Michael Hardner Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, dialamah said: I posted the article in response to a question about whether Muslim immigrants can't or won't accept cultural norms of Western countries so this feels a little like moving the goalposts to me. Yes, and as I posted above this report talks about 'what is' not 'what will be'. 4 minutes ago, dialamah said: But anyway, that they can and do take on new cultural norms and beliefs suggests to me that integration (or assimilation) can be and is successfully achieved. They 'can' but will they ? Are they ? I don't see anything conclusive in the conclusions: Quote Nevertheless, substantial national differences are apparent, and the gap between Muslim and Western societies is particularly large. They do not concern fundamental disagreement about whether democracy is a desirable form of government. But they do involve tolerance of sexual liberalization and women’s equality—and tolerance is a particularly crucial aspect of a democratic political culture. Do such cultural differences necessarily lead to tensions or even clashes? No. Under high levels of existential insecurity, xenophobia and intolerance are particularly intense and likely to lead to violence. Conversely, conditions of security are conducive to relative tolerance of diversity; indeed, at high levels of existential security, cultural pluralism is regarded as enriching the diversity of lifestyles, the range of choices that are open to people. Cultural differences are a potential fault line that demagogues can exploit to inflame hatred between groups. But there is nothing inevitable about cultural conflict. Depending on conditions, diversity can be seen either as threatening or as a positive contribution Muslim integration towards the innovation and creativity that makes society and economies adapt successfully to new challenges in a globalized world. That's the last paragraph. I don't see that it says much of significance as to what could happen. We could wait a few years and see what happens with Canadian-born and Canadian-raised children of these people. We have time. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 The study looks at decades of immigrant behavior from around the world. We have had Muslims in Canada for 100 years without problems from them. We could go with what experience tells us - namely that Muslims can and do become integrated with Canadian cultural norms. Even the paragraph you quoted makes the point that the issues of cultural differences is exacerbated by the behavior of the society into which they are arriving and not by the behavior of the immigrants themselves. 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Cultural differences are a potential fault line that demagogues can exploit to inflame hatred between groups. But there is nothing inevitable about cultural conflict. Depending on conditions, diversity can be seen either as threatening or as a positive contribution Muslim integration towards the innovation and creativity that makes society and economies adapt successfully to new challenges in a globalized world.
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 22 minutes ago, dialamah said: The study looks at decades of immigrant behavior from around the world. We have had Muslims in Canada for 100 years without problems from them. We could go with what experience tells us - namely that Muslims can and do become integrated with Canadian cultural norms. Even the paragraph you quoted makes the point that the issues of cultural differences is exacerbated by the behavior of the society into which they are arriving and not by the behavior of the immigrants themselves. All three of them...and they were LOST. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 24 minutes ago, dialamah said: The study looks at decades of immigrant behavior from around the world. We have had Muslims in Canada for 100 years without problems from them. We could go with what experience tells us - namely that Muslims can and do become integrated with Canadian cultural norms. I think we need to focus on very recent times. Not that data from 100 years ago are irrelevant but there are significant changes of late, especially: -Publics getting information from unofficial sources, social media -Islamic terrorism being a topic of concern post 9/11 25 minutes ago, dialamah said: Even the paragraph you quoted makes the point that the issues of cultural differences is exacerbated by the behavior of the society into which they are arriving and not by the behavior of the immigrants themselves. Right, but this isn't new/surprising is it ? If we can arrive at a convincing (to various publics) assessment that integration is manageable then we will be in a new era. If not, then we will have new data to assist us in modifying our programs. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dialamah Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: All three of them...and they were LOST. Fanatics don't require company to follow their agenda, just look at yourself as an example. Therefore, whether 3 Muslims or 3 million, it is significant that almost none have engaged in practices not in line with Canadian culture. Edited September 11, 2017 by dialamah
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 19 minutes ago, dialamah said: Fanatics don't require company to follow their agenda, just look at yourself as an example. Therefore, whether 3 Muslims or 3 million, it is significant that almost none have engaged in practices not in line with Canadian culture. Next up: Islam's contributions to frontier Canada. 1 Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 53 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Next up: Islam's contributions to frontier Canada. I'm pretty sure Islam didn't slaughter or dispossess the indigenous barbarians in the process of establishing our enlightened civilization. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, eyeball said: I'm pretty sure Islam didn't slaughter or dispossess the indigenous barbarians in the process of establishing our enlightened civilization. Your 'genocide' never happened in Canada. And guess what? Variola can kill anybody. