value sets of source and destination nations. But... it doesn't say anything about integration really which is the question. Also, the report is annoying to read, frankly, as the conclusions are mushy and they don't provide an executive summary. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 54 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Well, ok. Your report seems to assess what 'is' and indicates that immigrants who come here from repressive societies are somewhere in between the value sets of source and destination nations. But... it doesn't say anything about integration really which is the question. I posted the article in response to a question about whether Muslim immigrants can't or won't accept cultural norms of Western countries so this feels a little like moving the goalposts to me. But anyway, that they can and do take on new cultural norms and beliefs suggests to me that integration (or assimilation) can be and is successfully achieved.
Recommended Posts