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Goddess Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, dialamah said: Therefore, whether 3 Muslims or 3 million, it is significant that almost none have engaged in practices not in line with Canadian culture. If by, "practices not in line with Canadian culture" you mean that they have not done something for which they (or any other Canadian) would be arrested and charged for, then maybe. But I wouldn't say that promoting the idea that women must be covered completely or partially at all times, making women sit at the back and use side entrances, vocally speaking out about hatred of Jews, demanding their own enclaves that are run by Sharia law and exclude non-Muslims and refusing to associate with infidels..... would be "practices in line with Canadian culture." I don't see much of a difference between someone who actually kills their daughter or wife in an honour killing, and someone who says, "I'd love to be able to kill my wife or daughter, but unfortuneately the law here doesn't allow it." Edited September 11, 2017 by Goddess "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, Goddess said: If by, "practices not in line with Canadian culture" you mean that they have not done something for which they (or any other Canadian) would be arrested and charged for, then maybe. But I wouldn't say that promoting the idea that women must be covered completely or partially at all times, making women sit at the back and use side entrances, vocally speaking out about hatred of Jews, demanding their own enclaves that are run by Sharia law and exclude non-Muslims and refusing to associate with infidels..... would be "practices in line with Canadian culture." I don't see much of a difference between someone who actually kills their daughter or wife in an honour killing, and someone who says, "I'd love to be able to kill my wife or daughter, but unfortuneately the law here doesn't allow it." Other than plotting to behead the PM in front of a terrorized nation...but everybody does that. 1 Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 40 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Your 'genocide' never happened in Canada. And guess what? Variola can kill anybody. Slaughtering and dispossession certainly happened and Islam was nowhere in sight. Any society can masquerade as being civilized but like beauty it's usually only skin deep and ugly goes right to the bone. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, eyeball said: Slaughtering and dispossession certainly happened and Islam was nowhere in sight. Any society can masquerade as being civilized but like beauty it's usually only skin deep and ugly goes right to the bone. You're free to rewrite history for yourself. I'm not going to buy it. Perhaps dialamah will give it a 'like'. Meanwhile: Islam = Nazism 2 Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 2 hours ago, dialamah said: Fanatics don't require company to follow their agenda, just look at yourself as an example. How sweet. Canada's answer to Linda Sarsour is calling me a fanatic for not kowtowing to her death cult of Islam. What's the penalty for leaving your cult of Islam? 2 Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: You're free to rewrite history for yourself. You're suggesting Islam paved the way for us? I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 Just now, eyeball said: You're suggesting Islam paved the way for us? Do you still beat your wife? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Do you still beat your wife? No, just you, every single time. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: No, just you, every single time. https://blogs.loc.gov/now-see-hear/files/2016/08/DeweyDefeatsTruman.jpg Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 I said you, not Truman. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Argus Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, dialamah said: I don't like the implication here that we're willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not my baby. And I can find babies all over the place. Quote We have plenty of evidence that immigrants from Muslim majority countries absorb the cultural values of the Western countries to which they move. And plenty of evidence that many don't. The cite you posted makes a number of assumptions, but also points out that the degree to which Muslims will assimilate is related to where in the world they come from, and the degree of education and language skills they possess when they get here. Edited September 11, 2017 by Argus 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 6 hours ago, dialamah said: The study looks at decades of immigrant behavior from around the world. We have had Muslims in Canada for 100 years without problems from them. No, we have not. The census taken in 1971 did not even list Muslims separately since there were so few of them. They were lumped in with 'other'. In 1981 they were first counted - immigration having been opened up for some years by then, and there were 98,000 of them. Also, the immigrants we're taking in now are much more conservative and religious than back then. If you went back to Iran or Egypt or Lebanon in 1971 or 1981 you'd find very few women wearing Hijabs, let alone covering their faces. Now the great majority of women do, and the numbers increase each year - as they do in Canada. The Saudi influence has been growing in the Muslim world for decades. 3 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, Argus said: ...the degree to which Muslims will assimilate is related to where in the world they come from, and the degree of education and language skills they possess when they get here. Better variables will give more accurate predictors. Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 1 hour ago, eyeball said: I said you, not Truman. I certainly agree that you live in a la-la land where you imagine inflicting violence on your perceived enemies. More bark than bite. But, I suppose I should take your threats of violence seriously just in case you target my family or other random Canadians in the process. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 4 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Do you still beat your wife? I've answered this for you before and I shall do it on his behalf .. 'only if the Quran tells me to' ..... NEXT !!!
DogOnPorch Posted September 11, 2017 Report Posted September 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, GostHacked said: I've answered this for you before and I shall do it on his behalf .. 'only if the Quran tells me to' ..... NEXT !!! Islam allows men to beat their wives...plural. Since multiple wives are permitted... Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. https://quran.com/4/34 You're free to support such things. But, I imagine the average female would have the drop on you. Be careful...lest you get the beating rather than her. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Zul-Fiqar786 Posted September 12, 2017 Report Posted September 12, 2017 Hitting your wife doesn't mean sending her to the hospital, only expressing your displeasure with bad behavior, similar to how parents should have the right to spank their kids when the latter need disciplining. In a traditional family, the husband is in charge and the head, his wife is expected to follow his lead and support him. Destroying the traditional family has resulted in all the social problems we see today.
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